To be an Aussie non-resident for Tax, or not?

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:28 PM, Pattaya57 said:

For me, I've decided to stay "on holiday" for a year remaining as a Resident for Tax, while next year I'm likely to extend that "holiday". Hopefully the new proposed tax laws are in place by then and I can use my 45 days spent in Aus during the 2024 tax year to maintain resident status for 2025 & 2026 tax years (then go back to Aus for 45 days holiday in 2027 to keep me good until 2030)

I hope it stays at 45 days.  I could do the 45 days.  I wouldn't be happy about it, but could it.  However, it's probably going to go to 60 or 90 days.  I could still do it, but 90 days might knock many out of the game. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 12:00 AM, Will27 said:

Still Scaremongering I see.

No, not scaremongering, just discussing proposed Australia's changes to resident tax enforcement, much the same as many are discussing Thailand's decision to start enforcing remittance tax.  

 

On 8/18/2024 at 12:00 AM, Will27 said:

Immigration do not advise the ATO every time someone enters and leaves the country.

That's because currently just about everyone leaving Australia can claim they are still "domiciled" in Australia, and just on a "long holiday" thus still a tax resident. 

 

The ATO can pick one out of the herd and put the heat on them, but if they have maintained a "domicile" (property) and a bank account, drivers license, club memberships, utility bilsl, community ties etc, they can argue they have every intention of returning to Australia, therefore, they are still a resident for tax purposes. 

 

Assessing such information is complex and labor intensive, and can be appealed, because how can the ATO prove one's state of mind, that is, their "intention" or otherwise, to return, or not return? 

 

So, they make the "primary test" or "bright line test" 183 days.  No ifs, not buts, no reviews, no appeals.  Outside of Australia 183 days, you are a non resident for tax purposes, even if you really do have an intention of returning, and are actually on a genuine "long holiday of 12 months.  

 

After the proposed changes are passed, Immigration will send the ATO a list, on a daily basis, of the details of Aussies outside of a Australia for 183 days, and you can expect contact from the ATO, or, a "please explain" at tax time, coupled with a non resident tax bill, and what argument will you be able to mount against paying that bill? 

 

On 8/18/2024 at 12:00 AM, Will27 said:

Of course, if the ATO wants to check on a particular individual they can.

Or, many individuals.  Computer data bases do all the heavy lifting.  

 

On 8/18/2024 at 12:00 AM, Will27 said:

But to say that Immigration advises the ATO of everyone who comes and goes is just incorrect.

That's the way it is now, but in my opinion, that will not be the case after the proposed changes are passed.  The physical presence and time based model relies on immigration records. 

 

No point immigration collecting such data if they do not hand it on to the ATO. 

 

On 8/18/2024 at 12:00 AM, Will27 said:

Yes, people on benefits are linked to Immigration.

Correct, that's why their supplements are cut off, automatically, after 6 weeks, even though people don't tell Centerlink they are going overseas. 

 

Now, why will not / can not the same system be in place to enforce non resident tax, except it's after 183 days, not 6 weeks?  It's just a tweak of the computer programing and the pension payment after being outside of Australia for 183 days is 30% less, just in the same way the pension payment after being outside of Australia for 6 weeks is less because the supplements are withheld? 

 

Please tell me you have some information / advice other than, "the government would never do that."  Remember, non resident tax is a tax thousands of expats all around the world should have been paying for decades, including myself. 

 

It's the loopholes in the current 90 year old laws that have seen practically none of us pay it, hence, the proposed changes.   

 

As I have said before, when the payer, Centerlink, and the taxer, the ATO, are both government departments, they control, through legislation, how much money you get.  

 

I just can't see immigration telling Centerlink that Aussie pensioner John Smith has been outside of Australia for 183 days, thus a non resident for tax purposes, and Centerlink doing nothing, particularly as Centerlink automatically cut off the supplements after 6 weeks.  

 

As for those who are self funded, Immigration inform the ATO that Bill Blogs has been outside of Australia for 183 days, and come tax time the ATO contact Bill Blogs that he has been deemed a non resident for tax purposes, thus will be taxed at 30% from $0.  

 

If not for the above, what is the purpose of the proposed changes? 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:06 AM, Nemises said:

Just found out yesterday that if you receive a benefit you are supposed to tell Centrelink if you intend to leave the country, regardless of duration. So immediately went onto the Centrelink app, and yep, they have a section where you enter in your impending overseas details. Wondering if better to pretend I never saw this and let immigration tell them instead...

 

 

Many don't tell Centerlink they are going to be outside of Australia, and 6 weeks later they receive less money. 

 

They ring Centerlink where a staff member tells them "it's because you are overseas" despite the pensioner non volunteering this information.  Now how did Centerlink know this?  

 

Why couldn't / wouldn't the same be done for 30% non resident tax after 183 days outside of Australia????

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:17 AM, rhodie said:

It would seem that Centrelink get notified whenever you leave or enter the country, so even though you are supposed to notify them, it doesn't matter. I have friends receiving the pension that have never notified their movements, but their pensions are adjusted automatically when they come and go from Australia.

Correct, so what does this tell you?  Immigration inform Centerlink of Aussies going overseas, and if you are pensioner, 6 weeks later you lose some of the pension. 

 

What's stopping the same system for 30% non resident tax after 183 days. 

 

Keeping in mind. the pension is deemed an income, and is taxable. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:30 AM, Nemises said:

Perfect! Pays for the airfare.

I've heard of "visa runs" to neighboring countries, but not "supplement runs" back to Australia. 

[Pattaya57]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

No, not scaremongering, just discussing proposed Australia's changes to resident tax enforcement, much the same as many are discussing Thailand's decision to start enforcing remittance tax.  

This thread is about being a resident or non-resident in accordance with current tax laws.

 

How about you start your own thread about these proposed changes to resident tax laws instead of de-railing every thread with your constant repetive posts about your speculative opinion, which doesn't even quote the proposed laws correctly. 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, Nemises said:

Try using their website (not their app) on your laptop/PC (not on your phone) with a VPN. 
You’re now back under the radar!

True, but if transferring the money to an overseas account in their own name, it doesn't take the bank long to figure out their "customer" could be overseas, thus triggering their contact where the customer has to "declare" their tax resident status, which comes with penalties for making a false declaration.  

 

I've had this a few times, from two different banks. 

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

 

Not Centrelink, but I get a fortnightly DVA payment that is supposed to only be paid when actually located in Australia. I'm in my 5th month out this year and I'm still being paid. Seems immigration has better things to do then advise all government departments of old retired guys whereabouts 😉

 

A Vet's pension is one of the pensions covered under Article 19 in the DTA between Australia and Thailand.  It'[s an "occupational pension."  You should be fine.  The aged pension not so. 

[Nemises]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

On 8/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Nemises said:

If 183 days?  Then yes, big problem for many.

Yes, so do you have any advice for them? 

 

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

This thread is about being a resident or non-resident in accordance with current tax laws.

 

How about you start your own thread about these proposed changes to resident tax laws instead of de-railing every thread with your constant repetive posts about your speculative opinion, which doesn't even quote the proposed laws correctly. 

Under the current laws tell no government department anything. 

 

If ever asked by the ATO or your bank, you tell them you are still "domiciled" in Australia and just on a long holiday.  The ATO can't prove otherwise.  That's why many, including myself, have never paid a cent of non resident tax. 

 

That's it.  Simple.  

 

So, you may as well ask a Mod to close the thread.  

 

Now, should we find out next week the proposed changes start on the 1st July 2025, well, how but we keep this thread open, just for old times sake.  

 

Look over in the Property and Finance Forum how many threads there are on Thailand now enforcing remittance tax, and possibly world wide income.  Aussies will soon be faced with 183 days, in a similar way to Thailand's 180 days, but hey, let's just live in the here and now.   

[ElwoodP]

Closed at OPs request.