Nine Anti-coup Leaders Detained

Tony Clifton · July 31, 2007

Detained court chief to ask court to free anti-coup leaders
That must be one of the many contortionists involved in the "justice system" while under Thaksin, bending over backwards to lick the PMs posterior. Ugly picture but it was done.

It might be a slightly difficult concept to understand, but there are many coup opponents who have also been opponents of Thaksin.

So they say, while wearing yellow shirts.

Chameleons.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Tony Clifton

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

Without signing and accepting charges, they are exercising Article 90 of Thailand's Criminal Code under the terms of which they are entitled to be released, the former chief justice of the Criminal Court said.

It'd be interesting to see just how Art. 90 is written. They seem to suggesting that if they simply didn't sign the charges, then they are simply allowed to go free?

Something tells me that's not exactly how things work in a criminal case.

John K · July 31, 2007

I guess we will see if this qualifies for one of the stupid people awards in day or so. The actions are so exaggerated it is actually funny.

A_Traveller · July 31, 2007

If memory serves Article 90 refers to Concurrency of Offences. In essence it proscribes that punishment should be measured by the most serious of the concurrent offences.

I guess I must be out of date though given a Judge is making this point. Anyone else?

Regards

/edit typo //

Edited July 31, 2007 by A_Traveller

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

Detained court chief to ask court to free anti-coup leaders
That must be one of the many contortionists involved in the "justice system" while under Thaksin, bending over backwards to lick the PMs posterior. Ugly picture but it was done.

It might be a slightly difficult concept to understand, but there are many coup opponents who have also been opponents of Thaksin.

So they say, while wearing yellow shirts.

Chameleons.

What is your point?

Anyhow, Dr. Weng, for example was even briefly member of the PAD, and distanced himself from Sondhi L., mostly because Dr. Weng's aims of having a true democracy clashed with Sondhi L.'s ideas of royal, military or any other entirely undemocratic intervention.

Jaran, being a Human Rights commissioner, was outspoken against Thaksin, especially at the time of the drugwar killings, while most significant PAD leaders were still applauding Thaksin, and present military leaders collaborated willingly in the killings.

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

If only these anti-coup groups had distanced themselves from the TRT group... so much more validity and credibility would have been accorded to them... but then, they wouldn't have had the crowds or the financial support and so their message wouldn't have been as widely covered.

Oh well, it was their choice to hang with the rock-throwing mob of TRT'ers, and as the old saying goes,

lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

Plus · July 31, 2007

Well, it's my "lack of decency" comment about Colpyat that drew most attention, the rest were ok, I guess.

This is my opinion and as such it doesn't have to be politically correct. I've read Colpyat's posts for a while now and I've made my mind over the time, a few comments by other posters are not going to influence my opinion very strongly.

The basis for this opinion is quite a few posts where Colpyat cunningly twisted basic facts after they'd faded away from most posters memory. If one wants to search for them, I think I mentioned "revision of history" a couple of times in response. I absolutely detest this kind of deception from someone who at the same time promotes himself as an intellectual looking for "academic" discussion.

I KNOW Colpyat won't hesitate to "misrepresent" the truth to suit his agenda. That's not a decent person in my book.

About socialists vs. social democrats - I've seen enough quotes and references to Giles, who is a known marxist, and I've seen lots of arguments made from Giles/marxist point of view. I've also seen numerous arguments against traditional Thai elite and mainstream Thai history, so I don't see Colpyat moving left from capitalism, as usually social democrats do, his views are not about improving the system - he wants its destruction and complete overwrite. Democrat Party would be a good example of social democrats - see how much Colpyat appreciates their efforts.

Colpyat is coming from the left, even extreme left, in the sense that he can't find any compromise with any other Thai political group. Somehow I'm not surprised that Giles cannot find any suitable demonstrations to join anymore.

That's all the clarifications I'm going to make on my post. Take it or leave it. It's just an opinion, and it's off topic.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

About the detainees.

There was a letter in the Nation a few days ago from someone who was personally involved with Jakrapop's early career at the Foreign Ministry. His education was on government sponsorships and his career was rising thanks to the powers that recongised his ablities but at one moment things turned sour and Jakrapop openly complained about Thai feudal sakdina system. From then on he made his own choices, eventually making to Thaksin's spokesman position and a big title of a deputy PM.

Are PTV, DAAD and UDD rallies paid by Thaksin? They are certainly not free, more so with the widely reported rumors of money being paid to those who attend. We have an account of Jakrapop speaking to reporters about receiving 40 million baht from Thaksin (or his wife, or brother in law - what's the difference?). The amount is not so big, Thaksin might simply ask for a favour from one of people indebted to him.

Majority of demonstrators are Thaksin's supporters.

Their goal is to reinstate Thaksin as the PM.

I think that leaves a very little chance of someone else bankrolling all their expenses, some true lovers of democracy who don't mind paying Thaksin's mobs just to get faces like Jaran and Weng on stage.

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

Democrat Party would be a good example of social democrats - see how much Colpyat appreciates their efforts.

Your continuing ad hominem attacks besides - you are absolutely wrong. The Democrats in a European context would be closer to a very conservative party, any further right would be troubling.

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

same, same nearly 15 months ago...

There are not thousands of overseas scholarships, numbers are not that big, besides sending kids to study overseas can hardly be called a "reform".

Thanks for the posting, Plus.

I've grown weary of posting to correct colpyat's factual errors and exaggerations, but I certainly appreciate your efforts to set the record straight.

Plus · July 31, 2007

We are not in a European context, Democrats attempts at building a better society often intend to go a lot further than the society is ready to accept and support.

Care to demonstrate any examples of "very conservative party" policies?

Free education for as many years as possible? Healthcare that intends to have rich pay for the poor? Decentralisation of administrative powers and government budgets to stimulate regional development?

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

The basis for this opinion is quite a few posts where Colpyat cunningly twisted basic facts after they'd faded away from most posters memory. If one wants to search for them, I think I mentioned "revision of history" a couple of times in response. I absolutely detest this kind of deception from someone who at the same time promotes himself as an intellectual looking for "academic" discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

About the detainees.

Are PTV, DAAD and UDD rallies paid by Thaksin? They are certainly not free, more so with the widely reported rumors of money being paid to those who attend. We have an account of Jakrapop speaking to reporters about receiving 40 million baht from Thaksin (or his wife, or brother in law - what's the difference?). The amount is not so big, Thaksin might simply ask for a favour from one of people indebted to him.

Majority of demonstrators are Thaksin's supporters.

Their goal is to reinstate Thaksin as the PM.

I think that leaves a very little chance of someone else bankrolling all their expenses, some true lovers of democracy who don't mind paying Thaksin's mobs just to get faces like Jaran and Weng on stage.

Mustn't forget to include the ADD in the alphabet-soup Thaksinistas... the Attention Deficit Disorder acronym suited them most aptly.

What legitimacy the non-TRT'ers had is lost in the contaminated soup mixture, which actually, is a shame.

Edited July 31, 2007 by sriracha john

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

If only these anti-coup groups had distanced themselves from the TRT group... so much more validity and credibility would have been accorded to them... but then, they wouldn't have had the crowds or the financial support and so their message wouldn't have been as widely covered.
Oh well, it was their choice to hang with the rock-throwing mob of TRT'ers, and as the old saying goes,

lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

Not by you, having just glanced through your comments on those groups from last year.

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

We are not in a European context, Democrats attempts at building a better society often intend to go a lot further than the society is ready to accept and support.
Care to demonstrate any examples of "very conservative party" policies?

Free education for as many years as possible? Healthcare that intends to have rich pay for the poor? Decentralisation of administrative powers and government budgets to stimulate regional development?

Democrat "attempts of building a better society" have so far been squashed by their own corruption (see the Sor Por 401 scandal), the inactivity of their leaders (that's what Chuan was most famous for, other than his sharp tongue), and their absolutely odious coalition partners they had to get together with as they have never cared for properly campaigning in the North and Northeast on a policy platform responding to those sector's problems.

Yes, we are in Thai context, and you have compared the Democrats with Social Democrats in the first place, which is a European context. But no, not in European context or in Thai context are the Democrats in any way Social Democratic - they have always been very conservative. In the past the extreme sector, which i would call fascist, was led by the horrible Samak, who seems to make a return now again, and people like Chuan, who represented the conservative civilian sector.

There was a brief period in the 70s when Thailand had a few social democrat parties, but they were forbidden. There is no social democratic party left in Thailand. In whatever context you may think of.

TRT had a few factions that were somewhat social democratic, but it was not a social democratic party. But that's about it.

aaaaaa · July 31, 2007

it is funny to see all the Thaksin-bashing hysteria, while avoding the more important issues of less democratic upcoming charter (BTW a lot of corruption and money swindling during the process of printing and delivery of yellow book), and many other issues. if the whole thing is about Democracy - why not concentrate on the things which would or wont make country more democratic?

and several times there were statements that it is not sure that Thaksin is behind all those events anyway:

http://nationmultimedia.com/search/page.ne...amp;id=30042444

Nation, Jul 25, 2007

(same thing again on Jul 26: http://nationmultimedia.com/search/page.ne...mp;id=30042512)

Surayud refused to comment on whether Thaksin was behind the DAAD protest, but he said no evidence had so far linked Thaksin to the violence

Sonthi too, although earlier said Thaksin IS involved ( Sonthi hints at Thaksin role in violence outside Prem's house ) later admited that Thaksin's involvement isn't sure (or did The Nation refer to another Gen. Sonthi in their article dated same as Bkk Post's below ? ):

Surayud: UDD aims to damage monarchy

(This is G o o g l e's cache of

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/25Jul2007_news01.php

as retrieved on 25 Jul 2007 16:49:35 GMT.)

Bkk Post, Wednesday July 25, 2007

Gen Sonthi denied allegations that soldiers had dressed as policemen and attacked the demonstrators on Sunday night. The CNS chairman also said reports that Mr Thaksin was secretly financing the UDD demonstrators could not be confirmed.

this article is still available on AsiaViews, Edition: 26/IV/July/2007 with reference to Bangkok Post, 25 July 2007 :

http://www.asiaviews.org/?content=153499ym...=20070726022225

seems like Bkk Post take out their material very fast !

well, even though persent PM and CNS boss said NO evidence of Thaksin pulling the stings behind that protest, some people here on TV are staunchly adhere to that speculation and eagerly base their whole debates on that !

Edited July 31, 2007 by aaaaaa

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

If only these anti-coup groups had distanced themselves from the TRT group... so much more validity and credibility would have been accorded to them... but then, they wouldn't have had the crowds or the financial support and so their message wouldn't have been as widely covered.
Oh well, it was their choice to hang with the rock-throwing mob of TRT'ers, and as the old saying goes,

lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

Not by you, having just glanced through your comments on those groups from last year.

I would hazard to suppose that the majority of my comments center on the fact that the majority of these groups are TRT-centered/controlled/financed/supported/etc. and thus have no credibility in my opinon.

The non-TRT'ers, on the other hand, can certainly make points of contention and protest differing views and offer alternatives to the current government or other legitimate dissent that can be done so peacefully.

Has the junta been perfect? Absolutely not. Has the government made mistakes? Certainly.

The problem lies in that...

Did these non-TRT'ers prostitute themselves simply in order to be heard by a bigger crowd? Apparently.

tijnebijn · July 31, 2007

Do not get discouraged Colpyat , your intellectual capabilities and wisdom is being envied .

People who are bashing other people but not giving any solutions themselves on these very

complicated issues is calling names to themselves in this case !

Not that it matters that any of us has got different opinions , most is political so there always will be

differential . Anyway I love to read the discussions , and think sometimes posters do not understand

CLP his intentions . Just my opinion .

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

I would hazard to suppose that the majority of my comments center on the fact that the majority of these groups are TRT-centered/controlled/financed/supported/etc. and thus have no credibility in my opinon.
The non-TRT'ers, on the other hand, can certainly make points of contention and protest differing views and offer alternatives to the current government or other legitimate dissent that can be done so peacefully.

Has the junta been perfect? Absolutely not. Has the government made mistakes? Certainly.

The problem lies in that...

Did these non-TRT'ers prostitute themselves simply in order to be heard by a bigger crowd? Apparently.

If you follow only the media, than this might appear so. Unfortunately Thai media is under heavy censorship and/or extremely biased, and most foreign based media is simply so disinterested that they mostly copy from Thai English language media.

So far, the best reporting available on the present political situation right now available to the public is by Daniel Ten Kate on Asiasentinel. Also Bangkokpundit has some very good articles.

But in the end - you have to look yourself and make up your own mind, and not just believe what is written and/or heavily edited on TV. That is what i prefer to do.

Edited July 31, 2007 by ColPyat

sriracha john · July 31, 2007

In case you are unaware, that is what everyone does.

Any opinon is based upon the sum total of a number of inputs.

ColPyat · July 31, 2007

In case you are unaware, that is what everyone does.
Any opinon is based upon the sum total of a number of inputs.

Everyone?

I doubt that very much.

Been many times at Sanam Luang during the demonstrations? Conversed with any of the 9 arrested leaders in person?

domreknaw · July 31, 2007

In case you are unaware, that is what everyone does.
Any opinon is based upon the sum total of a number of inputs.

Everyone?

I doubt that very much.

Been many times at Sanam Luang during the demonstrations? Conversed with any of the 9 arrested leaders in person?

SJ cannot as he is part of the junta

endure · July 31, 2007

Well, it's my "lack of decency" comment about Colpyat that drew most attention, the rest were ok, I guess.
This is my opinion and as such it doesn't have to be politically correct. I've read Colpyat's posts for a while now and I've made my mind over the time, a few comments by other posters are not going to influence my opinion very strongly.

The basis for this opinion is quite a few posts where Colpyat cunningly twisted basic facts after they'd faded away from most posters memory. If one wants to search for them, I think I mentioned "revision of history" a couple of times in response. I absolutely detest this kind of deception from someone who at the same time promotes himself as an intellectual looking for "academic" discussion.

I KNOW Colpyat won't hesitate to "misrepresent" the truth to suit his agenda. That's not a decent person in my book.

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jumnien · August 1, 2007

Interesting to refer to political prisoners as "jail-birds".

John K · August 1, 2007

If only these anti-coup groups had distanced themselves from the TRT group... so much more validity and credibility would have been accorded to them... but then, they wouldn't have had the crowds or the financial support and so their message wouldn't have been as widely covered.
Oh well, it was their choice to hang with the rock-throwing mob of TRT'ers, and as the old saying goes,

lay down with dogs and wake up with fleas.

I have to agree here with the guilt by association thing. Everything the Thaksin name touches becomes tainted or sucked dry in one form or another. It is expected that not everyone feels the new constitution is right. Because Thaksin feels this way because it has teeth and they are seen as Thaksin supporters even if they are not. It has turned out to be a huge tactical error for them to blend with the pro Thaksin self serving big money for me and little for you group. Even the group that allowed Thaksin to buy Manchester (good moral character or whatever they call it) is now starting to look tainted especially after “Human Rights Watch” had a go at it yesterday.

Plus · August 1, 2007

Free education for as many years as possible? Healthcare that intends to have rich pay for the poor? Decentralisation of administrative powers and government budgets to stimulate regional development?

Yes, we are in Thai context, and you have compared the Democrats with Social Democrats in the first place, which is a European context. But no, not in European context or in Thai context are the Democrats in any way Social Democratic - they have always been very conservative. In the past the extreme sector, which i would call fascist, was led by the horrible Samak, who seems to make a return now again, and people like Chuan, who represented the conservative civilian sector.

What exactly makes Democrats "very conservative"??? You've repeated it a few times already without giving any basis for your opinion.

They might appear conservative to someone from extreme left, though.

ColPyat · August 1, 2007

Free education for as many years as possible? Healthcare that intends to have rich pay for the poor? Decentralisation of administrative powers and government budgets to stimulate regional development?

Yes, we are in Thai context, and you have compared the Democrats with Social Democrats in the first place, which is a European context. But no, not in European context or in Thai context are the Democrats in any way Social Democratic - they have always been very conservative. In the past the extreme sector, which i would call fascist, was led by the horrible Samak, who seems to make a return now again, and people like Chuan, who represented the conservative civilian sector.

What exactly makes Democrats "very conservative"??? You've repeated it a few times already without giving any basis for your opinion.

They might appear conservative to someone from extreme left, though.

Mostly pro business policies, only very rudimentary social policies, strict adherence to the status quo, etc.

Anyhow, as i have mentioned in a previous post - their policies are so under-developed that it is a bit of a stretch to call them a political party.

If you want to know about "Social Democracy", then i would suggest reading up on it. I believe you have certain difficulties on its definition. In your eyes "Social Democracy" might be already extreme left, but that says more about the political corner you come from, than where i come from.

Plus · August 1, 2007

You mean to say that social democrats are meant to be anti-business?

Which of Democrat's business policies are not "pro-people" as well?

"...strict adherence to the status quo..."

Not true. Decentralisation is the most threatening policy to the status quo, and I believe Democrats are serious about it.

ColPyat · August 1, 2007

You mean to say that social democrats are meant to be anti-business?
Which of Democrat's business policies are not "pro-people" as well?

"...strict adherence to the status quo..."

Not true. Decentralisation is the most threatening policy to the status quo, and I believe Democrats are serious about it.

This is turning anal.

Please read up on "Social Democracy" and what it means (slightly extended version, please) before you discuss any further.

hammered · August 1, 2007

For what it is worth. I think that using western political labels on Thai parties is probably best avoided. All of the parties right now seem to be a strand of what we would call right or center right but that doesnt really take into account family/clan nature of some parties which can see them just have polices to suit family/clan or to just get as much power as possible.

Maybe in time a party system similar to what the west knows will develop, but expecting it 70 years after feudalism may be a little demanding. Right now there is probably a need for a few settled parties to remian in existence for a few decades and go through a bunch of leadership and executive changes just to show they are viable and built round an ideology rather than a family of clan. But whatever, the unique style of Thai policial parties right now does provide us with an endless source of entertainment.

Plus · August 1, 2007

Ok, here's an example - after the crisis Democrats set up an auction to quickly sell assets of bankrupt companies. Didn't win many friends in business circles but kept government budget for the whole country. Later, when non-perfomring loans reached alarming levels, Democrats told the banks to sort it out themselves and not hope to use public money.

In comparison when TRT took over they quickly opened the purse, spent 700 billion baht to bail out hundreds of businesses, and let taxpayers foot the bill.

With bad loans written off companies immediately booked profits and their stock value skyrocketed and the big businesses enjoyed the windfall.

Democrats were considering that option, too, but it was against their political ideology to use country's budget to benefit few richest people in the country at the expense of millions.

Plus · August 1, 2007

This is turning anal. huh?!?
Please read up on "Social Democracy" and what it means (slightly extended version, please) before you discuss any further.

Since Colpyat insists...

Straight from Wiki:

Views of social democrats today

In general, contemporary social democrats support:

A mixed economy consisting mainly of private enterprise, but with government owned or subsidised programs of education, healthcare, child care etc for all citizens.