Possible Ukrainian defensive retreat

[simple1]

51 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Are YOU prepared to volunteer for the Ukrainian front line? If not why should other men die for your druthers?

I'm 74 with chronic illness. I'd be a hinderance as opposed to useful in a combat situation. I do admire the Ukrainians and others who have taken on Russia in an extremely challenging situation.  If my country was being invaded by a cruel and criminal foreign force I would not want my government to surrender if their were a chance matters can improve.

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Could not possible be more wrong. 

Mar 2022 Russia an Ukraine met in Antalya Turkey  , they were close to an agreement on six points: Ukraine’s neutrality, disarmament and security guarantees, the so-called “de-Nazification”, removal of obstacles on the use of the Russian language in Ukraine, the status of the breakaway republics in the Donbas region and the status of Crimea annexed by Russia in 2014.

Britain and the US pressured Zelensky  to withdraw from negotiations because they thought Ukraine could win! 

 Russia had been negotiating since 2008 on the Ukraine/NATO issue  , and the west has doubled down on every step. 

They did not start this war, the west did , by attempting to put NATO forces in Ukraine , Providing NATO weapons and training and conducting joint exercises, 

  I know what you are going to say, everyone who has bought into the US narrative says  the same when they run out of arguments. 

" Ukraine is a Sovereign country and has the right to do what it wants "

Which is true, but what is also true is that Sovereign decisions have consequences . It is true now and it has being true through human history.  

 

 

 

Nice story, totally devoid of facts!

[simple1]

6 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Nice story, totally devoid of facts!

No point in commenting unless you submit your "facts".

[Wobblybob]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

No point in commenting unless you submit your "facts".

I have submitted facts to this poster on numerous times, they fall like water off a ducks back! 

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, Pouatchee said:

 

i used to agree with much of what you said. now, i don't think much of you. 

what you said in what i quoted, well, it applies to you. no one here is enlightened enough to make stupid comments like this you just made. talking in riddles is just that... riddles

 

narcissists arent usually surrounded by many people. take a good look around yourself

Happily, I don't post to get your approval. If you only want posters that agree with you, or that you approve of you need to change forums.

 

Have you considered putting me on ignore? You should do that.

 

Have a nice day.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, simple1 said:

I'm 74 with chronic illness. I'd be a hinderance as opposed to useful in a combat situation. I do admire the Ukrainians and others who have taken on Russia in an extremely challenging situation.  If my country was being invaded by a cruel and criminal foreign force I would not want my government to surrender if their were a chance matters can improve.

That's admirable, but in THIS situation, do you honestly believe that Ukraine can win?

I do not and never have . Napoleon and Hitler both thought they could and couldn't. Ukraine doesn't have the manpower or the industrial capacity to win. Without western taxpayer support it would have been over 2 years ago. Money doesn't win wars, men do and Ukraine doesn't have them.

 

If you do think Ukraine can win I'd be fascinated to know why.

[tgw]

On 3/31/2024 at 6:23 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Always good to be able to blame other people for his own mistakes. Perhaps Zelensky should have considered what would happen if his supply chain was severed BEFORE taking his country to war by refusing to negotiate.

 

I feel sorry for all the Ukrainians that are going to die as long as he refuses to do so.

 

By all means he can call it a "defensive retreat" if it makes him feel better, but some of us know what it really is.

 

A war is usually won or lost by the morale of the troops, so how will the morale be of either side if Ukraine retreats?

 

a quick question to you : who do you think is responsible for the war (since 2014) ?

[Pouatchee]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Happily, I don't post to get your approval. If you only want posters that agree with you, or that you approve of you need to change forums.

 

Have you considered putting me on ignore? You should do that.

 

Have a nice day.

 

youre not worth the effort it takes to click on my mouse

 

[simple1]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's admirable, but in THIS situation, do you honestly believe that Ukraine can win?

I do not and never have . Napoleon and Hitler both thought they could and couldn't. Ukraine doesn't have the manpower or the industrial capacity to win. Without western taxpayer support it would have been over 2 years ago. Money doesn't win wars, men do and Ukraine doesn't have them.

 

If you do think Ukraine can win I'd be fascinated to know why.

 

I don't have the facts on Ukraine's current and projected capabilities to resist Russia to answer your question. To claim 'money' doesn't win wars' is true, but financing and associated logistics are a crucial component. Personally it does come across to me Ukraine is willing to keep resisting. It will be a very sad day should Ukraine have to capitulate and a terrible signal to Western societies. The stab in the back by the US  Republican Party disgusts me.  I truly wish Russian fails in it's evil endeavours.

[Wobblybob]

 

 

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's admirable, but in THIS situation, do you honestly believe that Ukraine can win?

I do not and never have . Napoleon and Hitler both thought they could and couldn't. Ukraine doesn't have the manpower or the industrial capacity to win. Without western taxpayer support it would have been over 2 years ago. Money doesn't win wars, men do and Ukraine doesn't have them.

 

If you do think Ukraine can win I'd be fascinated to know why.

But as a warrior I would have thought that you would have realised that in a battle it is all about fire power and weaponry, the SAS are a testimonial to this when just 7 SAS soldiers took on hundreds of South Yemen's finest at the Battle of Mirbat.

Fire power!

[impulse]

On 4/2/2024 at 3:57 PM, simple1 said:

I'm 74 with chronic illness. I'd be a hinderance as opposed to useful in a combat situation. I do admire the Ukrainians and others who have taken on Russia in an extremely challenging situation.  If my country was being invaded by a cruel and criminal foreign force I would not want my government to surrender if their were a chance matters can improve.

 

Pragmatic question here...

 

Do you believe the residents in the Donbass or Crimea will suffer under Russia any more than they suffered under Ukraine?  Will their quality of life go up or go down based on the GDP per capita?

 

 

[scottiejohn]

39 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

But as a warrior I would have thought that you would have realised that in a battle it is all about fire power and weaponry, the SAS are a testimonial to this when just 7 SAS soldiers took on hundreds of South Yemen's finest at the Battle of Mirbat.

Fire power!

That and brain power!

PS;  I have been at the scene of the battle when I served in Oman.  What a barren and desolate place!

[Wobblybob]

16 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

That and brain power!

PS;  I have been at the scene of the battle when I served in Oman.  What a barren and desolate place!

Me too!

You could never accuse the Russians of "that and brain power."

[simple1]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Pragmatic question here...

 

Do you believe the residents in the Donbass or Crimea will suffer under Russia any more than they suffered under Ukraine?  Will their quality of life go up or go down based on the GDP per capita?

 

 

 

From my perspective living under the rule of an oppressor and mass murderer is not for me. I assume some are OK with living under Putin, some not; especially minorities or those seeking freedom of speech and so on.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Pouatchee said:

 

youre not worth the effort it takes to click on my mouse

 

You are worth clicking on to give you a

 

Have a nice day.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

From my perspective living under the rule of an oppressor and mass murderer is not for me. I assume some are OK with living under Putin, some not; especially minorities or those seeking freedom of speech and so on.

Nobody is. I didn't even like living under the IMO wannabe dictator in the last government, and we had the vote to get rid of them.

 

Unfortunately billions don't get the choice, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sadam and many many more to this day, but people lived, loved and died of old age under them.

 

The question now isn't who people prefer to live under, but if they want to live, or end up in a bag.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, simple1 said:

 

From my perspective living under the rule of an oppressor and mass murderer is not for me. I assume some are OK with living under Putin, some not; especially minorities or those seeking freedom of speech and so on.

but are you prepared to give your life, if needed, to not live under an oppressor and mass murderer?

[tgw]

11 hours ago, impulse said:

Pragmatic question here...

 

Do you believe the residents in the Donbass or Crimea will suffer under Russia any more than they suffered under Ukraine?  Will their quality of life go up or go down based on the GDP per capita?

 

two remarks:

 

- "than they suffered under Ukraine" :  you will need to thoroughly prove that point first, especially the "under Ukraine" part. there has been suffering while the territory was formally administered by Ukraine yes, but the suffering was caused by Russia.

 

- quality of life : Ukraine gives them much better economic perspectives than Russia, especially with EU accession.

 

and lastly, considering many men from LNR/DPR died fighting Putin's war, how do you evaluate dead people's quality of life ?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, simple1 said:

It will be a very sad day should Ukraine have to capitulate and a terrible signal to Western societies. The stab in the back by the US  Republican Party disgusts me.  I truly wish Russian fails in it's evil endeavours.

Western societies will carry on as usual. They have forgotten every war last century ( except on remembrance days for a couple of them ), and will forget every war currently happening. They don't even care about some of them happening right now, eg Congo, Sudan, Burma etc. If Ukraine wasn't populated by white people would they even care about that one?

 

Why so upset by the GOP? They have determined that US$ are better spent in the US than in a European squabble, and that is their right. Do you care that they don't support the opposition in Burma? Their cause is as just as the Ukrainians.

[simple1]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Western societies will carry on as usual. They have forgotten every war last century ( except on remembrance days for a couple of them ), and will forget every war currently happening. They don't even care about some of them happening right now, eg Congo, Sudan, Burma etc. If Ukraine wasn't populated by white people would they even care about that one?

 

Why so upset by the GOP? They have determined that US$ are better spent in the US than in a European squabble, and that is their right. Do you care that they don't support the opposition in Burma? Their cause is as just as the Ukrainians.

 

The fact of the matter is Congo, Sudan and Burma are all civil wars and do not threaten Western strategic interests. At the same time Congo, Sudan, Myanmar  and South Sudan do receive Western aid. e.g. Myanmar...

 

https://www.usaid.gov/burma/press-release/usaid-immediately-redirects-42-million-response-military-coup-burma#:~:text=In FY 2020%2C the United,Bangladesh and throughout the region.

 

Though it will make no difference whatsoever. I reject the evangelical, ultra nationalist driven MAGA policies and the anti government self interested con man, Trump. Also the current Republican stance reminds me when Bush encouraged the Shiites to rebel in Iraq and then failed to support them, resulting in the murder of tens of thousands by Saddam.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, simple1 said:

Though it will make no difference whatsoever. I reject the evangelical, ultra nationalist driven MAGA policies and the anti government self interested con man, Trump. Also the current Republican stance reminds me when Bush encouraged the Shiites to rebel in Iraq and then failed to support them, resulting in the murder of tens of thousands by Saddam.

Two very different points in that paragraph.

a/ I support Trump BECAUSE he is anti government. Most if not all my problems were/ are caused by governments not doing their job and wandering off into the weeds with moronic societal changing policies, like stealing my money to build cycle paths that hardly anyone uses because they hate cars.

Anyone supporting small government gets my vote.

 

b/ Bush encouraged the Shiites to rebel in Iraq and then failed to support them, resulting in the murder of tens of thousands by Saddam.

 

Unfortunately history is littered with such incidents eg

The British and the Cossacks in WW1, the allies and the Arabs in WW1, the US and the Vietnamese hill tribes and so on.

Shameful by any government.

 

However, comes a time to wake up and smell the coffee, and if it took the GOP this long to wake up to an unwinnable war in Ukraine, later is better than not at all.