Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand

[garygooner]

Good advice given by the last 2 posters.

Would be nice if there was a simple form that said Mr ..... was refused a TIN today due to reason .........

 

[chiang mai]

16 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

I am yet to see any source to suggest the CRS regulations involve any sharing of credit card information, especially at the individual transaction level.

 

There is no reason why CRS should mention credit card transactions specifically, credit card spending is only one of the many ways that funds can be transferred/remitted internationally and spent.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

But hey, if you've been to a TRD branch and asked the questions and you chose to believe what you have been told, go for it.

 

I mostly agree - except I have a different take on this last comment.

 

If after visiting the local Thai RD, and after one correctly provides the local Thai RD the absolute truth with regard to one's finances and income,  and then the RD tells one they will NOT give one a TIN, and further  the RD states no Thai income tax required .... I think this is MORE than just what ONE chooses to believe.  Its ALSO what the LOCAL THAI RD BELIEVES.

 

I think discarding what the local Thai RD believes is NOT a good approach.

 

I think that important. 

 

Pounding on the Thai RD  desk, telling them they are full of sh*t for their refusal to grant a Thai TIN, does not sound to me to be a good approach.

 

Rather I think the best approach is to CONTINUE to monitor the situation, and possibly go back to the local Thai RD (again applying for a TIN) only after there is a bit more clarity.   Possibly those with a yellow-book/Pink-ID (and those with an LTR visa) have more flexibility with timing, and possibly NOT.

 

That is MORE than just 'choosing to believe' what one has been told.

 

You and I have very different  views on the way forward here.

 

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I mostly agree - except I have a different take on this last comment.

 

If after visiting the local Thai RD, and after one correctly provides the local Thai RD the absolute truth with regard to one's finances and income,  and then the RD tells one they will NOT give one a TIN, and further  the RD states no Thai income tax required .... I think this is MORE than just what ONE chooses to believe.  Its ALSO what the LOCAL THAI RD BELIEVES.

 

I think discarding what the local Thai RD believes is NOT a good approach.

 

I think that important. 

 

Pounding on the Thai RD  desk, telling them they are full of sh*t for their refusal to grant a Thai TIN, does not sound to me to be a good approach.

 

Rather I think the best approach is to CONTINUE to monitor the situation, and possibly go back to the local Thai RD (again applying for a TIN) only after there is a bit more clarity.   Possibly those with a yellow-book/Pink-ID (and those with an LTR visa) have more flexibility with timing, and possibly NOT.

 

That is MORE than just 'choosing to believe' what one has been told.

 

You and I have very different  views on the way forward here.

 

To be crystal clear.......YOU mentioned pounding on the desk and calling them names....NOT ME, I would neither suggest that nor think it a good idea.

 

"I think this is MORE than just what ONE chooses to believe.  Its ALSO what the LOCAL THAI RD BELIEVES".

 

I have seen cases where different people in the same branch have made conflicting statements, other members have reported this also, even people in the same meeting. So I think it is extremely dangerous to think that something you are told by one employee, reflects the official position of a branch, unless the statements are made by the most senior person and they are somehow recorded.

 

 

[jwest10]

2 hours ago, garygooner said:

Good advice given by the last 2 posters.

Would be nice if there was a simple form that said Mr ..... was refused a TIN today due to reason .........

 

That would be easy???

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Roi Et.

Kanchananaburi

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

There is no reason why CRS should mention credit card transactions specifically, credit card spending is only one of the many ways that funds can be transferred/remitted internationally and spent.

 

"Transferring/remitting funds internationally and being spent" isn't relevant to the CRS data sharing.  I'm guessing you did not read the source.

 

I'll say it again: the CRS simply reports aggregate account balances, ONCE A YEAR, and does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of certain income as specified in table 5. There is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.  There is no source to suggest the CRS regulations involve any sharing of credit card information, especially at the individual transaction level.
 

[Presnock]

15 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

"Transferring/remitting funds internationally and being spent" isn't relevant to the CRS data sharing.  I'm guessing you did not read the source.

 

I'll say it again: the CRS simply reports aggregate account balances, ONCE A YEAR, and does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of certain income as specified in table 5. There is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.  There is no source to suggest the CRS regulations involve any sharing of credit card information, especially at the individual transaction level.
 

Check out the webinar on filing out the CRS form from Kasikorn (it was advertized for last Friday they specifically mention ARM CC use reporting in CRS.  Myself, I will be under FATCA  
carl(at)expattaxthailand.com

[Presnock]

I am not conerned with Bangkok Bank or Thailand reporting my financial activity - have heard on several webinars on CRS about the ATM and cc Use being available to the Revenue Dept.  That is no concern of mine as I repiort va FBAR everything that  I remit to Thailand.  My concern was for those that claim that they will only bring in cash or use ATM and cc for spending here to avoid being taxed by the Thai revenue dept so I have been looking at FATCA and I really don't believe that the US govt will send to the Thais, any of those accounts, only the beginning and ending account amount for the calendar year.  If anyone has read what data will be sent to the Thai revenue dept then I would appreciate  them informing me.  In addition, in a Previously mention and linked article, it said that eventually every adult tax resident would be required to geta a TIN, Maybe or maybe not.  But again, we are just spinning wheels for no reason yet.  I do wish all a happy tax season and form filing if required.  They also mention that if one doesn't fill out the CRS/Fatca forms then the bank could lock out the account or close it.  Under the Fatca articles is menions that in many coundtrie Americans are being refused accounts or having accounts closed but the US officials said they didn't care about that.  good luck to all

[chiang mai]

31 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 I'm guessing you did not read the source.

 

 

You've spent the majority  of the past year in this threads, guessing this and guessing that!

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I have seen cases where different people in the same branch have made conflicting statements, other members have reported this also, even people in the same meeting. So I think it is extremely dangerous to think that something you are told by one employee, reflects the official position of a branch, unless the statements are made by the most senior person and they are somehow recorded.

 

 

 So what do you suggest? One tell the RD official their view does NOT reflect the official position of the RD branch and cause them to lose face?  Tell them they are wrong for refusing to provide a Thai TIN ?

 

or instead simply acknowledge politely what one was told , and continue to monitor the situation over the coming months, and assess when and where one should (possibly) again knock on the door of the Thai RD about getting a TIN?

 

I know my view here.   For certain I don't know your view.  I do get the sense after being firmly told by a Thai RD official that they will not give a new TIN, nor activate (for online submission) one's Pink-ID as the TIN, ... that you may think one should go over the RD officials head ?  , that you may think one should keep insisting to the Thai RD official that they provide the TIN ?

 

As noted, that's not my view - at least not until things become more clear and the dates for tax submissions come MUCH closer. One needs to look at one's specific circumstances.

 

My view?

 

I believe because:

(1) I am NOT bringing money into Thailand in the 2024 taxation year - hence for 2024 tax year have inadequate Thai assessable income, and

(2) I am on an LTR visa (where my foreign income is not taxable even if I brought it in (which I have not), and

(3) I have a pink-ID and hence with the pink-ID I think I could always at the very last day when tax returns are due - show up at the local RD with a filled in paper printed Thai tax form with my pink-ID # in the TIN field, and see what they say then.  

 

For certain I will NOT push a local Thai RD official NOW causing them to lose face.  Going back now to them would do exactly that - and I think such is a VERY bad idea.

 

Again - I don't understand your view.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 So what do you suggest? One tell the RD official their view does NOT reflect the official position of the RD branch and cause them to lose face?  Tell them they are wrong for refusing to provide a Thai TIN ?

 

or instead simply acknowledge politely what one was told , and continue to monitor the situation over the coming months, and assess when and where one should (possibly) again knock on the door of the Thai RD about getting a TIN?

 

I know my view here.   For certain I don't know your view.  I do get the sense after being firmly told by a Thai RD official that they will not give a new TIN, nor activate (for online submission) one's Pink-ID as the TIN, ... that you think one should go over the RD officials head ?  , or keep insisting to the Thai RD official that they provide the TIN ?

 

As noted, that's not my view - at least not until things become more clear and the dates for tax submissions come MUCH closer.

 

My view?

 

I believe because:

(1) I am NOT bringing money into Thailand in the 2024 taxation year - I have inadequate assessable income, and

(2) I am on an LTR visa (where my foreign income is not taxable even if I brought it in (which I have not), and

(3) I have a pink-ID and hence with the pink-ID I think I could always at the very last day when tax returns are due - show up at the local RD with a filled in paper printed Thai tax form with my pink-ID # in the TIN field, and see what they say then.  

 

For certain I will NOT push a local Thai RD official NOW causing them to lose face.  Going back now to them would do exactly that - and I think such is a VERY bad idea.

 

Again - I don't understand your view.

My view is this:

 

I have a TIN and will happily tell others what I would do if I didn't have one but felt that I wanted one. Ultimately however, what others do is their business and I don't mind in the least which ever road they chose to walk down.

 

So, what I would do is to be firm, clear and persistent, up to the point where I felt I could not get a different answer. Then I would escalate matters, either in the branch or in the chain of command by going to higher authorities...didn't I say this already, it sounds like an echo to me!

 

I would point out to whoever, exactly what the TRD Code says and I'd remind whoever that I have assessable income, if indeed I had any. If however I didn't have any assessable income (as you appear not to) and/or if I was on a visa that meant my income is tax free (which you appear to be) or if I had a Pink Card that functions as a TIN (which you appear to have), I wouldn't give this topic even a single passing thought and I wouldn't ask questions that don't appear to be even remotely relevant to your individual circumstances.

 

 

 

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You've spent the majority  of the past year in this threads, guessing this and guessing that!

As have you!

[anrcaccount]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

Check out the webinar on filing out the CRS form from Kasikorn (it was advertized for last Friday they specifically mention ARM CC use reporting in CRS. 

 

I did. He is not correct. Much of what he is promoting regarding CRS is simply false. 

 

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

Myself, I will be under FATCA  
carl(at)expattaxthailand.com

 

As I said, FATCA is mainly about in your case, Thailand reporting back to the US. FATCA has been in place for a decade so nothing new for you, this year. 

 

FATCA , like CRS, does not report on individual transactions, has a 50K US minimum threshold and this applies to credit cards, so only if you somehow overpaid your credit card and it was more than 50k, in credit,  would it be reported!

 

Even in that case, only a single aggregate balance and no detail of the transactions. 

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

So what do you suggest? One tell the RD official their view does NOT reflect the official position of the RD branch and cause them to lose face?  Tell them they are wrong for refusing to provide a Thai TIN ?

Of course that's what he's saying. He'll quote the 60/120/220 threshold mantra -- only to watch their eyes glaze over. Then, when they call the funny farm police, and drag him out, he'll be foaming at the mouth.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Then I would escalate matters, either in the branch or in the chain of command by going to higher authorities...didn't I say this already, it sounds like an echo to me!

Actually, it sounds like complete B*** S***. Until you actually have taxable income, and until then don't need a TIN, sit down and shut up. But, yes, I assume, if you tell -- and maybe show -- TRD that you have a taxable income situation -- they'll gladly issue a TIN. Otherwise, yes, then a situation for escalation.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I would point out to whoever, exactly what the TRD Code says and I'd remind whoever that I have assessable income, i

Like, I need a TIN, 'cause I have assessable income of 60K -- and the TRD Code says I need to file a tax return. And the agent says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of; nobody's ever come in here saying they have to file a tax return, even tho', after factoring in TEDA, they'd need another 500k of assessable income -- to finally have any taxable income." Such people we throw out on their ear -- as we take positive steps against stupid rules. Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow? What's that -- a crack pot service? The locals never beg for TINs they don't need. Crazy farangs.

[chiang mai]

Just now, JimGant said:

Like, I need a TIN, 'cause I have assessable income of 60K -- and the TRD Code says I need to file a tax return. And the agent says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of; nobody's ever come in here saying they have to file a tax return, even tho', after factoring in TEDA, they'd need another 500k of assessable income -- to finally have any taxable income." Such people we throw out on their ear -- as we take positive steps against stupid rules. Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow? What's that -- a crack pot service? The locals never beg for TINs they don't need. Crazy farangs.

You don't get to have this same old debate with me for the hundredth time, just because you're bored or you want to bait me. Go pour another drink and then go to bed.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Of course that's what he's saying. He'll quote the 60/120/220 threshold mantra

 

I think what he really means is if one has assessable Thai income from 2024 tax year + assessable foreign income brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, which combined is over the relevant Thai assessable income threshold (for filing an income tax return) then such a person needs to get a Thai TIN and file a Thai income tax return before the due date in early 2025.  In evaluating one's assessable foreign income, one also needs to consider the wording in the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) of the country from which one's foreign income originates. ...  I believe that is what he means.  ...  I concede I had difficulty at first in understanding that was his meaning, but I now believe that its what he means.   And I believe that makes sense.

 

I don't know the precise details as to thresholds nor tax return filing date.

 

And I suspect he also is strongly recommending each expatriate look at their own individual situation and if their assessable income meets the criteria I typed in the 1st para of this response, then it really behooves such individuals to get a Thai TIN as they will likely need to file a Thai tax return.

 

At present I believe this does not apply for me due to not having the pre-requisite assessable income brought into Thailand in the 2024 tax year nor from interest in Thailand (combined).

 

[samtam]

On 12/1/2024 at 1:18 PM, chiang mai said:

I doubt you will find information specific to credit and debit cards, it's more likely to be mentioned in passing since the method of funds remittance into Thailand can take many forms and not each one is mentioned specifically. It would be extremely naive to believe that only remittances that are transferred bank to bank via a TT are considered to be potentially tax assessable and that all others methods escape assessment.

 

My Bangkok RD has informed me, (via my Thai interlocutor), that foreign Credit Card spending will not be considered income. ATM withdrawals and Debit Card spending, using non Thai cards will be considered income.

 

Accordingly, I will proceed on that basis, when I file in January 2025.

 

 

On 12/1/2024 at 4:49 PM, jwest10 said:

Precisely and doubt that they will arrive and now in December and again I have been told by my local tax office I do not need to file a tax form and as have no income derived in Thailand and my allowances of 500k or 560K is in access of any pension income

 

Again, my local Bangkok RD has stated that I do need to file; I have no income in Thailand, but I have foreign sourced income over THB60K pa. The total income is below my TEDA (of THB500K), but I am told that I still need to file, (because it exceeds the THB60K, my personal allowance for unmarried).

 

 

49 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Like, I need a TIN, 'cause I have assessable income of 60K -- and the TRD Code says I need to file a tax return. And the agent says, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of; nobody's ever come in here saying they have to file a tax return, even tho', after factoring in TEDA, they'd need another 500k of assessable income -- to finally have any taxable income." Such people we throw out on their ear -- as we take positive steps against stupid rules. Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow? What's that -- a crack pot service? The locals never beg for TINs they don't need. Crazy farangs.

 

Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow?

 

From TRD Sathorn, Bangkok.

 

Please note, as others have commented, different RDs seem to be saying different things. I am only passing on what I have been informed by mine, albeit through my Thai interlocutor. When I actually go with him to obtain the TIN, by completing a Lor.Por.10.1 (as specified by said TRD Sathorn), and when they show me how to put in my foreign sourced income on the Por.Ngor.Dor 90 (which TRD Sathorn have specified), I will report back.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, samtam said:

Again, my local Bangkok RD has stated that I do need to file; I have no income in Thailand, but I have foreign sourced income over THB60K pa. The total income is below my TEDA (of THB500K), but I am told that I still need to file, (because it exceeds the THB60K, my personal allowance for unmarried).

 

....

Please note, as others have commented, different RDs seem to be saying different things.

 

I speculate (but do not know for certain) that Phuket RD may have stated the same as Bangkok RD if my details had been different. 

 

But when Phuket RD official was (accurately and truthfully) told I am bringing no money into Thailand from my foreign pension, and that I have no Thai income - they stated no TIN needed.   (Further they would not for an online tax return activate my pink-ID as an online TIN given they did not believe I needed a TIN).  They did thou state thou the pink-ID could be my online TIN once activated.

 

So no Thai income, and not bringing in foreign money into Thailand appears to be a clear line in which no TIN is needed (according to Phuket RD).

 

I brought money into Thailand prior to 1-Jan-2024 (enough to live off of for a few years or more) plus I brought a portion of that money into Thailand (in tax year 2023)  right after I obtained my LTR visa.

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

My Bangkok RD has informed me, (via my Thai interlocutor), that foreign Credit Card spending will not be considered income. ATM withdrawals and Debit Card spending, using non Thai cards will be considered income.

 

Accordingly, I will proceed on that basis, when I file in January 2025.

 

 

 

Again, my local Bangkok RD has stated that I do need to file; I have no income in Thailand, but I have foreign sourced income over THB60K pa. The total income is below my TEDA (of THB500K), but I am told that I still need to file, (because it exceeds the THB60K, my personal allowance for unmarried).

 

 

 

Where do all these stupid farangs asking for TINs get their info? Aseannow?

 

From TRD Sathorn, Bangkok.

 

Please note, as others have commented, different RDs seem to be saying different things. I am only passing on what I have been informed by mine, albeit through my Thai interlocutor. When I actually go with him to obtain the TIN, by completing a Lor.Por.10.1 (as specified by said TRD Sathorn), and when they show me how to put in my foreign sourced income on the Por.Ngor.Dor 90 (which TRD Sathorn have specified), I will report back.

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

I agree the ATM transactions are an easy one to decide, the CC trans. are more difficult so what you were told makes sense to me at least.

[samtam]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

I speculate (but do not know for certain) that Phuket RD may have stated the same as Bangkok RD if my details had been different. 

 

But when Phuket RD official was (accurately and truthfully) told I am bringing no money into Thailand from my foreign pension, and that I have no Thai income - they stated no TIN needed.   (Further they would not for an online tax return activate my pink-ID as an online TIN).  They did thou state thou the pink-ID could be my online TIN once activated.

 

So no Thai income, and not bringing in foreign money into Thailand appears to be a clear line in which no TIN is needed (according to Phuket RD).

 

I brought money into Thailand prior to 1-Jan-2024 (enough to live off of for a few years or more) plus I brought a portion of that money into Thailand (in tax year 2023)  right after I obtained my LTR visa.

 

I AM bringing money into Thailand from my UK State Pension, through ATM, debit cards, so that is why we have been given different answers. With respect to using my Pink ID as my TIN, I was told I would be given a different 13 digit number for my TIN, after completing the LP10.1.

 

My understanding about LTR, is that no foreign income brought into Thailand is subject to tax. But I am certainly not an expert on LTR, although I will apply next year to remove all of that which is now transpiring, wary however that even if there is "no tax" now, this may change...by issuance of another order and formalised by Royal Gazette. The tax loophole created by LTR seems completely at odds with those who do not have it, especially as LTR is for wealthy individuals. 

[samtam]

10 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So no Thai income, and not bringing in foreign money into Thailand appears to be a clear line in which no TIN is needed (according to Phuket RD).

 

Yes, absolutely. This makes sense, and seems to be the same as information provided by Bangkok RD.

[chiang mai]

24 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I think what he really means is if one has assessable Thai income from 2024 tax year + assessable foreign income brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, which combined is over the relevant Thai assessable income threshold (for filing an income tax return) then such a person needs to get a Thai TIN and file a Thai income tax return before the due date in early 2025.  In evaluating one's assessable foreign income, one also needs to consider the wording in the Double Tax Agreement (DTA) of the country from which one's foreign income originates. ...  I believe that is what he means.  ...  I concede I had difficulty at first in understanding that was his meaning, but I now believe that its what he means.   And I believe that makes sense.

 

I don't know the precise details as to thresholds nor tax return filing date.

 

And I suspect he also is strongly recommending each expatriate look at their own individual situation and if their assessable income meets the criteria I typed in the 1st para of this response, then it really behooves such individuals to get a Thai TIN as they will likely need to file a Thai tax return.

 

At present I believe this does not apply for me due to not having the pre-requisite assessable income brought into Thailand in the 2024 tax year nor from interest in Thailand (combined).

 

My definition of who must file a tax return and when, is exactly the same as the TRD's and the tax consultancies,....tax residency and assessable income above the 60k threshold. Assessable income excludes exempt income of any type, eg Por 162 exempt or DTA exempt etc. The 60k threshold is BEFORE TEDA is deducted.

[jayboy]

21 hours ago, JimGant said:

Actually, it sounds like complete B*** S***. Until you actually have taxable income, and until then don't need a TIN, sit down and shut up. But, yes, I assume, if you tell -- and maybe show -- TRD that you have a taxable income situation -- they'll gladly issue a TIN. Otherwise, yes, then a situation for escalation.

 

It's been said before several times that for many expatriates the pressure to obtain a TIN comes from overseas banks.When (or if) the time comes to file a Thai tax return, obtaining a TIN will be a simple administrative step.As it happens I did get one (my old employment one having lapsed), mainly because I recognized my attempts to fob off my Channel Islands bank were not getting anywhere.The TRD holds no terrors for me.Being debanked does.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

The TRD holds no terrors for me.Being debanked does.

 

Ohhhhh My Gawd jayboy, now you have gone and dunnit.

 

The vitriol and spittlefleck will be heading your way.

[beammeup]

OK so if you remit 400K after 01-01-2024 but it is savings from prior to 01-01-2024. and have bank statements to prove it. so non assessable. do you need to file a tax return?

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, beammeup said:

OK so if you remit 400K after 01-01-2024 but it is savings from prior to 01-01-2024. and have bank statements to prove it. so non assessable. do you need to file a tax return?

 

I'm no expert,  but I do not believe it is taxable.   But I can not tell from the Google translations of Paw.162 if such previous year (such as 2023) foreign income brought into Thailand in 2024 is not assessable, or if it is only tax exempt.  I have not seen an official RD english translation of Paw.162 so likely we will need to rely on the Thai to English language translations of others here.

 

Some of us have been hoping that when the English language Thai tax forms for tax year 2024 come out that this may be clarified, ... but these forms have not yet come out, and even if/when they do come out, they may not clarify this.

 

I keep checking here for the 2024 english language Thai Tax forms but no sign of such yet:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

My hope is that savings (ie income before 1-Jan-2024) will not be considered assessable income when brought into Thailand in the future.  Keeping records of one's finances as of 31-Dec-2023 is IMHO a very good idea.

[jayboy]

9 hours ago, beammeup said:

OK so if you remit 400K after 01-01-2024 but it is savings from prior to 01-01-2024. and have bank statements to prove it. so non assessable. do you need to file a tax return?

 

My understanding is that in such circumstances it is not necessary.