British woman's mother in mourning after her daughter is found dead in a Bangkok hotel

[tandor]

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

She was cremated on 10 May according to the funeral notice.

 

all i can offer is the authorities have examined her remains and retieved their specimens for further analysis or accepted the findings of the Royal Thai Forensic Science's investigation. (bear in mind a full Toxicology analysis can take up to six weeks to complete). It appears the Inquest is open and once the results are forwarded to the Coroner, he will make a Public Finding, either meaning the end of the matter or if something requires further investigation or evidence reveals charges should be laid, then the matter will be referred to UK CID for further investigation which may bring them to Bangkok to follow up on.

[BobBKK]

8 hours ago, tandor said:

any Sudden Death occurring in Thailand, the cause of which is unknown will have an Autopsy before being released and Repatriated, after the Certificate as to The Cause of Death has been written. If the family wish to have a 2nd Autopsy they can at their expense. I fail to see why the COD should be made public. Folk die in hotels every day of the week around the world.

 Is that right?  maybe just for foreigners certainly not for Thais? 

 

[Georgealbert]

3 minutes ago, tandor said:

all i can offer is the authorities have examined her remains and retieved their specimens for further analysis or accepted the findings of the Royal Thai Forensic Science's investigation. (bear in mind a full Toxicology analysis can take up to six weeks to complete). It appears the Inquest is open and once the results are forwarded to the Coroner, he will make a Public Finding, either meaning the end of the matter or if something requires further investigation or evidence reveals charges should be laid, then the matter will be referred to UK CID for further investigation which may bring them to Bangkok to follow up on.

We are agreeing in principle to what will happen in this case.

 

My point is that the coroner must have some concerns with what is stated in the Thai autopsy, or an inquest would not be required. The family can only report the death to the coroner,, they can not demand an inquest. 

 

The UK police would only get involved if the inquest conclusion, is unlawful death, which seems to me, to be  unlikely, given the lack of any previous information or media coverage about these deaths.

[cowellandrew]

buying dolls from needy children and giving them to those less fortunate than themselves. 

 

Those poor needy children now have no dolls!

😂😂

[tandor]

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 Is that right?  maybe just for foreigners certainly not for Thais? 

 

well, if the family can get a Court Order preventing the Autopsy which has happened due to Religious persuasions...case by case.

[tandor]

4 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

We are agreeing in principle to what will happen in this case.

 

My point is that the coroner must have some concerns with what is stated in the Thai autopsy, or an inquest would not be required. The family can only report the death to the coroner,, they can not demand an inquest. 

 

The UK police would only get involved if the inquest conclusion, is unlawful death, which seems to me, to be  unlikely, given the lack of any previous information or media coverage about these deaths.

the family can apply for an inquest via their Attorney-General's Department.

[Georgealbert]

12 minutes ago, tandor said:

the family can apply for an inquest via their Attorney-General's Department.

Yes, but is that not normally for more high profile cases.
 

This death has been so low key, not even picked up by the UK national press and no accusations from the family in their statements.

 

Will have to wait and see if any further reports come out after the hearing on 4 June.

[cardinalblue]

Should not even had written the story w/o not reporting cause of death…

 

what’s the point? 

[tandor]

9 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes, but is that not normally for more high profile cases.
 

This death has been so low key, not even picked up by the UK national press and no accusations from the family in their statements.

 

Will have to wait and see if any further reports come out after the hearing on 4 June.

it's entirely in the hands of the family to push for it..obviously the UK Police have accepted the findings made by RTP.

[Georgealbert]

43 minutes ago, tandor said:

it's entirely in the hands of the family to push for it..obviously the UK Police have accepted the findings made by RTP.

Yes the family has clearly reported this to the East Sussex coroner. Why they reported it is not known from the details available in the reports.

 

It will be the coroner that decides how the death is then processed, the coroner can declare the cause of death is clear and no further action is needed, can order additional autopsy or tests, and/or hold an inquest.

 

There are 5 inquests due to open on 4 June, at that coroner’s court, so if this death is anything other that routine, it will be adjourned to later for a full hearing.

Edited June 1 by Georgealbert

[BritManToo]

20 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Never heard of this stuff actually happening to people myself in Thailand / Asia. I do remember they did this at a guesthouse I used to stay at a lot, they would need to close for several days before being able to open again. I could imagine we breathe bad things at places all the time, that have mid or long term impacts potentially, but is there seriously like the danger here to be in a room, where it just kills 2 people instantly, by staying there 1 or a couple of nights? Sounds like WW2 stories.

Happened in Chang Mai a while back ....... they knocked the hotel down in the end.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14543759

[tandor]

30 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes the family has clearly reported this to the East Sussex coroner. Why they reported it is not known from the details available in the reports.

 

It will be the coroner that decides how the death is then processed, the coroner can declare the cause of death is clear and no further action is needed, can order additional autopsy or tests, and/or hold an inquest.

 

There are 5 inquests due to open on 4 June, at that coroner’s court, so if this death is anything other that routine, it will be adjourned to later for a full hearing.

no..not quite correct!  In a lot of Natural Causes Deaths, Coroners clearly state the Cause of Death is not known particularly where there is no evidence of wounds, marks, scrapes, fractures, bruising to the body or internal organs and bleeding in the brain etc.

The Coroner can't say heart failure, particularly if the heart muscle is healthy and no signs of previous Ischaemia or Atherosclerosis not greater than 70%. (If the family presents evidence of Medical History outlining treatment received, this may pursuade him/her to make a finding.

The Coroner opens the inquest the moment he signs the Order for Post Mortem, he then adjourns the Inquest immediately awaiting the Pathologist's Report and Police witness statements. If the Coroner finds further compelling evidence he will send the case back to UK's CID for further investigation, as i have already mentioned.

Edited June 1 by tandor

[Georgealbert]

51 minutes ago, tandor said:

no..not quite correct!  In a lot of Natural Causes Deaths, Coroners clearly state the Cause of Death is not known particularly where there is no evidence of wounds, marks, scrapes, fractures, bruising to the body or internal organs and bleeding in the brain etc.

The Coroner can't say heart failure, particularly if the heart muscle is healthy and no signs of previous Ischaemia or Atherosclerosis not greater than 70%. (If the family presents evidence of Medical History outlining treatment received, this may pursuade him/her to make a finding.

The Coroner opens the inquest the moment he signs the Order for Post Mortem, he then adjourns the Inquest immediately awaiting the Pathologist's Report and Police witness statements. If the Coroner finds further compelling evidence he will send the case back to UK's CID for further investigation, as i have already mentioned.

Not disagreeing with your post, but remember in the UK about half of all deaths are not reported to the Coroner at all, because a doctor is able to provide a Medical Certificate of Cause of Death.

 

There are rules governing when a doctor may do this and these rules are in place to safeguard patients and ensure that death reporting is accurate and standardised.

 

If there is no doctor available who can issue this medical certificate of cause of death, then the death must be reported to the Coroner.

 

There are also several other types of death that must always be reported to the coroner.

• Deaths that may be linked to medical treatment, surgery or anaesthetic
• Deaths that may be linked to an accident.
• Deaths that may be linked to drugs or medications.
• Possibility of suicide
• If there are any suspicious circumstances or history of violence
• Deaths that may be linked to the person's occupation.

Reports are made by the hospital/doctor and the police and presented to the coroner who will review the information and decide what should be done. 
 

If there is anything out of usual with this death the inquest will be adjourned or if the coroner is satisfied with the presented evidence, will issue a conclusion.

 

Yes it can be referred to the police if the conclusion is unlawfully death, or an open conclusion with suspicion of illegal actions.

Edited June 2 by Georgealbert

[tandor]

6 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Not disagreeing with your post, but remember in the UK about half of all deaths are not reported to the Coroner at all, because a doctor is able to provide a Medical Certificate of Cause of Death.

 

There are rules governing when a doctor may do this and these rules are in place to safeguard patients and ensure that death reporting is accurate and standardised.

 

If there is no doctor available who can issue this medical certificate of cause of death, then the death must be reported to the Coroner.

 

There are also several other types of death that must always be reported to the coroner.

• Deaths that may be linked to medical treatment, surgery or anaesthetic
• Deaths that may be linked to an accident.
• Deaths that may be linked to drugs or medications.
• Possibility of suicide
• If there are any suspicious circumstances or history of violence
• Deaths that may be linked to the person's occupation.

Reports are made by the hospital/doctor and the police and presented to the coroner who will review the information and decide what should be done. 
 

If there is anything out of usual with this death the inquest will be adjourned or if the coroner is satisfied with the presented evidence, will issue a conclusion.

 

Yes it can be referred to the police if the conclusion is unlawfully death, or an open conclusion with suspicion of illegal actions.

save your breath..this was my forte..law enforcement and Forensic Pathology Technician.

[Sheryl]

Google search turns up Daily Mail report on the death which differs significantly e.g:

- reported to have occurred in Koh Chang not Bangkok

- only she died not her boyftiend

- found dead in hotel pool, not her room

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Google search turns up Daily Mail report on the death which differs significantly e.g:

- reported to have occurred in Koh Chang not Bangkok

- only she died not her boyftiend

- found dead in hotel pool, not her room

Poor reporting and a rehash article from the Daily Mail in the comments section majority of comments are 9 years old 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/18/rachel-turner-brown-thailand-koh-chang-swimming-pool-hotel

[BobBKK]

19 hours ago, tandor said:

well, if the family can get a Court Order preventing the Autopsy which has happened due to Religious persuasions...case by case.

 I know a girl here who was very likely to have been murdered, and the family said no to an autopsy, and the Police said "ok," and they put it down as a suicide. I asked WHY?  the answer was simple - the family did not have the money to pay the Police.

[Georgealbert]

1 hour ago, tandor said:

save your breath..this was my forte..law enforcement and Forensic Pathology Technician.

Yes, not disagreeing, but UK regulations changed in 2019. I was posting directly from Chief Coroner Guidance No31 Death Referrals and Medical Examiners.

 

This guidance was issued after The Notifications of Death Regulations 2019, came into force on 1 October 2019.

 

For reference I have attached the guidance.

 

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Guidance-No.-31-Death-Referrals-and-Medical-Examiners.pdf

[Georgealbert]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Google search turns up Daily Mail report on the death which differs significantly e.g:

- reported to have occurred in Koh Chang not Bangkok

- only she died not her boyftiend

- found dead in hotel pool, not her room

Sorry, but I think you are looking at a Daily Mail report that is from 2015 and the lady has a similar but different name, Rachael Turner.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3086041/British-woman-died-pool-holiday-lifetime-partner.html

[Georgealbert]

33 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Poor reporting and a rehash article from the Daily Mail in the comments section majority of comments are 9 years old 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/18/rachel-turner-brown-thailand-koh-chang-swimming-pool-hotel

The report is 9 years old, different incident, just the two ladies had the same surname, Turner.

[Sheryl]

3 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

The report is 9 years old, different incident, just the two ladies had the same surname, Turner.

Yes I see you are right. My apologies.

 

In that case I do nto find, in  English, any media reports of the original death.

[Georgealbert]

7 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Yes I see you are right. My apologies.

 

In that case I do nto find, in  English, any media reports of the original death.

I also have not been able to find anything either in the Thai media or UK national media. All the reports seem to be taken from an article, from a local media source, in Sussex.

 

https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/news/people/bexhill-mums-tribute-to-daughter-36-found-dead-in-bangkok-hotel-room-4647343

[tandor]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

 I know a girl here who was very likely to have been murdered, and the family said no to an autopsy, and the Police said "ok," and they put it down as a suicide. I asked WHY?  the answer was simple - the family did not have the money to pay the Police.

..it happened with EmmCyanide..at least 12 cases were never even 'remotely' investigated and only ONE had samples taken..thank Buddha that one victim survived..the previous Forensic Science Director (Khunying Porntip) battled with corrupt senior officials right up until she retired.

[tandor]

1 hour ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes, not disagreeing, but UK regulations changed in 2019. I was posting directly from Chief Coroner Guidance No31 Death Referrals and Medical Examiners.

 

This guidance was issued after The Notifications of Death Regulations 2019, came into force on 1 October 2019.

 

For reference I have attached the guidance.

 

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Guidance-No.-31-Death-Referrals-and-Medical-Examiners.pdf

thankyou.

 

[john donson]

rest in peace

 

professional holiday person, must have been rich to be able to not work for years, only fun and travel

[BobBKK]

21 hours ago, tandor said:

..it happened with EmmCyanide..at least 12 cases were never even 'remotely' investigated and only ONE had samples taken..thank Buddha that one victim survived..the previous Forensic Science Director (Khunying Porntip) battled with corrupt senior officials right up until she retired.

 

21 hours ago, tandor said:

..it happened with EmmCyanide..at least 12 cases were never even 'remotely' investigated and only ONE had samples taken..thank Buddha that one victim survived..the previous Forensic Science Director (Khunying Porntip) battled with corrupt senior officials right up until she retired.

Then she turned into a far-right nationalist unelected senator who supports 112 and hates MFP - but that's beside the point. Some have assumed here that autopsies often happen in unexplained cases - often, they do not.

Edited June 3 by BobBKK

[Liverpool Lou]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:41 AM, ChaiyaTH said:

but is there seriously like the danger here to be in a room, where it just kills 2 people instantly

"...is there seriously like the danger here..."

Seriously, where like was it like reported that like they both like "died instantly"?

[Liverpool Lou]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:01 PM, tandor said:

then the matter will be referred to UK CID for further investigation which may bring them to Bangkok to follow up on.

No, it won't, the UK police have no jurisdiction to conduct investigations in other countries.

[Liverpool Lou]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:16 PM, Georgealbert said:

The UK police would only get involved if the inquest conclusion, is unlawful death, which seems to me, to be  unlikely, given the lack of any previous information or media coverage about these deaths.

The UK police will not get involved in any investigation in Thailand, that is the sole responsibility of the RTP.

[Georgealbert]

31 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

The UK police will not get involved in any investigation in Thailand, that is the sole responsibility of the RTP.

@tandor will give a more in-depth answer than me, as this was his field of work in the UK, “law enforcement and Forensic Pathology Technician”, and his knowledge is better than my previous training and interaction with the coroner and inquests.

 

My view, is that in cases of murder or manslaughter abroad, what the family is hoping to achieve from the Coroner’s inquest is a conclusion of “Unlawful killing” , which can then sometimes trigger further action by the Police. Additionally, a Coroner’s inquest may bring to light new evidence. 
 

Yes the UK have no jurisdiction in Thailand, but that does not stop them passing on any new evidence/information and requesting that the Thai Police further investigate or re-open a case. This has happened before, with the highest profile case being when UK police joined an investigation into the murder of two backpackers on Koh Tao.

 

https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/asia/british-police-join-thai-investigation-koh-tao-murders.html

 

Thailand also has the 1992 International Criminal Cooperation Act as a framework for conducting international criminal cooperation between Thailand and other countries. This Act designates the Office of the Attorney General as the central coordinating agency, with the authority to consider requests for and provide criminal cooperation between Thailand and other nations. Thailand has agreements or Mutual Legal Assistance Treaties (MLATs) with seven countries: the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, France, Norway, the Republic of Korea, and the People's Republic of China.

Edited June 3 by Georgealbert