A Visit to the Tax Office

[samtam]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

I showed her this simple breakdown, but she said she would need all the statements as supporting documents, if I was going to submit in hard copy. If I submit as e-filed online, she said it might require follow up documents.

 

Oh, and apparently supporting documents, if required, such as bank statements would need to be "certified" by the bank. W T F ?

 

They are going to drown in documentation, digitalised, or hard copy.

[NoDisplayName]

32 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Oh, and apparently supporting documents, if required, such as bank statements would need to be "certified" by the bank. W T F ?

 

They are going to drown in documentation, digitalised, or hard copy.

 

I've done 6 filings now, 1 in person, 5 online.  Only documentation that has been requested has been for Thai bank and dividend withholding statements, and that because I was requesting a refund of withholding tax.   I never, ever claimed any foreign source income, assessable or non-assessable.

 

I gave the TRD lady a list of my remittances (Wise) last July.  She asked if salary or pension, I said savings, she said no need file.  No documentation needed.

 

I can only speak from my 'sperience, that being documentation is needed when requesting a refund, but would suspect supporting documentation for simply claiming assessable income should not be necessary.....only if applying for refund or tax credit.  Maybe she was trying to scare you off?

 

 

[anrcaccount]

3 hours ago, samtam said:

 

I just returned from my local Thai tax office in Silom, (Bangkok).

It seems to me that TRD has not communicated sufficient information to Thailand tax residents, and certainly varied or no information to TRD staff in their various offices, as to how they wish their tax filing to be completed.

 

My “income” in Thailand is only through ATM, debit card, or FPS QR. There is no income earned in Thailand.

 

My Thai assistant had prepared PN90 E-filing form with all required fields completed, showing a zero payment due, after TEDA.

We showed this to the tax officer, who said this was the wrong form, so she then handed us a blank PN90 with exactly the same format, and asked us to complete by hand, accompanied by all supporting documents, (bank statements).

 

Previously we had been in conversation with this office, (and the same officer, I think), and she had asked that we complete an Excel file of all assessable pension and dividends, and she would complete the form.

I had prepared an Excel file of these 2 items, which were only of assessable income (through remittances either by ATM, debit card or FP QR).*

 

Alternatively she also said we could submit the E-filing PND90 online, and await any document clarification that might be called for.

The head of the office seemed completely unwilling to consider or give any advice as to how to proceed. My take is that there seems to be utter bemusement that foreigners are now trying to submit tax filings, and indeed there is a tendency towards hostility, because it will require a lot more paperwork that will not be easy to understand.*

 

Accordingly, I have decided to wait a few weeks until before the 31^st March deadline, or possibly not even file at all, until there is more clarity. I realise not filing may risk a fine (of THB2000?).

 

She said I should scan all the bank statements, for possible future auditing. I have a hard copy, and I have access to them from my online banking for 7 years.*

 

*Composite bank (one bank) statements for me show multiple accounts: securities account, multicurrency, currency of the country in which the foreign bank is situated etc. There is no way this can be easily decipherable, on top of which, a pension figure, or a dividend paid in a foreign bank is not fully drawn upon in any “remittance”, in the methods aforementioned, so reconciliation would be difficult, although achievable with hours of review in person. And for what? To confirm that there is no tax due.

 

I am always willing to comply with what is required. But until how what is required can be easily understood by TRD staff and tax residents, this is a Thai tangle of monumental proportions.

 

Thanks for another real world report showing the TRD have no real interest in actually processing returns for foreigners that include foreign remitted income.

 

IMO, and I think objectively on the balance of common sense,  you'd have been better to do nothing. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, samtam said:

 

I just returned from my local Thai tax office in Silom, (Bangkok).

It seems to me that TRD has not communicated sufficient information to Thailand tax residents, and certainly varied or no information to TRD staff in their various offices, as to how they wish their tax filing to be completed.

 

My “income” in Thailand is only through ATM, debit card, or FPS QR. There is no income earned in Thailand.

 

My Thai assistant had prepared PN90 E-filing form with all required fields completed, showing a zero payment due, after TEDA.

We showed this to the tax officer, who said this was the wrong form, so she then handed us a blank PN90 with exactly the same format, and asked us to complete by hand, accompanied by all supporting documents, (bank statements).

 

Previously we had been in conversation with this office, (and the same officer, I think), and she had asked that we complete an Excel file of all assessable pension and dividends, and she would complete the form.

I had prepared an Excel file of these 2 items, which were only of assessable income (through remittances either by ATM, debit card or FP QR).*

 

Alternatively she also said we could submit the E-filing PND90 online, and await any document clarification that might be called for.

The head of the office seemed completely unwilling to consider or give any advice as to how to proceed. My take is that there seems to be utter bemusement that foreigners are now trying to submit tax filings, and indeed there is a tendency towards hostility, because it will require a lot more paperwork that will not be easy to understand.*

 

Accordingly, I have decided to wait a few weeks until before the 31^st March deadline, or possibly not even file at all, until there is more clarity. I realise not filing may risk a fine (of THB2000?).

 

She said I should scan all the bank statements, for possible future auditing. I have a hard copy, and I have access to them from my online banking for 7 years.*

 

*Composite bank (one bank) statements for me show multiple accounts: securities account, multicurrency, currency of the country in which the foreign bank is situated etc. There is no way this can be easily decipherable, on top of which, a pension figure, or a dividend paid in a foreign bank is not fully drawn upon in any “remittance”, in the methods aforementioned, so reconciliation would be difficult, although achievable with hours of review in person. And for what? To confirm that there is no tax due.

 

I am always willing to comply with what is required. But until how what is required can be easily understood by TRD staff and tax residents, this is a Thai tangle of monumental proportions.

I have said in the past I expect there to be chaos, and the whole implementation of this policy may well become laughable, which it pretty much is now, and we haven't reached the deadline yet.

 

It's interesting that your experience was not the same as a few others.  Some others went to their local TRD office and were simply told no need to file, and they left.     

[samtam]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have said in the past I expect there to be chaos, and the whole implementation of this policy may well become laughable, which it pretty much is now, and we haven't reached the deadline yet.

 

It's interesting that your experience was not the same as a few others.  Some others went to their local TRD office and were simply told no need to file, and they left.     

 

Although not her exact words, "no need to file" was the gist of it. (The conversation was in Thai, so I gleaned this after the meeting.)

[samtam]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Thanks for another real world report showing the TRD have no real interest in actually processing returns for foreigners that include foreign remitted income.

 

IMO, and I think objectively on the balance of common sense,  you'd have been better to do nothing. 

 

 

 

From what I gather, (in a subsequent break down of the actual Thai conversation), the Thai lady thought my UK State Pension was paid in UK, (which it is), and then I transferred it directly to my Thai bank, which I don't. I transfer it to an account in Hong Kong, in GBP, and then convert that to HKD or THB, and not the full amount, because I have a multicurrency account. The reconciliation process which she thinks is going to be straightforward, is going to be far from that. And with 74 such transactions (which are direct "remittances"), they are subdivided, depending on currency transaction. I have a complete record, extrapolated from the composite bank statements. If I provide the bank statements, they will have to have several trails to follow, in order to reach the source. Sure, they can go through that process, but it will take time and effort on both our parts, which I think they do not appreciate.

[samtam]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I never, ever claimed any foreign source income, assessable or non-assessable.

 

That is the only thing I am claiming to be my income. I have zero Thailand income, that hasn't already been taxed (withholding tax), as per below post.

[samtam]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I can only speak from my 'sperience, that being documentation is needed when requesting a refund, but would suspect supporting documentation for simply claiming assessable income should not be necessary.....only if applying for refund or tax credit.  Maybe she was trying to scare you off?

 

The only refund I will claim is for the 15% withholding tax on the previous 3 years on my deposit. Normally I wouldn't bother, but having obtained a TIN, I will. It only amounts to about THB7,000. But hey, ho. Why not?

[samtam]

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

IMO, and I think objectively on the balance of common sense,  you'd have been better to do nothing. 

 

I have in fact done nothing (in terms of filing a tax return). I have spent multiple hours collating information that produces a net zero tax due. I am waiting for more dust (not PM2.5😁) to settle before proceeding.

 

(I have however obtained a TIN, through dint of my pink ID, but it can be used to claim the withholding tax refund.)

[KhunHeineken]

37 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Although not her exact words, "no need to file" was the gist of it. (The conversation was in Thai, so I gleaned this after the meeting.)

There within lay the problem for some members. 

 

Some members may know they actually need to file, but are told otherwise by TRD staff, either due to laziness, incompetence, inexperience, or a combination of all of these.  

 

What is one to do in such a case? 

[samtam]

28 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

There within lay the problem for some members. 

 

Some members may know they actually need to file, but are told otherwise by TRD staff, either due to laziness, incompetence, inexperience, or a combination of all of these.  

 

What is one to do in such a case? 

 

Yes, I know I need to file, based on having assessable income over THB60K. I know how to complete the PND90, and after all TEDA, the amount due is zero. The calculation shows a sum well below the taxable amount.

 

But when it goes through the system (by e-filing), is it going to open me up to more multiple hours to prove that I am well below the taxable amount, if documentary proof is requested? Will that documentary proof even be understood? My experience through research at TRD indicates a resounding "no". On top of this, questions asked (to TRD staff) have received completely different answers, when asked again, or at a different office.

[anrcaccount]

28 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Yes, I know I need to file, based on having assessable income over THB60K. I know how to complete the PND90, and after all TEDA, the amount due is zero. The calculation shows a sum well below the taxable amount.

 

But when it goes through the system (by e-filing), is it going to open me up to more multiple hours to prove that I am well below the taxable amount, if documentary proof is requested? Will that documentary proof even be understood? My experience through research at TRD indicates a resounding "no". On top of this, questions asked (to TRD staff) have received completely different answers, when asked again, or at a different office.

 

There's a old saying that applies to you, and the vast majority of foreigners in Thailand, when comes to filing a tax return.

 

I think this saying is applicable for both the foreigner, and the Thai TRD. 

 

"More trouble than it's worth" 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

 

Yes, I know I need to file, based on having assessable income over THB60K. I know how to complete the PND90, and after all TEDA, the amount due is zero. The calculation shows a sum well below the taxable amount.

 

But when it goes through the system (by e-filing), is it going to open me up to more multiple hours to prove that I am well below the taxable amount, if documentary proof is requested? Will that documentary proof even be understood? My experience through research at TRD indicates a resounding "no". On top of this, questions asked (to TRD staff) have received completely different answers, when asked again, or at a different office.

As I have said, there will be chaos. 

 

It's up to each member to navigate a path through the fog of Thailand's tax policy. 

 

I don't see doing NOTHING as an option, but that's just my opinion. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

There's a old saying that applies to you, and the vast majority of foreigners in Thailand, when comes to filing a tax return.

 

I think this saying is applicable for both the foreigner, and the Thai TRD. 

 

"More trouble than it's worth" 

Why doesn't the same saying exist for the immigration department amongst foreigners? 

 

Why is compliance with the TRD viewed in a different light by foreigners? 

[samtam]

On 1/28/2025 at 8:16 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

There's a old saying that applies to you, and the vast majority of foreigners in Thailand, when comes to filing a tax return.

 

I think this saying is applicable for both the foreigner, and the Thai TRD. 

 

"More trouble than it's worth" 

 

The longer I wait to file my (e-file) saved PND90, and with the vague statement from the Finance Minister Pichai on 14 February 2025, I am now coming round to thinking it would be better not to file.

 

The filing is easy enough, it's the documentation, which as aforementioned (in the quote) is not straightforward... 

 

Quote

From what I gather, (in a subsequent break down of the actual Thai conversation), the Thai lady thought my UK State Pension was paid in UK, (which it is), and then I transferred it directly to my Thai bank, which I don't. I transfer it to an account in Hong Kong, in GBP, and then convert that to HKD or THB, and not the full amount, because I have a multicurrency account. The reconciliation process which she thinks is going to be straightforward, is going to be far from that. And with 74 such transactions (which are direct "remittances"), they are subdivided, depending on currency transaction. I have a complete record, extrapolated from the composite bank statements. If I provide the bank statements, they will have to have several trails to follow, in order to reach the source. Sure, they can go through that process, but it will take time and effort on both our parts, which I think they do not appreciate.

 

I have read some unverified comment on Expat Tax that there are penalties for not filing. What are these penalties, (bearing in mind my tax due is ZERO)? Or is it just arbitrary? My Thai friend who has been helping me do the online file said he omitted to file for 2 years running, (change of job, circumstances). He went in the third year, apologised, was not fined and did not even pay back taxes.

 

Grateful for anyone with reliable knowledge or experience could share.

[motdaeng]

24 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

The longer I wait to file my (e-file) saved PND90, and with the vague statement from the Finance Minister Pichai on 14 February 2025, I am now coming round to thinking it would be better not to file.

 

The filing is easy enough, it's the documentation, which as aforementioned (in the quote) is not straightforward... 

 

 

I have read some unverified comment on Expat Tax that there are penalties for not filing. What are these penalties, (bearing in mind my tax due is ZERO)? Or is it just arbitrary? My Thai friend who has been helping me do the online file said he omitted to file for 2 years running, (change of job, circumstances). He went in the third year, apologised, was not fined and did not even pay back taxes.

 

Grateful for anyone with reliable knowledge or experience could share.

some good points ... but if you like to play safe, you should know what to do ... 

listen to a friend or to a front office staff at TRD without getting any written confirmation, that's not playing safe ...

but anyway, it's up to you ...

[NoDisplayName]

32 minutes ago, samtam said:

The filing is easy enough, it's the documentation, which as aforementioned (in the quote) is not straightforward... 

 

What documentation is needed?  You're claiming all your remittances are assessable, below your TEDA, and no tax due.  I could see some evidence necessary if claiming a tax credit or a refund, but this is a simple null return. 

 

I could see needing evidence to show income is NON-assessable (which is not reported), but you're not doing that.  You're claiming you brought in assessable income.  TRD isn't going to make you prove that, are they?  You don't have to prove source of income IS taxable. 

 

Remember, this is an honour system.  WE self-determine if income is assessable.  I would expect nothing will be required, but have bank statements showing remittances into Thailand available in the very unlikely event you are questioned.  Nothing from offshore banks, just the money being received in your Thai account.

 

Correct me if I'm worng, but you only enter a few numbers - the total assessable remittance under 'salaries income', your bank info if claiming a refund (bank statement would be required), and check the correct boxes for your allowances.

 

Maybe you should start a new tax thread with the specific question.  Hopefully someone who's done it can adv....er....opinionate.

 

"File online, taxable pension but no tax due.  Any docs needed?"

 

As to penalties, if I were in your crocs, I wouldn't worry.  The penalty for failure to file is minimal, with the scary numbers being levied on taxes actually due.  You should still have until the end of the calendar year to submit a late filing with a 200 baht late fee.

 

**AS ALWAYS, OPINION ONLY.  NOT ADVICE**

 

[samtam]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

I would expect nothing will be required, but have bank statements showing remittances into Thailand available in the very unlikely event you are questioned.  Nothing from offshore banks, just the money being received in your Thai account.

 

 

The point is I have NO remittances into Thailand, so my Thailand bank accounts show NO remittances into Thailand. ("Remittance" is the term used to cover say a telegraphic transfer, or bank transfer; there are none for 2024.)

 

My "remittances" are ONLY via ATM withdrawals (using foreign bank ATM account) and Debit Card transactions (using foreign bank account).

The only statements that show these are my foreign bank statements, which have 70% of transactions completely unrelated to the 2 methods aforementioned. If I give these statements to TRD they are not going to understand them, as they are a composite of my multicurrency accounts, and the ATM withdrawals and Debit Card transactions are from a source that varies; Example: Debit Card withdrawal of say THB 219, source: UK State Pension paid in UK, and transferred in GBP to my GBP account in my foreign bank, or from my THB foreign bank account, (partial sum), or source dividend on a foreign held share, (partial sum).

 

Quote

Correct me if I'm worng, but you only enter a few numbers - the total assessable remittance under 'salaries income', your bank info if claiming a refund (bank statement would be required), and check the correct boxes for your allowances.

 

Yes, that is correct, (using the broad sense of "remittance"). AFAIK, RD has not defined "remittance".

 

The RD guide for completion of PND90 does not specify pension or debit card income, but is one of the many areas disputed by RD and tax experts alike. If they want documentary evidence I will probably end up sending them scanned copies of all the ATM withdrawal advices, (already scanned) and all the Debit Card transaction slips, about 150 documents in all. They all tally, down to the last satang.

Quote

 

Maybe you should start a new tax thread with the specific question.  Hopefully someone who's done it can adv....er....opinionate.

 

"File online, taxable pension but no tax due.  Any docs needed?"

 

 

I will.