Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[Andre0720]

On 6/9/2024 at 4:56 AM, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

Thanks, Great post.

When I read on this subject before, I thought: 'Let's wait and see'.

But now this describes the situation based on what I would express it: 'expert knowledge' about Thailand, its culture, and its ways of life, and its governance systems.

 

So well described, that some 60 members have expressed support and agreement and more.

 

In the final analysis, I would worry more about the 5 members who felt confused about this post, than finding out that I must pay income taxes to this government. 😊

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Joedoebarinio said:

That’s let the cat of the bag. Immagration will take this on, 

I'm certainly NOT stating that immigration will be calculating and collecting these tax/s. 

 

What I am stating is one MAY have to produce a TRD document at extension time to immigration BEFORE an extension is issued. 

 

This makes foreigners have to approach the TRD, so no chasing foreigners involved, where, in my opinion, "something" will have to be paid, legit, or otherwise, or both, for their document.  In order to get their document, one may have to produce a bank document showing total deposits for a calendar year, just in the same way one must produce a bank document for their 800k. 

 

Who knows what the Thai government is going to do, but I'm not one of the members that believes it will be all too hard and the Thai government will forget about it.  There's just too much easy money involved, both legit, and black money. 

 

I have given the Certificate of Residence example of how it MAY work for most, and for high net worth individuals, the TRD will apply the letter of the law to tax some serious money.

[KhunHeineken]

17 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

I thought: 'Let's wait and see'.

That approach may depend on how much money you could lose in tax. 

 

If you stand to lose a considerable amount of money, the deadline is the 27th June 2024 for the 2024 calendar year, otherwise, you get caught in the Thai tax residency net. 

 

Everyone has different circumstances. 

[Lorry]

11 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Plan B is 6 months in Vietnam each year

That would make you a tax resident in Vietnam.

Vietnam taxes global income

[soi3eddie]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:09 AM, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

 

Visa/Tax agents will be salivating at the endless opportunities to increase their own wealth.

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

That would make you a tax resident in Vietnam.

Vietnam taxes global income

To be a tax resident of Vietnam you need to spend 183 days in a calendar year inside of Vietnam. 

 

Just one of some links from a Google search.

 

https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/doing-business-guide/vietnam/taxation-and-accounting/individual-income-tax#:~:text=A tax resident is defined,from the date of arrival.

 

"A tax resident is defined as someone residing in Vietnam for 183 days or more in either the calendar year or a period of 12 consecutive months from the date of arrival."

 

This was also interesting in the same link.

 

"Non-resident taxpayers are subject to PIT at a flat rate of twenty percent (20%) on their Vietnam-sourced income."  Obviously, I would not have, nor do I want to or need to, have any "Vietnam sourced income." 

 

I go to the Singapore F1 every year, so maybe I'll extend a day or two days so I am not a tax resident of Thailand, or a tax resident of Vietnam. 

 

I would be on 2 x 3 month tourist visas for Vietnam, using an ATM, and not staying over 183 days.  I don't see any problems in the near to medium future for taxation in Vietnam. 

 

On the other hand, Thailand presents an imminent taxation concern. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Visa/Tax agents will be salivating at the endless opportunities to increase their own wealth.

 

So will the bosses at the TRD, in the same way the bosses at immigration are obscenely wealthy. 

 

The TRD just want to put their snouts in the trough in the same way as immigration. 

[Lorry]

7 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I go to the Singapore F1 every year, so maybe I'll extend a day or two days so I am not a tax resident of Thailand, or a tax resident of Vietnam. 

Seems to me like a good solution. 

 

Someone who does this may still have to handle the taxes of his home country (depends on his circumstances, Americans for instance) but they are probably easier to handle than different Asian jurisdictions, and the "known unknown" of Thai taxes.

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

Seems to me like a good solution. 

 

Someone who does this may still have to handle the taxes of his home country (depends on his circumstances, Americans for instance) but they are probably easier to handle than different Asian jurisdictions, and the "known unknown" of Thai taxes.

Surely it would cost you more than paying the tax?

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Surely it would cost you more than paying the tax?

It depends. 

Some poster in some of the many tax threads did a calculation, and for him, it is worth it.

Many snowbirds will just go home after 179 days instead staying a couple of weeks more. Doesn't cost them anything.

[wmlc]

On 6/11/2024 at 2:00 PM, KhunHeineken said:

How do you think it will happen, with a particular focus on possible compliance / enforcement, or do you think it will be repealed and just go away? 

 

I've put forward some ideas how I think the Thai government MAY try to get this to work, efficiently, or otherwise. 

 

Happy to listen to others about what they think will happen.  

They don't have the people or systems in place to make it work. Further, the budget as well. I think something will get passed maybe but it will never become law because the senate will reject it. Why? Because implementation and organization. I will go you one better, they will just approve the law with no enforcement regulations like they did with the Jan 2024 law. Then everyone will just carry on as they normally did prior to the law being passed. I can only go on the info and experience I had prior to all this and that's what I predict will happen. However, who knows. Maybe the new generation of Thais can make these things work. 

[topt]

2 hours ago, wmlc said:

I will go you one better, they will just approve the law with no enforcement regulations like they did with the Jan 2024 law.

Since people who are affected won't have to theoretically file for anything to do with this year until Jan 1st 2025 what kind of enforcement are you expecting to have happened already......?

 

Also that wasn't a change in the law.......

 

But for those somewhat major inconsistencies I may have been nodding along to what you were saying 

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, Lorry said:

Seems to me like a good solution. 

 

Someone who does this may still have to handle the taxes of his home country (depends on his circumstances, Americans for instance) but they are probably easier to handle than different Asian jurisdictions, and the "known unknown" of Thai taxes.

Yes, I still have to pay tax in Australia. 

 

Currently, I benefit from a tax free threshold there, and resident for tax purposes tax brackets, but even that may change in the near future as Australia has proposed to changes to move to a 183 days inside / outside Australia to deem your tax residency. 

 

In the years to come, the only place to hide from the tax man will be behind crypto.  

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, Expat68 said:

Surely it would cost you more than paying the tax?

Depends on how much you remit to Thailand and one's global wealth.

 

I have a friend in my condo block.  He has similar personal circumstances to myself, and also doesn't mind Vietnam.  We are both going to hang around Thailand until 2025 and go through this mess the first time. 

 

We will pay what we have to pay, despite us both already minimizing our remittances to Thailand.  If the Thai tax bill is to the point that we both think Thailand is ripping us off, we are looking at choosing either his or my condo to keep, and renting a condo in Vietnam, most likely Danang, and when he is in Thailand, I am in Vietnam, and when I am in Thailand, he is in Vietnam.

 

We will both just bounce between Thailand and Vietnam, being a tax resident of neither.   

 

His bike is a newer model, so I will sell mine.  My home entertainment center is better than his, so he sells his.  We will go halves in a motorbike and extras for a condo in Danang.  We pay the rent for the respective condo's when we are residing in them. 

 

Coincidentally, I like F1, he likes MotoGP.  He always goes to the Buriram race, but will just go to the Malaysian GP instead to cover those few days that overlap in tax residency.  We both agree a change of scenery every 6 months is great.  We might try it for a calendar year in both countries and see how it works out. 

 

Basically, we split / share the costs of becoming non residents for tax purposes in either country. 

 

Well see what happens next year. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Lorry said:

It depends. 

Some poster in some of the many tax threads did a calculation, and for him, it is worth it.

Many snowbirds will just go home after 179 days instead staying a couple of weeks more. Doesn't cost them anything.

Yes, everyone has different personal and financial circumstances. 

 

I just replied to the member with something myself and a friend are considering for 2025. 

 

If the Thai tax is at a level where one feels Thailand no long represents value for money over 12 months, or, one simply can't afford their Thai tax bill without a significant impact on lifestyle, then the decision to relieve themselves of their Thai tax bill is a no brainer. 

 

For some, their tax bill will make the decision for them, either financially, or based on principle.  We must remember, foreigners are not getting anything in return for paying this extra money just for being here. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, wmlc said:

They don't have the people or systems in place to make it work.

They do have computers though. 

 

Immigration know you are an overstay.  The TRD will know you haven't paid your tax.  Same Same. 

 

4 hours ago, wmlc said:

I can only go on the info and experience I had prior to all this and that's what I predict will happen.

Fair enough.  You are entitled to your opinion, and thanks for posting it.  I happen to disagree, but we will all get to see what happens early 2025. 

 

4 hours ago, wmlc said:

However, who knows.

Correct, and this is what these threads are all about.  An exchange of ideas, opinions, predictions, facts etc etc. 

 

I have always said, anything is possible in Thailand, at anytime. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Since people who are affected won't have to theoretically file for anything to do with this year until Jan 1st 2025 what kind of enforcement are you expecting to have happened already......?

I have said before the Thai's must have something up their sleeve by way of enforcement, which they haven't revealed yet.  There's just too much money involved, either legit, or otherwise, for them to just walk away from this one. 

[topt]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have said before the Thai's must have something up their sleeve by way of enforcement, which they haven't revealed yet.  There's just too much money involved, either legit, or otherwise, for them to just walk away from this one. 

Possibly - but a completely irrelevant reply to the question I posed to someone else.......

[Expat68]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, I still have to pay tax in Australia. 

 

Currently, I benefit from a tax free threshold there, and resident for tax purposes tax brackets, but even that may change in the near future as Australia has proposed to changes to move to a 183 days inside / outside Australia to deem your tax residency. 

 

In the years to come, the only place to hide from the tax man will be behind crypto.  

Would recommend people having at least 10% in gold

[Presnock]

On 6/11/2024 at 9:36 AM, Guderian said:

 Yes, indeed, the financial calculation is simple enough, but the personal cost of the upheaval is down to each individual to decide. When they were only talking about taxing remittances to Thailand it was a no-brainer for me, stay put and cough up whatever small tax they may decide I owed, if any. Taxing my worldwide income, though, most of which is offshore and tax-free at source, is another matter altogether. I'm not really interested in spending my retirement filling in tax returns and paying accountants and juggling my affairs to minimise my tax liability, I haven't done so for the last 20 years and see no reason to start now. The cheapest option would be to spend 5 months of the year in Cambodia or Malaysia. I could drive the car there and use it, which would save money over renting a vehicle, and then rent a house, which would be the only real additional cost over staying put in Thailand, as you have to eat and drink and use electricity wherever you are. Say the local equivalent of 30K THB/month, or 150K THB for each annual visit. The TRD doesn't have to come up with a particularly onerous tax bill to make the migration worthwhile, and then it's down to our own subjective estimate of the personal cost of the inconvenience.

That is for every expat here, one of the options is to stay and pay (maybe), rotate in other countries for just over 6 months a year, totally abandon LOS.  BUT until there is that new law and how it really will affect us, we are all upset possibly until something does come to pass.  We laugh at the possible plans of the Thai govt being shot down, changed, or whatever yet we seem to go bonkers at there every whim.

[Presnock]

On 6/11/2024 at 9:58 AM, patman30 said:

 

pretty sure not everyone is the same
Many Thais who work abroad do so illegally,
so YES they are not tax residents in the country they are working
so no tax is paid on their earnings
Thai gov wants a slice of that action.
 

the new OECD program of July 2023 was signed by 138 countries...I think many other countries want their slice of the action too.  Some plan to move to other lands but that country too may be changing already or planning to change their tax base too.

[Presnock]

On 6/12/2024 at 1:34 AM, soi3eddie said:

 

Visa/Tax agents will be salivating at the endless opportunities to increase their own wealth.

 

I blv the agents and tax expert agencies are chomping at the bit due to the comments on this forum before WE even know what will and when it will happen if anything new at all.

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

That is for every expat here, one of the options is to stay and pay (maybe), rotate in other countries for just over 6 months a year, totally abandon LOS.  BUT until there is that new law and how it really will affect us, we are all upset possibly until something does come to pass.  We laugh at the possible plans of the Thai govt being shot down, changed, or whatever yet we seem to go bonkers at there every whim.

Could you not go out of the country for a couple of weeks before the 180 days each time? Although I live in Thailand I am domiciled in the UK, having still got property there

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Could you not go out of the country for a couple of weeks before the 180 days each time? Although I live in Thailand I am domiciled in the UK, having still got property there

that was one of the choices  by rotate, I meant leave a country prior to becoming a tax resident.  Having a career in which I was required to move residence regularly, I tired of that and once I decided to retire, I have stayed put in a place that I really enjoy still.  I have spent a total of over 30 years in Thailand first in early 70's, several BKK tours of duty, retired 20 years.  I could live in the US but it would have to be in a special place as much of my home country would not suit me either for weather or local citizens and local taxes.  I can't escape the fed taxes but all the rest by staying I can avoid all but in some places of the US I could escape some of the local taxes too.  Once the Thai govt advises us on EXACTLY everything new/different in whatever program they eventually settle on, then I might have to change my mind about living here but really don't anticipate that happening in this lifetime.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, Expat68 said:

Would recommend people having at least 10% in gold

Well, as for gold/and or crypto - eventually if any govt learns a way to reap some kind of tax benefit from those, rest assured it will in my opinion change a country's taxes.  Ben Franklin, one of the signers of the US Constitution in 1787, is famous also for his comment in 1789 quoting an existing sentiment : "nothing in life is certain except death and taxes!".  Taxation without representation was a quote by rebels in connection with the King of England taxes on its colony now known as the US of A.  Governments love TAXES and can always control the laws surrounding the levy of and amount on any commodity they desire.  In some countries that might make the citizens replace the govt.  Here in Thailand, unless the government can levy and collect all taxable funds from its own citizens tax laws might target some easier groups like expats who stay here totally at the whim of the government.

 

[patman30]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

the new OECD program of July 2023 was signed by 138 countries...I think many other countries want their slice of the action too.  Some plan to move to other lands but that country too may be changing already or planning to change their tax base too.

yes, all in preparation for BRICS/CBDCs

[Presnock]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:57 PM, Andre0720 said:

Thanks, Great post.

When I read on this subject before, I thought: 'Let's wait and see'.

But now this describes the situation based on what I would express it: 'expert knowledge' about Thailand, its culture, and its ways of life, and its governance systems.

 

So well described, that some 60 members have expressed support and agreement and more.

 

In the final analysis, I would worry more about the 5 members who felt confused about this post, than finding out that I must pay income taxes to this government. 😊

Well, real experts on Thailand know for sure that the expression TIT means that nothing is certain and anything certain could change immediately or the governing bodies could change immediately followed by a change to ANY situation.  I first lived in Thailand in the early 70's and have seen numerous changes on just about everything except the changes.  My take anyway.

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:06 PM, Expat68 said:

Would recommend people having at least 10% in gold

Unless you trade small pieces of the gold for goods and services, how does it get you around the tax man? 

[Expat68]

46 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Unless you trade small pieces of the gold for goods and services, how does it get you around the tax man? 

Sorry should have said 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

Sorry should have said 

What you describe already exists in the US. 

 

https://www.goldback.com

 

https://www.govmint.com/gold/goldbacks#:~:text=Where Are Goldbacks Accepted%3F,are considered voluntary local currency.

 

"The Goldback is designed to be a local currency within certain regions where a series exists, that being Utah, Nevada, New Hampshire, Wyoming, and now South Dakota. They are considered voluntary local currency."