Sharp increase in anti-Muslim hatred in UK, particularly against women

[Social Media]

 

Since the onset of the Israel-Hamas conflict, the United Kingdom has witnessed a troubling surge in Islamophobic incidents, according to a recent report by Tell Mama, an organization dedicated to monitoring and combating anti-Muslim abuse. The project, which serves as an independent support service for individuals facing anti-Muslim hatred and prejudice, revealed that the number of reported Islamophobic incidents has tripled in the four months following the attacks launched by Hamas.

 

Between October 7 and February 7, Tell Mama documented a staggering 2,010 cases of Islamophobic incidents across the UK. This significant increase marks a sharp rise compared to the 600 cases reported during the same period in the previous year, underscoring the alarming escalation of anti-Muslim sentiments and actions in the country. Of particular concern is the fact that nearly two-thirds of these incidents targeted women, indicating that they have borne the brunt of the abuse.

 

The nature of the recorded incidents is deeply troubling, ranging from verbal assaults and threats to physical attacks and acts of vandalism. Shocking examples include a Muslim woman wearing Islamic attire being assaulted on a bus in east London and subjected to derogatory remarks, as well as written death threats directed at worshippers at mosques. In another disturbing case, a woman's car was vandalized with a Nazi swastika, highlighting the vile nature of the Islamophobic attacks.

 

Iman Atta, the director of Tell Mama, expressed grave concern over the rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes and its detrimental impact on social cohesion in the UK. She emphasized that the surge in Islamophobic incidents is unacceptable and called on political leaders to unequivocally condemn such acts of hatred and prejudice. Atta stressed the importance of sending a clear message that anti-Muslim hate, like antisemitism, has no place in British society.

 

The alarming trend of Islamophobic incidents parallels a similar surge in antisemitic attacks targeting the Jewish community in the UK. The Community Security Trust (CST), a Jewish charity dedicated to monitoring and combating antisemitism, reported an "explosion in hatred" against the Jewish community since the Hamas attacks on October 7. In 2023, more than 4,000 antisemitic incidents were recorded in the UK, with the unprecedented spike attributed to the sheer volume of incidents following the escalation of tensions in the Israel-Hamas conflict.

 

The simultaneous rise in Islamophobic and antisemitic incidents underscores the urgent need for concerted efforts to combat all forms of hatred and bigotry in the UK. It is imperative that authorities, civil society organizations, and community leaders work together to address the root causes of intolerance and discrimination and promote mutual respect and understanding among all communities. Only through collective action can the UK strive to build a society where diversity is celebrated, and every individual is treated with dignity and respect, regardless of their religious or cultural background.

 

04.03.24

Source

 

 

[RuamRudy]

With the normalisation of hard right politics and the acceptance of racists such as Farage, Lee Anderson etc as 'credible' political voices by the media, plus, of course, the fact that the ruling party has been found to be institutionally Islamaphobic, is there any surprise that the UK is riven with such hatred?

[Will B Good]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

With the normalisation of hard right politics and the acceptance of racists such as Farage, Lee Anderson etc as 'credible' political voices by the media, plus, of course, the fact that the ruling party has been found to be institutionally Islamaphobic, is there any surprise that the UK is riven with such hatred?

No surprise at all......but you are, no doubt, about to be schooled as to how this has actually all been caused by the Labour Party and the left.......555.....lets see who piles in first......I could list at least five names and it'll be one of them.

[Chomper Higgot]

Hardly a surprise to anyone reading this sub forum, given the disproportionate number of Islamophobic posts coming from Brits.

 

 

[ozimoron]

None of the usual suspects condemning this of course.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

With the normalisation of hard right politics and the acceptance of racists such as Farage, Lee Anderson etc as 'credible' political voices by the media, plus, of course, the fact that the ruling party has been found to be institutionally Islamaphobic, is there any surprise that the UK is riven with such hatred?

 

Cobblers. You still have a grudge against Farage after Brexit. What you define as "hard right" are just traditional British conservatives and Anderson is merely expressing the views of millions of them - views suppressed long after the bus and train bombings of 2005, the Manchester bombings of concert kids and other wicked attacks - signaling how the British have been tolerant to a fault. How has the ruling party been shown to be institutionally Islamophobic?

 

If this anti-Muslim hatred has suddenly appeared, it is still after months of anti Jewish demonstrations in the UK. Tolerance needs to be a reciprocal virtue but that seems to be impossible with this particular UK mix of "diversity".

[Yellowtail]

It is interesting that the article mentions "...the onset of the Israel-Hamas conflict..." and "...the rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes..." and the "...detrimental impact on social cohesion in the UK." as well as the "surge in antisemitic attacks targeting the Jewish community in the UK", but it says nothing of the pro Hamas/Palestine protests in the UK. 

 

Why do you guys suppose that is? 

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

, of course, the fact that the ruling party has been found to be institutionally Islamaphobic, 

 

   The Conservative party hasn't  been found to be  " institutionally Islamaphobic,?

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   The Conservative party hasn't  been found to be  " institutionally Islamaphobic,?

 

Muslim Tory peer Baroness Warsi is in no doubt that the Tories are racist.

 

Baroness Warsi ‘vindicated’ as Tory Islamophobia report criticises PM Johnson

 

Institutional Islamophobia at the top of the Conservative Party: MCB calls for Independent Inquiry

 

[BritManToo]

I'm guessing all the trouble is the Jews fighting the Muslims, and the home grow Brits have no interest in either side.

Remove all religious extremists and the problem will be gone.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

It is interesting that the article mentions "...the onset of the Israel-Hamas conflict..." and "...the rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes..." and the "...detrimental impact on social cohesion in the UK." as well as the "surge in antisemitic attacks targeting the Jewish community in the UK", but it says nothing of the pro Hamas/Palestine protests in the UK. 

 

Why do you guys suppose that is? 

 

 

 

I don't understand what point you are trying to make?

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I don't understand what point you are trying to make?

Clearly, but that is not a question, it's a statement. 

 

Are you a leftist?

 

[RayC]

30 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Clearly, but that is not a question, it's a statement. 

 

Are you a leftist?

 

 

Actually a statement followed a question. 

 

Not that this reply adds anything to the debate but to address matters directly, here goes:

 

"(the article) says nothing of the pro Hamas/Palestine protests in the UK" Agreed

 

"Why do you guys suppose that is?"

I don't know. Personally, I think the protests may have contributed to both anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments, but clearly the catalyst for the rises is rooted in the Hamas attack and Israel's response.

 

Are you a leftist?

That depends upon what is defined as being the centre.

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Actually a statement followed a question. 

It's one sentence. It's a statement, pretending to be a question.  

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Not that this reply adds anything to the debate but to address matters directly, here goes:

 

"(the article) says nothing of the pro Hamas/Palestine protests in the UK" Agreed

 

"Why do you guys suppose that is?"

I don't know.

The question was "Why do you guys suppose that is?", not do you know why that is.   I don't either, but I could guess. What are your thoughts? 

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

Personally, I think the protests may have contributed to both anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments, but clearly the catalyst for the rises is rooted in the Hamas attack and Israel's response.

The protests contributed to anti-Semitic by design. To what extent they contributed to the rise in anti-Islamic sentiments was just an unavoidable byproduct. 

 

I submit the bulk of the rise in both anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments is a result of the protests directly. One can argue the catalyst for the rises is rooted in the Hamas attack and Israel's response, but by that same logic, because the catalyst for Israel's response was clearly the Hamas attack, the catalyst for the rises was the Hamas attack. 

 

I can't speak to the UK, but the protests started before Israel's response. 

 

21 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Are you a leftist?

That depends upon what is defined as being the centre.

Not really. A leftist in on or at least close to the end, regardless of where the center is. 

[Nick Carter icp]

14 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Muslim Tory peer Baroness Warsi is in no doubt that the Tories are racist.

 

Baroness Warsi ‘vindicated’ as Tory Islamophobia report criticises PM Johnson

 

Institutional Islamophobia at the top of the Conservative Party: MCB calls for Independent Inquiry

 

 

  Those links do not state that the Conservatives have been found to be institutionally racist , like you claimed .

   Conservative party peer and former Chairwoman Muslim Baroness Warsi got upset because Boris Jonson said  Muslim Females in burkas look like letter boxes .

   That doesn't mean that Conservatives have been found to be institutionally  racist 

[RayC]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

It's one sentence. It's a statement, pretending to be a question.  

 

If you look at your original post, it consists of a statement, " It is interesting .... protests in the UK", contained in one sentence in a single paragraph. There is then a new paragraph containing the following: " Why do you guys suppose that is?" A question. I didn't recognise this as rhetorical and took it at face value.

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

The question was "Why do you guys suppose that is?", not do you know why that is.   I don't either, but I could guess. What are your thoughts? 

 

"I don't know" is (one) often used response to questions such as "Why do you suppose ... ?" when the person being questioned, well, doesn't know (or doesn't have an opinion on the matter): I "suppose", strictly speaking, the correct response would be along the lines of, "I don't have an opinion on the matter", but I would contend that is just being pedantic.

 

As for my thoughts on the matter. I have already stated that imo the protests have contributed to the anti-Semitism and anti-Islamic sentiment which exists: I don't have an opinion of why the article excludes mention of the protests.

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

The protests contributed to anti-Semitic by design. To what extent they contributed to the rise in anti-Islamic sentiments was just an unavoidable byproduct. 

 

Imo it would foolish to deny that some are anti-Israel and some anti-Semitic: Others are anti-war (period); others may be using the protests as a vehicle for other political ends, etc, etc.

 

However, I certainly wouldn't contend and/or conclude that the protests were anti-Semitic by design: The organisers and protesters are many and varied.

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I submit the bulk of the rise in both anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments is a result of the protests directly.

 

It's possible but in order to support that contention there would need to be data available re the level of anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments, pre-October 7; post-October 7 but before any protests; and post-October 7 and after the protest(s).

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

One can argue the catalyst for the rises is rooted in the Hamas attack and Israel's response, but by that same logic, because the catalyst for Israel's response was clearly the Hamas attack, the catalyst for the rises was the Hamas attack. 

 

I agree (strictly speaking). 

 

I think that there can be little doubt that the Hamas attack fuelled anti-Islamic feeling. Those who already held anti-Semitic views may have 'doubled down', and tried to further fuel such sentiment, but imo this had little effect. I don't have data to support my view but I would contend that the immediate response post-attack was support for Israel and Jews in general. The increase in anti-Semitism was a result of Israel's response.

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I can't speak to the UK, but the protests started before Israel's response. 

 

Pro-Palestine rallies have been a regular occurrence in London for decades although not, of course, on the scale we now see.

 

Around 100,000 attended a Pro-Palestine demo the week after the Hamas attack. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, whether the protests are responsible for the bulk of the hatred being shown is debatable. That the protests have fuelled this hatred is imo incontestable.

 

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Not really. A leftist in on or at least close to the end, regardless of where the center is. 

 

When used in a political sense, the words 'left' and 'right' (and 'centre') are relative to each other. Therefore, one still needs, at least, one other point in order to say whether the point in question is on the left or on the right. By definition, at least, three points are needed if you are going to label things left, right and centre.

 

If you are using 'leftist' in a non-relative sense then the attributes associated with the term need to be defined.

 

I can't answer your original question, "Are you a leftist?" until you supply some context.

[Nick Carter icp]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Muslim Tory peer Baroness Warsi is in no doubt that the Tories are racist.

 

 

 

 

   Are you talking about the Tories that voted for this guy to be the party leader ?

 

 

   Do you think that they are racists ?

They voted for the above and didn't vote for the White person 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

If you look at your original post, it consists of a statement, " It is interesting .... protests in the UK", contained in one sentence in a single paragraph. There is then a new paragraph containing the following: " Why do you guys suppose that is?" A question. I didn't recognise this as rhetorical and took it at face value.

You said: "I don't understand what point you are trying to make?"  (statement)

I said: Clearly, but that is not a question, it's a statement. (statement)

You said: "Actually a statement followed a question." (statement)

I said: It's one sentence. It's a statement, pretending to be a question. (statement)

 

I am sorry, I was being a pedantic a-hole.

 

You are correct, it was an actual question and not rhetorical. 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

"I don't know" is (one) often used response to questions such as "Why do you suppose ... ?" when the person being questioned, well, doesn't know (or doesn't have an opinion on the matter): I "suppose", strictly speaking, the correct response would be along the lines of, "I don't have an opinion on the matter", but I would contend that is just being pedantic.

No one knows why, except perhaps the author. I was asking for opinions. 

 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

As for my thoughts on the matter. I have already stated that imo the protests have contributed to the anti-Semitism and anti-Islamic sentiment which exists: I don't have an opinion of why the article excludes mention of the protests.

Fair enough

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

Imo it would foolish to deny that some are anti-Israel and some anti-Semitic: Others are anti-war (period); others may be using the protests as a vehicle for other political ends, etc, etc.

Indeed

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

However, I certainly wouldn't contend and/or conclude that the protests were anti-Semitic by design: The organisers and protesters are many and varied.

I disagree. I believe the organizes are largely anti-Semitic, and while the protesters may or may not be, but they are not "designing" anything, they're often just showing up. 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

It's possible but in order to support that contention there would need to be data available re the level of anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic sentiments, pre-October 7; post-October 7 but before any protests; and post-October 7 and after the protest(s).

I think it more than possible, again, I think it likely. I can't speat to the UK, but by and large, people in the US have sympathy for Palestinian civilians being killed, but they generally do not like violent protests and Jewish American kids being barred from attending classes and parts campuses for "safety" because of pro Hamas protestors attending the most prestigious schools in the county on student visas.  

 

Why would anyone trust such subjective "data"? 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

I agree (strictly speaking). 

Why the qualification? 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

I think that there can be little doubt that the Hamas attack fuelled anti-Islamic feeling. Those who already held anti-Semitic views may have 'doubled down', and tried to further fuel such sentiment, but imo this had little effect. I don't have data to support my view but I would contend that the immediate response post-attack was support for Israel and Jews in general. The increase in anti-Semitism was a result of Israel's response.

We agree

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

Pro-Palestine rallies have been a regular occurrence in London for decades although not, of course, on the scale we now see.

What do they protest? 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

Around 100,000 attended a Pro-Palestine demo the week after the Hamas attack. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, whether the protests are responsible for the bulk of the hatred being shown is debatable. That the protests have fuelled this hatred is imo incontestable.

I agree (strictly speaking). Most everything is debatable. 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

When used in a political sense, the words 'left' and 'right' (and 'centre') are relative to each other. Therefore, one still needs, at least, one other point in order to say whether the point in question is on the left or on the right. By definition, at least, three points are needed if you are going to label things left, right and centre.

I did not use the words left or right. 

17 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

If you are using 'leftist' in a non-relative sense then the attributes associated with the term need to be defined.

 

I can't answer your original question, "Are you a leftist?" until you supply some context.

If you believe in equity over equality, you are a leftist. 

If you are anti meritocracy, you are a leftist. 

If you believe it is true that all cultures are equal and none is superior, you are a leftist. 

If you believe the world is divided into oppressors and the oppressed, you are a leftist. 

 

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

You said: "I don't understand what point you are trying to make?"  (statement)

I said: Clearly, but that is not a question, it's a statement. (statement)

You said: "Actually a statement followed a question." (statement)

I said: It's one sentence. It's a statement, pretending to be a question. (statement)

 

I am sorry, I was being a pedantic a-hole.

 

You are correct, it was an actual question and not rhetorical. 

No one knows why, except perhaps the author. I was asking for opinions. 

 

We were talking at cross-purposes. I think that we are in (broad) agreement about the causes of the upsurge in hatred.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I disagree. I believe the organizes are largely anti-Semitic, and while the protesters may or may not be, but they are not "designing" anything, they're often just showing up. 

 

The attached link gives details about the main organisers of the protests in the UK. A mixed bag although I concede that some of these organisations are, at best, anti-Israel and, at worse, anti-Semitic.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/who-are-the-six-groups-organising-the-pro-palestinian-protests-113037580.html

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

I think it more than possible, again, I think it likely. I can't speat to the UK, but by and large, people in the US have sympathy for Palestinian civilians being killed, but they generally do not like violent protests and Jewish American kids being barred from attending classes and parts campuses for "safety" because of pro Hamas protestors attending the most prestigious schools in the county on student visas.  

 

I am probably guilty of pedantry here. Apart from the bit about Hamas protesters in education, imo your comment could equally be applied to the UK.

 

One factor that may be unique to the UK? The Pro-Palestine organisers insisted on holding a protest on Armistice Day. This upset a lot of people. Imo this certainly didn't do the Pro-Palestian cause any good, and it may well have contributed to anti-Islamic sentiment.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why would anyone trust such subjective "data"? 

 

Why would it necessarily have had to be subjective? In any event, irrelevant now as the opportunity has passed.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Why the qualification? 

 

Because, as I explained, imo anti-Semitic feeling was (and still is) fuelled by Israel's response to the attacks.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

What do they protest? 

 

At the risk of over-generalising and over- simplifying matters, they have disagreed with the Israeli government's policies toward, and actions, in Palestine over the years, and have sought to put pressure on the UK government to lobby for change.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I did not use the words left or right.

 

You didn't and you have now clarified matters. However in my defence, in the UK the term 'leftie' is often used to describe someone who holds views which are thought to be 'left' of the political 'centre' (i.e. not part of the general consensus).

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

If you believe in equity over equality, you are a leftist. 

 

Imo this depends on the context and circumstances. What if equality (of opportunity) doesn't exist? A case in point are the disproportionate number of PMs who originate from Eton (a UK public school (a fee paying private school in American parlance). No one in their right mind would suggest that this is coincidence or that all kids in the UK have an equal chance of attending Eton. Given that attendance at this school brings many advantages, isn't there a case for levelling the playing field? That would probably be construed as placing equity over equality.

 

Given that I believe such actions are justified, I guess that makes me a 'leftie' based on this criterion.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If you are anti meritocracy, you are a leftist. 

 

I am not. 1-1.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If you believe it is true that all cultures are equal and none is superior, you are a leftist. 

 

How do you even measure this superiority? Is Tibetan Buddhism superior to Italian Catholicism? Is the popular music of the UK superior to that of Nigeria? Is cricket better than baseball? (Actually that is a rhetoric question and the answer is quite obviously 'Yes'😉).

 

I'm still at 1-1.

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

If you believe the world is divided into oppressors and the oppressed, you are a leftist. 

 

 

Oppression exists. However, I don't believe the world is divided simply into 'oppressors' and 'the oppressed'.

 

So based on your criteria, it's 1-2 and I am not a lefty😉😁

[Yellowtail]

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

We were talking at cross-purposes. I think that we are in (broad) agreement about the causes of the upsurge in hatred.

 

 

The attached link gives details about the main organisers of the protests in the UK. A mixed bag although I concede that some of these organisations are, at best, anti-Israel and, at worse, anti-Semitic.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/who-are-the-six-groups-organising-the-pro-palestinian-protests-113037580.html

 

 

I am probably guilty of pedantry here. Apart from the bit about Hamas protesters in education, imo your comment could equally be applied to the UK.

 

One factor that may be unique to the UK? The Pro-Palestine organisers insisted on holding a protest on Armistice Day. This upset a lot of people. Imo this certainly didn't do the Pro-Palestian cause any good, and it may well have contributed to anti-Islamic sentiment.

 

 

Why would it necessarily have had to be subjective? In any event, irrelevant now as the opportunity has passed.

The subject matter is subjective. Measuring objectively would be very difficult, even if the study were unbiased, which is not likely if not impossible. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

Because, as I explained, imo anti-Semitic feeling was (and still is) fuelled by Israel's response to the attacks.

I would argue that. I would bet that by and large; the anti-Semitic feeling has not increased much due to Israel's response. Do you feel differently about Jews? Anti-Israel sentiments might but up some for non-Muslims, but I doubt by a whole lot. 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

At the risk of over-generalising and over- simplifying matters, they have disagreed with the Israeli government's policies toward, and actions, in Palestine over the years, and have sought to put pressure on the UK government to lobby for change.

So their feelings with respect to Israel and Jews has not really changed. 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

You didn't and you have now clarified matters. However in my defence, in the UK the term 'leftie' is often used to describe someone who holds views which are thought to be 'left' of the political 'centre' (i.e. not part of the general consensus).

There used to be a center in the US, it's gone. 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

Imo this depends on the context and circumstances. What if equality (of opportunity) doesn't exist? A case in point are the disproportionate number of PMs who originate from Eton (a UK public school (a fee paying private school in American parlance). No one in their right mind would suggest that this is coincidence or that all kids in the UK have an equal chance of attending Eton. Given that attendance at this school brings many advantages, isn't there a case for levelling the playing field? That would probably be construed as placing equity over equality.

 

Given that I believe such actions are justified, I guess that makes me a 'leftie' based on this criterion.

Are PMs not voted for, and does not everyone get to vote? 

 

In the US we've had the SAT tests since the '20s, which were designed to make university admissions truly meritocratic, such that everyone, regardless of race or background had the same opportunity.

 

There is nothing wrong with funding disadvantaged students at university, but adjusting the entrance requirements based on race is pure and simple racism.

 

 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

I am not. 1-1.

 

 

How do you even measure this superiority? Is Tibetan Buddhism superior to Italian Catholicism? Is the popular music of the UK superior to that of Nigeria? Is cricket better than baseball? (Actually that is a rhetoric question and the answer is quite obviously 'Yes'😉).

I was talking culture, not religion. That you are free to work and get paid and buy and own a bat, and keep it in a home that you own and that is protected by rule of law that no one can take from you is much more important than whether you like baseball, or a sissy-ass game like cricket... 

30 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I'm still at 1-1.

 

 

Oppression exists. However, I don't believe the world is divided simply into 'oppressors' and 'the oppressed'.

 

So based on your criteria, it's 1-2 and I am not a lefty😉😁

Good news that. 

[RuamRudy]

8 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Are you talking about the Tories that voted for this guy to be the party leader ?

 

 

   Do you think that they are racists ?

They voted for the above and didn't vote for the White person 

 

 

 

 

 

They did vote for the white person but the white person was useless. Only when the true extent of her uselessness became clear did they vote for the brown person, and only because there was no other option. 

[transam]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

 

We were talking at cross-purposes. I think that we are in (broad) agreement about the causes of the upsurge in hatred.

 

 

The attached link gives details about the main organisers of the protests in the UK. A mixed bag although I concede that some of these organisations are, at best, anti-Israel and, at worse, anti-Semitic.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/who-are-the-six-groups-organising-the-pro-palestinian-protests-113037580.html

 

 

I am probably guilty of pedantry here. Apart from the bit about Hamas protesters in education, imo your comment could equally be applied to the UK.

 

One factor that may be unique to the UK? The Pro-Palestine organisers insisted on holding a protest on Armistice Day. This upset a lot of people. Imo this certainly didn't do the Pro-Palestian cause any good, and it may well have contributed to anti-Islamic sentiment.

 

 

Why would it necessarily have had to be subjective? In any event, irrelevant now as the opportunity has passed.

 

 

Because, as I explained, imo anti-Semitic feeling was (and still is) fuelled by Israel's response to the attacks.

 

 

At the risk of over-generalising and over- simplifying matters, they have disagreed with the Israeli government's policies toward, and actions, in Palestine over the years, and have sought to put pressure on the UK government to lobby for change.

 

 

You didn't and you have now clarified matters. However in my defence, in the UK the term 'leftie' is often used to describe someone who holds views which are thought to be 'left' of the political 'centre' (i.e. not part of the general consensus).

 

 

Imo this depends on the context and circumstances. What if equality (of opportunity) doesn't exist? A case in point are the disproportionate number of PMs who originate from Eton (a UK public school (a fee paying private school in American parlance). No one in their right mind would suggest that this is coincidence or that all kids in the UK have an equal chance of attending Eton. Given that attendance at this school brings many advantages, isn't there a case for levelling the playing field? That would probably be construed as placing equity over equality.

 

Given that I believe such actions are justified, I guess that makes me a 'leftie' based on this criterion.

 

 

I am not. 1-1.

 

 

How do you even measure this superiority? Is Tibetan Buddhism superior to Italian Catholicism? Is the popular music of the UK superior to that of Nigeria? Is cricket better than baseball? (Actually that is a rhetoric question and the answer is quite obviously 'Yes'😉).

 

I'm still at 1-1.

 

 

Oppression exists. However, I don't believe the world is divided simply into 'oppressors' and 'the oppressed'.

 

So based on your criteria, it's 1-2 and I am not a lefty😉😁

I can't read a post built like that, sorry Raymond........😏

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

They did vote for the white person but the white person was useless. Only when the true extent of her uselessness became clear did they vote for the brown person, and only because there was no other option. 

 

   There was no other option because M.P's need to get at least 100 endorsements from other M.Ps to be in the running for Prime minister and Rishi Sunak was the only person to get 100 endorsements from other M.Ps .

   If they were racist, they would have endorsed the White M.Ps for PM , rather than a Brown one 

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

The subject matter is subjective. Measuring objectively would be very difficult, even if the study were unbiased, which is not likely if not impossible. 

 

The subject matter might well be subjective but the methodology could, and should, be objective.

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I would argue that. I would bet that by and large; the anti-Semitic feeling has not increased much due to Israel's response. Do you feel differently about Jews? Anti-Israel sentiments might but up some for non-Muslims, but I doubt by a whole lot. 

 

You're right. I would suggest that anti-Israeli, rather than anti-Semitic, sentiment has increased in the UK. 

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

So their feelings with respect to Israel and Jews has not really changed. 

 

I would think that their position(s) have hardened.

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

There used to be a center in the US, it's gone. 

 

Where the US goes, the UK follows. Some would argue the centre has already disappeared from UK politics.

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Are PMs not voted for, and does not everyone get to vote? 

 

In the US we've had the SAT tests since the '20s, which were designed to make university admissions truly meritocratic, such that everyone, regardless of race or background had the same opportunity.

 

There is nothing wrong with funding disadvantaged students at university, but adjusting the entrance requirements based on race is pure and simple racism.

 

We are straying from the topic nevertheless .....

 

You are missing the point. My point is that equality of opportunity is missing.

 

I think that it uncontentious to say that not all universities are equal? In England (I will exclude the rest of the UK as the education systems are different), Oxford and Cambridge (Oxbridge) are generally accepted as being the two best universities. In order to be accepted into Oxbridge a student needs, as a bare minimum, at least 3 'A' grades at GCSE 'A' level (the public examination sat by 17/18 year old students in the UK). In addition, most applicants for Oxbridge have to sit a separate entrance examination set by the Oxbridge colleges and attend an interview: The working class student is at a disadvantage from the outset.  S/he is unlikely to have attended one of the fee-paying public (private) schools. These schools have much better facilities and environments for learning than their state counterparts. In addition, they are geared towards sending their students to Oxbridge and, more often than not, offer coaching for the Oxbridge entrance exams and interviews. Unlike the majority of their counterparts in the state sector, the teachers at these schools are almost inevitably graduates of Oxbridge and ex-public schoolboys themselves, have an intimate knowledge and quite often connections within and to the Oxbridge colleges. Except for very rare instances, these options are simply not available for state school pupils. The odds are stacked against them from the outset. Therefore, whilst the content of the public examinations - and to a lesser extent, the Oxbridge entrance exams -  may be unbiased, etc the preparation for them certainly isn't. It's akin to letting some runners in a 100m race start 2 secs before the rest. Sometimes one of the late starters will win the race; the vast majority of the time they won't.

 

I'm afraid that my ignorance of the US education system is almost total. However, whilst the SAT tests themselves may well be free of bias with all students have equality of opportunity, can the same thing be said of the system which prepares students for these tests?

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I was talking culture, not religion. That you are free to work and get paid and buy and own a bat, and keep it in a home that you own and that is protected by rule of law that no one can take from you is much more important than whether you like baseball,

 

 

Imo that is far too narrow an explanation of what constitutes culture. Religion doesn't completely define society's culture but I would argue that the norms, symbolism, art, etc associated with religion form an intrinsic part of the overwhelming majority of culture(s) around the world. 

 

As I inferred previously, I wouldn't even know where to start defining the set of criterion - let alone how to measure - the superiority of one culture vis-a-vis another.

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

or a sissy-ass game like cricket... 

In the unlikely event that you find yourself standing on a patch of grass - which might not be in the best of condition - armed only with a helmet, some padding and a willow bat, about to face someone who is about to bowl a leather encased sphere with a pronounced seam - possibly deliberately aimed at your head - at a speed of 90+ mph I wish you luck and hope that you don't get hit (I guarantee that it will hurt even with the helmet and padding).

 

Can I also suggest that you don't refer to either the sport or the bowler as "sissy-ass" as this is probably going to upset them. In the circumstances that you find yourself, I would venture that this is something best avoided.

 

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Good news that. 

 

That depends on your viewpoint. I was rather disappointed in the result.

Edited March 5 by RayC
Rephrasing

[RayC]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I can't read a post built like that, sorry Raymond........😏

 

That's a shame, Trans.

 

I'm afraid that I'm not to rehash the post, so I guess that we will both have to learn to live with our disappointment 😭😉

[RuamRudy]

18 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   There was no other option because M.P's need to get at least 100 endorsements from other M.Ps to be in the running for Prime minister and Rishi Sunak was the only person to get 100 endorsements from other M.Ps .

   If they were racist, they would have endorsed the White M.Ps for PM , rather than a Brown one 

 

If they aren't racist their own senior members would not have declared that they are. 

 

I suggest that her lived experience of Tory racism is more valid than your unsubstantiated denial. However if you want to explain to her that she is wrong, you charge on 

[Nick Carter icp]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

If they aren't racist their own senior members would not have declared that they are. 

 

I suggest that her lived experience of Tory racism is more valid than your unsubstantiated denial. However if you want to explain to her that she is wrong, you charge on 

 

   You initially made the claim that The Conservatives were found to the Islamaphobic and to back up that slaim, you posted a link which stated "The Muslim Council of Britain today calls for an independent Equality Human Rights Commission investigation into the state of Islamophobia in the Conservative Party."

    Now, a Muslim group calling for an enquiry certainly  isn't proof that the Conservatives have been found to be Islamophobic .

    (About half of the top Conservative leadership  are non White all elected by the "racist" Conservative voters )

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You initially made the claim that The Conservatives were found to the Islamaphobic and to back up that slaim, you posted a link which stated "The Muslim Council of Britain today calls for an independent Equality Human Rights Commission investigation into the state of Islamophobia in the Conservative Party."

    Now, a Muslim group calling for an enquiry certainly  isn't proof that the Conservatives have been found to be Islamophobic .

    (About half of the top Conservative leadership  are non White all elected by the "racist" Conservative voters )

 

What is it that makes your knowledge of Tory party racism more valid that the experience of Baroness Warsi? I really would like to know how you would explain to her that she is wrong.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

What is it that makes your knowledge of Tory party racism more valid that the experience of Baroness Warsi? I really would like to know how you would explain to her that she is wrong.

 

   Baroness Warsi claimed that Conservatives  were Islamophobic because it was said that Muslim Females wearing Burkas look like bank robbers , whilst it may been been offensive to her , its not Islamophobic and your link also stated that the Conservative party wasn't Islamophobic .

   The Labour party are pointing fingers at the Conservatives trying to hide their own Anti Semitism 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Baroness Warsi claimed that Conservatives  were Islamophobic because it was said that Muslim Females wearing Burkas look like bank robbers , whilst it may been been offensive to her , its not Islamophobic and your link also stated that the Conservative party wasn't Islamophobic .

   The Labour party are pointing fingers at the Conservatives trying to hide their own Anti Semitism 

 

This thread is not about anti-Semitism so labour is irrelevant. 

Baroness Warsi is, however, a Tory peer, a former co-chairwoman of the party who has served as a minister of state. But you know better than her.

 

If you can hear laughter at the moment, it is possible that you are hearing me laughing at you and your desperate attempt at trying to explain to a Muslim victim of racism that what she experienced isn't racism.