11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

No, maximum pension deduction is 50% of remitted pension income (maximum 100k baht), ergo, the maximum deduction is 50k baht.

Mmmm.  That's not how I read it.  But we will just wait and see.

 

Your table of allowances that you posted for a married man, over 65 with a non working spouse came to 560000 thai baht.

 

And that is where I gathered my info.

2 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Mmmm.  That's not how I read it.  But we will just wait and see.

I'm sorry, I made a mistake!

 

The tax guide says this:

 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

 

Sorry, I was trying to do three things at the same time and responded too quickly.

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm sorry, I made a mistake!

 

The tax guide says this:

 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

 

Sorry, I was trying to do three things at the same time and responded too quickly.

Well, now I am confused.

 

Is that 50% of pension received, with a maximum claimable of 100000k towards any allowances?

 

Or ...50% of 100000?   Which doesn't make sense.  Why not just say 50k of pension received, is deductible as an allowance

10 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Well, now I am confused.

 

Is that 50% of pension received, with a maximum claimable of 100000k towards any allowances?

 

Or ...50% of 100000?   Which doesn't make sense.  Why not just say 50k of pension received, is deductible as an allowance

It's OK Mike, I found this which is clearer.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is a link in the document in the OP that will let you download your DTA in English.

 

Also, US SSc is exempt, under DTA rules.

Yes, that is what I used to access the DTA. The left side of those 2 images are screen captures from the DTA between Thailand and the USA. The right side is a Google Translation of the same text into Thai, printed side by side to show the local TRD officer if asked to explain my bank cash flow vs what will be listed on the tax filing.
ALL of this discussion for me and many others would not be necessary if the Tax forms are revised to account for DTA exemptions from tax assessability/ consideration.

35 minutes ago, RPCVguy said:

Yes, that is what I used to access the DTA. The left side of those 2 images are screen captures from the DTA between Thailand and the USA. The right side is a Google Translation of the same text into Thai, printed side by side to show the local TRD officer if asked to explain my bank cash flow vs what will be listed on the tax filing.
ALL of this discussion for me and many others would not be necessary if the Tax forms are revised to account for DTA exemptions from tax assessability/ consideration.

We are told the new forms will be available in November/December

On 7/12/2024 at 5:13 PM, RPCVguy said:

ALL of this discussion for me and many others would not be necessary if the Tax forms are revised to account for DTA exemptions from tax assessability/ consideration.

A ridiculous request as there are 61 different DTAs 

On 7/14/2024 at 1:28 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

A ridiculous request as there are 61 different DTAs 

No. The Thai RD says they want all income listed. IF they stick by that demand, there are things our embassies would be remiss not to pressure for:
Step one would be to change the top line from saying "assessable Income" meaning subject to being taxed. All Income sources is what that line must be changed to state.
Then there needs to be a line declaring the amount not taxable and state the person's nationality as to which DTA is being used.
The TRD has the option to then audit or not.

This process is NOT what I would want to do, but it at least puts clerks at the TRD on notice that there are a large number of exemptions that Thailand agreed to... and did so to entice thousands of expats to move here and spend foreign earned currency in the country over months and years. It sure helped during the COVID pandemic to have that regular cash flow as trade struggled.
The good news should be that if someone makes it through their first audit (if ever required) the topics and line items for most expats will be the same each year.
 

23 minutes ago, RPCVguy said:

No. The Thai RD says they want all income listed. IF they stick by that demand, there are things our embassies would be remiss not to pressure for:
Step one would be to change the top line from saying "assessable Income" meaning subject to being taxed. All Income sources is what that line must be changed to state.
Then there needs to be a line declaring the amount not taxable and state the person's nationality as to which DTA is being used.
The TRD has the option to then audit or not.

This process is NOT what I would want to do, but it at least puts clerks at the TRD on notice that there are a large number of exemptions that Thailand agreed to... and did so to entice thousands of expats to move here and spend foreign earned currency in the country over months and years. It sure helped during the COVID pandemic to have that regular cash flow as trade struggled.
The good news should be that if someone makes it through their first audit (if ever required) the topics and line items for most expats will be the same each year.
 

 

IMHO we should wait and see what the 2024 forms actually say before jumping to any conclusions (or making any assumptions) as to what needs to be reported in any tax return.

 

I’m trying gradually to step away from the front line of the tax debates, it has after all been eight long months and I now have other things I would like to get involved in, elsewhere. Consequently I found myself looking more closely at the people who remain and was struck by their make up. In going forward, a problem I see is not in some members knowledge of tax but in the way they handle information,  the picture I have is this:

 

One of the most knowledgeable players has minimal regard for fact and draws nearly all their conclusions based on common sense, sentiment and emotion.

 

Another person who is heavily involved is a classic ideologue, they constantly attempt to make even the flimsiest evidence support their conclusions, which once formed, are very difficult to dislodge.

 

A third person is an ever present bi-stander who only comments on things said by others and has almost never offered  anything other than opinion and has never posted facts about Thai tax.

 

A fourth person is easily the most knowledgeable and capable by miles but mostly remains outside the mainstream debates these days. This is probably because he is smart enough to understand that there is no new news and probably wont be for some months, hence, there’s nothing new to talk about.

 

Fortunately, there is a significant underlying cast of members, who attend frequently, who, very much like me, are solely evidence based and want to see proof that something is true. It’s not difficult to see why the two groups are frequently at loggerheads. In the absence of hard fact, sentiment often becomes fact and this is the major risk, that opinion will become fact in some people’s minds.

 

I can’t stress too strongly how important I think it is that members demand to see indisputable and incontrovertible proof when anything significant is stated as fact.  Just being a daily presence in these discussions is not enough to make what is said, fact.

 

I accept that the search for consistent facts in a country such as Thailand, can sometimes be difficult because things can change without notice and decisions are often made, off the cuff. I also accept that rules here are sometimes ignored. None of those things mean however that decisions don’t get made and facts don’t exist, they do. Sometimes you just have to be patient or dig a little deeper, for most of us that just means waiting and for many people that’s painful.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I’m trying gradually to step away from the front line of the tax debates, it has after all been eight long months and I now have other things I would like to get involved in, elsewhere. Consequently I found myself looking more closely at the people who remain and was struck by their make up. In going forward, a problem I see is not in some members knowledge of tax but in the way they handle information,  the picture I have is this:

 

One of the most knowledgeable players has minimal regard for fact and draws nearly all their conclusions based on common sense, sentiment and emotion.

 

Another person who is heavily involved is a classic ideologue, they constantly attempt to make even the flimsiest evidence support their conclusions, which once formed, are very difficult to dislodge.

 

A third person is an ever present bi-stander who only comments on things said by others and has almost never offered  anything other than opinion and has never posted facts about Thai tax.

 

A fourth person is easily the most knowledgeable and capable by miles but mostly remains outside the mainstream debates these days. This is probably because he is smart enough to understand that there is no new news and probably wont be for some months, hence, there’s nothing new to talk about.

 

Fortunately, there is a significant underlying cast of members, who attend frequently, who, very much like me, are solely evidence based and want to see proof that something is true. It’s not difficult to see why the two groups are frequently at loggerheads. In the absence of hard fact, sentiment often becomes fact and this is the major risk, that opinion will become fact in some people’s minds.

 

I can’t stress too strongly how important I think it is that members demand to see indisputable and incontrovertible proof when anything significant is stated as fact.  Just being a daily presence in these discussions is not enough to make what is said, fact.

 

I accept that the search for consistent facts in a country such as Thailand, can sometimes be difficult because things can change without notice and decisions are often made, off the cuff. I also accept that rules here are sometimes ignored. None of those things mean however that decisions don’t get made and facts don’t exist, they do. Sometimes you just have to be patient or dig a little deeper, for most of us that just means waiting and for many people that’s painful.

 

Mike, many thanks for your contributions to all the tax debates. I am saddened but not surprised by your decision to lessen your involvement in the discussions.

In my considered opinion, you have clearly laid out the requirements in the "Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand," which I hope you will find the time to continue updating as new evidentiary news becomes available. I also hope that no one but you will have the authority to do so.

Considering my age, marital status, and various Thai-based albeit small investments, I will always try to rely on fact-based evidence, especially in relation to the tax laws. Being a retired guest in this country with absolutely no prior knowledge of Thai laws pertinent to my personal status, I appreciate you very much for opening my eyes.

It will be interesting to see the quality of contributions produced by the other four individuals without your participation. Oh well.

An issue for me in all of this is: Will my 'spouse' (Thai male) in a gay marriage (actually Australian Capital Territory civil partnership dating from 2013, before 'gay marriage' was available in Oz) count as a 'spouse' next year when I prepare my first-ever Thai tax return?

 

It appears to be advantageous to do a joint return, particularly when your spouse has - as in my case - no independent income.

5 hours ago, mfd101 said:

An issue for me in all of this is: Will my 'spouse' (Thai male) in a gay marriage (actually Australian Capital Territory civil partnership dating from 2013, before 'gay marriage' was available in Oz) count as a 'spouse' next year when I prepare my first-ever Thai tax return?

 

It appears to be advantageous to do a joint return, particularly when your spouse has - as in my case - no independent income.

You raise a point that only a lawyer can answer conclusively, my opinion is that you can but that's only an opinion. The advantage of course, as you realise, is the additional PA of 60k which is certainly useful.

On 7/20/2024 at 7:58 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

It will be interesting to see the quality of contributions produced by the other four individuals without your participation. Oh well.

 

Maybe our safest course of action would be to place this particular quartet on Ignore?

 

On 7/20/2024 at 10:12 AM, mfd101 said:

An issue for me in all of this is: Will my 'spouse' (Thai male) in a gay marriage (actually Australian Capital Territory civil partnership dating from 2013, before 'gay marriage' was available in Oz) count as a 'spouse' next year when I prepare my first-ever Thai tax return?

 

It appears to be advantageous to do a joint return, particularly when your spouse has - as in my case - no independent income.

Why will you be filling out a tax return next year?

Have you started working in Thailand?

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Why will you be filling out a tax return next year?

Because my Australian bank - creature of the Australian Tax Office - is insisting I have a Thai TIN and has frozen one of my accounts till I do.

 

Once I have a Thai TIN I don't have much choice - it seems to me - but to lodge a tax return each year, starting next Jan-Mar. As my only income comes from Federal Government superannuation & must therefore be taxed - I think - ONLY in Oz (s.19/2 of the DTA), I don't expect I'll end up paying anything extra here in Thailand. Fingers crossed.

 

I'll have a better idea after next Tuesday when I plan to call on the worthies of the TRD here in Prasat Surin. It may be an interesting life experience. Or not.

7 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Because my Australian bank - creature of the Australian Tax Office - is insisting I have a Thai TIN and has frozen one of my accounts till I do.

 

Once I have a Thai TIN I don't have much choice - it seems to me - but to lodge a tax return each year, starting next Jan-Mar. As my only income comes from Federal Government superannuation & must therefore be taxed - I think - ONLY in Oz (s.19/2 of the DTA), I don't expect I'll end up paying anything extra here in Thailand. Fingers crossed.

 

I'll have a better idea after next Tuesday when I plan to call on the worthies of the TRD here in Prasat Surin. It may be an interesting life experience. Or not.

 

First of all, are you sure your Australian bank won't accept the "Yes I am a tax resident of Thailand, but have not been issued a TIN yet?" . That's commonly accepted as a valid reason.

 

Secondly, you can apply for and be granted a TIN, and give it to your Australian Bank to keep them happy with their KYC compliance for non residents. This does not mean you have to file a tax return in Thailand. Having a TIN doesn't force you to file a tax return. You do have a choice. 

2 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

First of all, are you sure your Australian bank won't accept the "Yes I am a tax resident of Thailand, but have not been issued a TIN yet?" . That's commonly accepted as a valid reason.

 

Secondly, you can apply for and be granted a TIN, and give it to your Australian Bank to keep them happy with their KYC compliance for non residents. This does not mean you have to file a tax return in Thailand. Having a TIN doesn't force you to file a tax return. You do have a choice. 

Well, they weren't accepting of my response along those lines for the last few weeks. Though my answer was more along the lines 'The Thais won't give me one till next year when I have to lodge my first tax return here'.

 

On your second point, I'm assuming that - having received a TIN - I can either do nothing on the basis that my income can be taxed ONLY in Oz, or - I think more likely because of the amount of money I bring in to Thailand each year to support me, my b/f & his family - I will have to lodge a return but with no tax to pay.

11 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Well, they weren't accepting of my response along those lines for the last few weeks. Though my answer was more along the lines 'The Thais won't give me one till next year when I have to lodge my first tax return here'.

 

On your second point, I'm assuming that - having received a TIN - I can either do nothing on the basis that my income can be taxed ONLY in Oz, or - I think more likely because of the amount of money I bring in to Thailand each year to support me, my b/f & his family - I will have to lodge a return but with no tax to pay.

I am an Australian non-resident for tax purpose.

My Australian bank used to accepts Reason B.

Reason A: The country of tax residency does not issue TINs to tax residents
(Only valid for Bahrain, The Bahamas, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Monaco, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands, United Arab Emirates)
Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN
Reason C - The country of tax residency does not require the TIN to be disclosed (Only valid for Japan)

I just recently obtained a Thai TIN and notified my Australian bank accordingly.

3 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I am an Australian non-resident for tax purpose.

My Australian bank used to accepts Reason B.

Reason A: The country of tax residency does not issue TINs to tax residents
(Only valid for Bahrain, The Bahamas, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Monaco, Montserrat, Turks and Caicos Islands, United Arab Emirates)
Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN
Reason C - The country of tax residency does not require the TIN to be disclosed (Only valid for Japan)

I just recently obtained a Thai TIN and notified my Australian bank accordingly.

 

"Used to accepts"?

 

Fact is, that they still typically accept that as a reason, however you recently decided to provide them with a TIN.

 

Either way ( whether you get a Thai TIN issued or not)  it makes zero difference to your Thai Tax return, and whether you submit one or not. That's a separate issue. This is only about notifying Australian Banks of your residency status.

 

 

7 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN

As far as I can (now) judge, my bank doesn't like me saying in effect 'There's no point in me doing anything till early next year', meaning 'I won't even try' ... Anyway, I've moved on in my understanding & I will try this coming week ...

5 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

As far as I can (now) judge, my bank doesn't like me saying in effect 'There's no point in me doing anything till early next year', meaning 'I won't even try' ... Anyway, I've moved on in my understanding & I will try this coming week ...

Good luck and will be interested in the outcome.

12 hours ago, mfd101 said:

As far as I can (now) judge, my bank doesn't like me saying in effect 'There's no point in me doing anything till early next year', meaning 'I won't even try' ... Anyway, I've moved on in my understanding & I will try this coming week ...

My Australian bank sends me a 'Tax Status Declaration form - Individuals' twice a year, which they expect me to fill out and return promptly. I always used 'Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN,' which they accepted. Since receiving my Thai TIN, I have notified my bank accordingly.

On a different matter, since your post (posted Saturday at 10:12 AM (edited)), I have been receiving all notifications meant for you also. I have no idea what's causing this but suspect that something went awry with your edited post.

48 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

My Australian bank sends me a 'Tax Status Declaration form - Individuals' twice a year, which they expect me to fill out and return promptly. I always used 'Reason B: The individual has not been issued with a TIN,' which they accepted. Since receiving my Thai TIN, I have notified my bank accordingly.

On a different matter, since your post (posted Saturday at 10:12 AM (edited)), I have been receiving all notifications meant for you also. I have no idea what's causing this but suspect that something went awry with your edited post.

My bank is NAB and their form doesn't give that option.

 

Don't know what the 2nd bit means. or how to fix.

On 7/20/2024 at 7:58 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

It will be interesting to see the quality of contributions produced by the other four individuals without your participation. Oh well.

 

Upon reflection, I don't think that we need have too much fear about what this particular individual might have to say, whoever he might be!

 

On 7/20/2024 at 5:58 AM, Mike Lister said:

A fourth person is easily the most knowledgeable and capable by miles but mostly remains outside the mainstream debates these days. This is probably because he is smart enough to understand that there is no new news and probably wont be for some months, hence, there’s nothing new to talk about.

 

EDIT: The remaining trio are now on my Ignore list!

 

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

My bank is NAB and their form doesn't give that option.

INFO: https://www.nabtrade.com.au/content/dam/nabtrade/pdfs/Disclosure_Docs/Foreign_tax_status_info_pack.pdf

FORM: https://www.nab.com.au/help-support/personal-banking/manage-online-banking/tax-residency-details
Scroll down to: Download and complete the form and select (click onto): Individuals - Tax residency self-certification form (PDF, 596KB)
SELECT ONE AND PROVIDE AN EXPLANATION IF APPLICABLE:

Reason codes:
A – Country doesn’t issue TINs
B – I don’t have a TIN (please provide explanation)
C – It is not mandatory to disclose a TIN for this country

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

Don't know what the 2nd bit means. or how to fix.

It means that all notifications sent to you are also being sent to me, which isn't a problem afaic. I just thought I would let you know that maybe something went awry during the editing process of your post. I think this minor glitch can only be fixed at the support or moderator level. However, I wouldn't worry too much as this is happening with this particular thread only.

13 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

 

 

14 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I think this minor glitch can only be fixed at the support or moderator level. However, I wouldn't worry too much as this is happening with this particular thread only.

OK

Without digging through pages of threads I am unsure if this guidance from the Revenue Dept has been shared before ?? If it has my apologies and ignore

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l0uv2e9anPg9tgs9WzuBTQSETFQhzqJu/view?usp=sharing

Very simple guidance, but one part that jumped out is attached, which clearly implies that even if you do now have a tax liability, anyone who has an income will need to file, even if that income means your protected under DTA or other taxed at source earnings. 
 

On 7/21/2024 at 5:24 PM, xylophone said:

Good luck and will be interested in the outcome.

I went to the Prasat Revenue Office here in Surin province this morning. All as you might predict (if you're an optimist).

 

Girls behind the desk very helpful. Took a little bit of back'n forth between them & my b/f for them to fully understand the matter in hand). Possible implication (though I didn't ask): May not be too familiar with dealing with non-Thais, but it wasn't a problem & they were very courteous to this ol' man. Then copies of p/p, house book, & Immigration record of our address (as I'm not actually IN the house book), then my signature on the multiple copies. Print out of the result in Thai, with the TIN very clear. Unsigned by the Big Boss till tomorrow. Pick up Thursday morning.

 

Meantime I have sent off to the NAB the requisite (unsigned) doco but clearly showing the TIN. Tried not to sound too triumphant.

 

As pointed out above, none of this means I HAVE to lodge a return early next year. My current thought is that, unless further information, rules 'n regs are forthcoming, I won't do anything because I think I'm 100% covered by the Oz/Thai DTA s.19(2). (However the entry immediately above this suggests I will have to. In which case so be it.)

31 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

As pointed out above, none of this means I HAVE to lodge a return early next year. My current thought is that, unless further information, rules 'n regs are forthcoming, I won't do anything because I think I'm 100% covered by the Oz/Thai DTA s.19(2).

FYI: I think the spreadsheet for calculating taxes provided by 'pauku1' is pretty nifty. Naturally, you will have to consider the DTA, ymmv.
<https://aseannow.com/topic/1318120-revenue-department-contact-reports/#comment-18647010>