Selling stocks owned prior to 2024 and remit it to Thailand still tax free?

[Eudaimonia]

I would think shares are pre-2024 "savings" worth their purchase value. Usually, capital gains are taxed when assets are sold, and the profit is calculated from the original purchase price. TRD is not planning to tax unrealized capital gains; they follow the standard system. Establishing an artificial valuation point on 1 January 2024 just to allow tax-free capital gains would be strange.

 

Even on this forum, it was advised that people should consider selling and repurchasing their investments before the end of December 2023 to establish a new cost basis for their holdings.

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Reading through both links, foreign-based income is taxable when remitted to Thailand. Income earned prior to 2024 is not.

 

Savings prior to 2024 are not taxable when remitted to Thailand. It seems no reporting of such remittances is necessary.

 

Where it gets fuzzy is the definition of savings. I could not find a question which specifically asked the status of shares, peer-to-peer lending accounts, or term deposits in terms of whether they are regarded as savings, or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I gave you those links because they are just two of the many different sources of information that we have found over the past six months which when combined, create a picture of what the TRD rules are. You asked me to post the TRD rules confirming something or other, that's not the way this game is being played. It's being played by joining together various Q&A's, video interviews with embassy and TRD staff, articles by Big 4 consultants, dissemination of court cases and legal opinions written in Thai and also first hand information from visits to the TRD by members. The latter however is unreliable because such visits reflect only one persons opinion at a time, from a single office, by a single TRD officer and is highly likely to change based on the office and the TRD attendees, we've seen that repeatedly. Infamously, we have seen minutes of a meeting between a Dutch taxpayer in Hua Hin and several senior TRD officers, including a TRD lawyer, where the things that were said, contradict much of what had been learned p[reviously and opened up more new issues than it closed. That is the nature of what we are attempting to unravel here. 

[koolkarl]

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Thailand operates a remittance based tax system, end of story. No country can change their tax system mid year and make it retroactive. You are spreading false rumours and distorting fact, both against forum rules.

My $100,000 USD bet still stands.  And you never explained the purpose of CRS.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

My $100,000 USD bet still stands.  And you never explained the purpose of CRS.

I have no time or interest in your stupidity, congratulations on being the very first member to make it all the way to my ignore list.

[koolkarl]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I have no time or interest in your stupidity, congratulations on being the very first member to make it all the way to my ignore list.

I happen to be a CPA.  And you?

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I gave you those links because they are just two of the many different sources of information that we have found over the past six months which when combined, create a picture of what the TRD rules are. You asked me to post the TRD rules confirming something or other, that's not the way this game is being played. It's being played by joining together various Q&A's, video interviews with embassy and TRD staff, articles by Big 4 consultants, dissemination of court cases and legal opinions written in Thai and also first hand information from visits to the TRD by members. The latter however is unreliable because such visits reflect only one persons opinion at a time, from a single office, by a single TRD officer and is highly likely to change based on the office and the TRD attendees, we've seen that repeatedly. Infamously, we have seen minutes of a meeting between a Dutch taxpayer in Hua Hin and several senior TRD officers, including a TRD lawyer, where the things that were said, contradict much of what had been learned p[reviously and opened up more new issues than it closed. That is the nature of what we are attempting to unravel here. 

Your work on this thread is appreciated.

 

IMO the most significant phrase in your post is " highly likely to change based on the office and the TRD attendees"

 

I other words, a mirror image of Immigration.

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Your work on this thread is appreciated.

 

IMO the most significant phrase in your post is " highly likely to change based on the office and the TRD attendees"

 

I other words, a mirror image of Immigration.

Exactly that, and the banks and many other entities in Thailand also. The closer you can get to the source of the original message, eg Bangkok, the more likely it is you'll get the true story. In the North we have a 50/50 chance, Issan folks have no hope.

[JimGant]

15 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Where it gets fuzzy is the definition of savings. I could not find a question which specifically asked the status of shares, peer-to-peer lending accounts, or term deposits in terms of whether they are regarded as savings, or not.

Of course they're savings, regardless of how they're dressed up.  The headliner on this thread says:

Quote

Posts made by individuals reflect their own opinions and should not be taken as fact.

 

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, koolkarl said:

I happen to be a CPA.  And you?

Take a deep breath, and seek professional help. You're giving our profession a bad name.

[koolkarl]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Take a deep breath, and seek professional help. You're giving our profession a bad name.

You can tell my private bank the same. 

[charliebadenhop]

On 6/20/2024 at 3:17 PM, Mike Lister said:

You have to tell them and if you lie and they check, you get to go to the big house for a few years, vaseline not included.

Hi Mike,

How will the Thai govt. possibly check? They do not know everywhere I keep my money, and other governments are not going to give them a free look around in their banking system..... Going to jail for exaggerating will not land anyone in a jail cell... and again, they have no clear path for investigating. 

And because of this I continue to wonder how and why people keep brining up numerous possible scenarios. 

 

Please do not hesitate to correct my thinking!

 

Cheers,

Charlie

 

[charliebadenhop]

Why oh why is my question being ignored?!

 

How will the Thai govt. ever be able to get all of the info they need to determine whether the money someone brings into Thailand is savings, or recent profit, or....???

 

 

[topt]

35 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

Why oh why is my question being ignored?!

 

How will the Thai govt. ever be able to get all of the info they need to determine whether the money someone brings into Thailand is savings, or recent profit, or....???

 

 

If they call you in for a chat and ask you for proof of what you say you will need to show some sort of "paperwork" trail to prove your claims............

Then they either accept that or dont - no one can really say as TIT and every situation can be different......

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, charliebadenhop said:

Why oh why is my question being ignored?!

 

How will the Thai govt. ever be able to get all of the info they need to determine whether the money someone brings into Thailand is savings, or recent profit, or....???

 

 

Your question was answered already, "You have to tell them and if you lie and they check".  YOU are going to give them the information they ask for.....please don't now ask how you will get that information, it's the paperwork that supports all the transactions that lead up to you have money in your accounts that is then transferred.

[ballpoint]

7 hours ago, charliebadenhop said:

Why oh why is my question being ignored?!

 

How will the Thai govt. ever be able to get all of the info they need to determine whether the money someone brings into Thailand is savings, or recent profit, or....???

 

 

 

The burden of proof is upon you.  Granted, the chances of being called in for a chat may be slim, and I am not going to speculate as to what method they will use to determine who to call in, but once they do decide, they can make life very difficult for you.  For example, they will flag your passport so every immigration officer who enters it into their system will be advised, leading to delays with 90 day reports and extensions of stay and, more importantly, being unable to leave the country until it is cleared. 

 

You will be required to account for every deposit made into your Thai bank account(s), both domestic and foreign sourced.  Statements from all foreign accounts used to send remittances will be demanded, previously going back to the beginning of the year you were being audited for, but now likely going back to Jan 1st 2024.  I have no idea what the penalty will be for not providing this paperwork, but they could very well then decide to treat all remittances, regardless of source, as taxable income and tax you accordingly - along with a fine.  They certainly won't clear the flag on your passport until they are satisfied.  In my case, even though I was able to supply all documentation proving I was following the law, and so passed the audit with no taxes or fine to pay, I still needed to visit the immigration detention centre in Soi Suan Plu Bangkok to get the immigration computer flag finally removed so that I could make a family trip overseas.

[charliebadenhop]

Thanks "Ballpoint". 

 

So I send 60k from my Wise account to my account here. I am happy to show them my Wise account.... then what? They want to know where the money came from in the first place? And I say- My savings account.... and then they ask to see that account? Ok.... so what will happen then? Obviously I had at least 60k in my savings account.... What am I missing here? How do I wind up with a problem?

 

[charliebadenhop]

21 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Your question was answered already, "You have to tell them and if you lie and they check".  YOU are going to give them the information they ask for.....please don't now ask how you will get that information, it's the paperwork that supports all the transactions that lead up to you have money in your accounts that is then transferred.

Sorry, but I still do not understand.... and maybe I already gave my answer in the reply I just made to "ballpoint". Of course, if I send money, I will do it from an account I have set up for this purpose. Can they really say- You must have had the money you sent to Thailand, in a foreign bank account, prior to 2024, and you must show us the bank records for this account?

 

If you had the money, but not in the bank.... then what? You will not be allowed to say the money was kept in a safe in your home?

And what about getting gifts from family members? Gifts will be taxed as income? 

 

Are you sure they have the legal right to force people to show records of their foreign bank accounts? Somehow I doubt this... but I can be wrong of course. 

 

And they can get away with saying- You haven't been able to prove to us that you had this money prior to 2024, so we are going to tax it as income??? 

 

Will every foreign resident in Thailand have no right of privacy?

Or maybe that is already the case but I just don't know it! 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

Sorry, but I still do not understand.... and maybe I already gave my answer in the reply I just made to "ballpoint". Of course, if I send money, I will do it from an account I have set up for this purpose. Can they really say- You must have had the money you sent to Thailand, in a foreign bank account, prior to 2024, and you must show us the bank records for this account?

 

If you had the money, but not in the bank.... then what? You will not be allowed to say the money was kept in a safe in your home?

And what about getting gifts from family members? Gifts will be taxed as income? 

 

Are you sure they have the legal right to force people to show records of their foreign bank accounts? Somehow I doubt this... but I can be wrong of course. 

 

And they can get away with saying- You haven't been able to prove to us that you had this money prior to 2024, so we are going to tax it as income??? 

 

Will every foreign resident in Thailand have no right of privacy?

Or maybe that is already the case but I just don't know it! 

Calm down and read the answers you've already been given, slowly. You have to say what the funds are and if asked later, be able to prove it, that's all, no Spanish Inquisition et al.

[charliebadenhop]

Wow.... I have been feeling calm.

I send 60k to Thailand and I say the money comes from savings....

 

No way for the government to know where the funds actually come from....

So, you are suggesting they can MAKE me show one or more year's of bank statements to prove I had the money prior to 2024? This is doubtful in my mind....

 

And they will not accept that the money was in a safe at home?

Really?

Is that legally possible?

I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

Wow.... I have been feeling calm.

I send 60k to Thailand and I say the money comes from savings....

 

No way for the government to know where the funds actually come from....

So, you are suggesting they can MAKE me show one or more year's of bank statements to prove I had the money prior to 2024? This is doubtful in my mind....

 

And they will not accept that the money was in a safe at home?

Really?

Is that legally possible?

I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

Up to you

[JackGats]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:07 PM, Mike Lister said:

By using your savings to buy a capital asset, your savings are no longer savings, worse still, your asset is now subject of a capital gain.

 

No, you cannot deduct the original cost of the asset and remit that to Thailand tax free. Any remittance of that asset would be viewed as a mix of capital and gain, until the entire amount was transferred. If you make that transfer in a year when you are not Thai tax resident, there is a good chance the gain will be free of tax. To be 100% safe, the capital gain should also be realised in a year when you are not tax resident in Thailand. All of that is under current rules, if the rules change to worldwide income, the timing of the CG and the remittance, becomes irrelevant.

So under the present rules (assuming they don't change) you could do the following:

 

1) stay one year <180 days

2) during that same year, remit a big sum that will last you for years (preferably investing some of that big sum in Thai stocks rather than leave it dormant in a current account)

3) live exclusively off the above liquidities and refrain from any remittance while staying >180 days for years

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, charliebadenhop said:

Wow.... I have been feeling calm.

I send 60k to Thailand and I say the money comes from savings....

 

No way for the government to know where the funds actually come from....

So, you are suggesting they can MAKE me show one or more year's of bank statements to prove I had the money prior to 2024? This is doubtful in my mind....

 

And they will not accept that the money was in a safe at home?

Really?

Is that legally possible?

I doubt it.

 

 

 

 

Let me try to see if I can make you understand, one last time.

 

When you file a tax return, in your home country, you declare the income that you have or in other words, you self assess and self declare. If might be that your home government tax department already knows about some of that income and mentions it in passing, just to jog your memory and help you along! 

 

After your home country tax department receives your tax return they look at it and decide if they think it's complete or whether, perhaps, because they have other information from some source, that perhaps you've been less than truthful. If they think you've been telling porkies, they may write or call and ask for proof of what you have said, if you left something out they may tell you about it. If you are able to prove everything to their satisfaction, you get a big hug and a thank you. If however you are not able to prove things they can start to get ugly. Does that pretty much sum up the way things go back home?

 

Good, because that's exactly how it goes down here as well.

 

 

 

 

[charliebadenhop]

Thank you for taking your time and energy Mike! Very much appreciated....

 

I am a US citizen who lived in Japan for 30 years before coming here.....

I have not filed a US tax return for about 35 years.... Once I got settled in Japan and was paying income tax in Japan, and I was under the threshold for also paying tax in the US... after filing two or three US tax returns showing I was very definitely under the US threshold, my US accountant suggested I just stop filing returns, and the IRS would never come after me, a red flag would not pop up. Turns out he was right!

 

As far as Japan goes... I stopped filing tax returns after I closed my company there about 15 years ago. (I am 76 years old).

 

IF I was investing in stocks, forex, etc. then I would do so after opening an offshore company, and the offshore company would be doing the investing.... Nothing in my name.... IF

Forming an offshore company is a very common tactic used worldwide, to shield individuals from the tax authorities. 

 

I already own property in Thailand, so there isn't any reason for me to send a large sum of money here.... So, if I send 20k here (which would be the maximum), either one of my two non-Thai bank accounts will show that much money in the account, off and on for numerous years.... Off and on.... So not really anything for Thai officials to look at. 

 

If I was wanting to bring over 50K or so to buy a car, if I felt the new tax laws here actually had any real teeth, then I would create a loan document showing I borrowed the money from the ABC corporation. If I had to then bring over another large sum, I would create a second loan. This is a very common workaround for a fair amount of people living here in Thailand.  Problem solved!!  The Thai government will have no way of checking on these loans, or checking on the ABC corporation....

 

Anyway.... if one stays creative, there are many ways to get around the new tax laws without needing to allow the Thai govt. to see exactly what is actually going on in your life. 

 

It is very important to remember- "the Thai govt." actually winds up being some Thai govt. worker sitting in an office somewhere that doesn't have any windows, and this guy has zero ability to check on anything that is going on overseas. Zero!  So, for instance, as I say, I have not filed a tax return anywhere for about 15 years. If I had a need to tell the Thai govt. that, they would not have any way of checking to see if I was telling the truth or not. I would never ever tell the Thai govt. anything that could be proven false. And I would never ever have the need to try and do so. 

 

End of story....

 

Your thoughts Mike?...

Please. 

[charliebadenhop]

Hi Mike,

Waiting to hear back from you, and I am not trying to act like a "know it all". I am only one person, and I have presented my potential workarounds. I am certain that others could present other scenarios.

 

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

Hi Mike,

Waiting to hear back from you, and I am not trying to act like a "know it all". I am only one person, and I have presented my potential workarounds. I am certain that others could present other scenarios.

 

You're asking me to comment on potential tax avoidance and even more potentially tax evasion measures. I have always refused to comment on those things and continue not to do so. There's a huge area of grey between the black and white of avoidance and evasion, most often these discussions end up in the black which is not only against forum rules, it's against the law. Sorry.