Owning A Business

[Rionoir]

Is it possible for my Thai partner to start a business in Thailand and have me work for him? We want to start a photography business, and I understand I can't own a photo biz in Thailand as a foreigner. But can a Thai just start a business there like in the US, or how does it work? Photographer is on the list of prohibited jobs for foreigners, but he called one of his friends at the consulate in Thailand and was told that I just can't own a photo biz, but that a company can hire me to be a photographer with no problem.

Anyone know anything about this? What does he have to do to officially have a business that could hire me?

[onethailand]

Is it possible for my Thai partner to start a business in Thailand and have me work for him? We want to start a photography business, and I understand I can't own a photo biz in Thailand as a foreigner. But can a Thai just start a business there like in the US, or how does it work? Photographer is on the list of prohibited jobs for foreigners, but he called one of his friends at the consulate in Thailand and was told that I just can't own a photo biz, but that a company can hire me to be a photographer with no problem.

Anyone know anything about this? What does he have to do to officially have a business that could hire me?

I didn't think photography was on the prohibited list, so I went to have a second look.

http://www.buyusa.gov/thailand/en/visa_workpermit.html

As you can see, it's not there. So you should be fine, although obviously the best thing is to double-check with the official Thai version (which I can't seem to find online).

As long as he registers the company with at least 2 million baht capital (doesn't have to be paid up though), and has at least 3 Thai employees plus himself, he is entitled to hire a foreigner provided that person is able to obtain a work permit (which isn't hard).

Edited July 30, 2007 by onethailand

[Maestro]

Is it possible for my Thai partner to start a business in Thailand and have me work for him?...I understand I can't own a photo biz in Thailand as a foreigner...Photographer is on the list of prohibited jobs for foreigners...

It seems that your Thai partner has given you wrong information.

1. Business ownership

Generally, foreigners can own up to 59% of a company’s shares. If you are a US citizen (you mentioned an enquirey made from the US embassy) you can own up to 99.4% of most types of business under the Amity Treaty (the other 0.6% are shares for the other six shareholders, who do not necessarily have to be Thai, needed to register a company)

2. Work permit

As Onethailand has already mentioned, photography is not on the list of restricted ocuppations and therefore you can get a work permit to work as a photographer for your company.

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Maestro

[onethailand]

It seems that your Thai partner has given you wrong information.

1. Business ownership

Generally, foreigners can own up to 59% of a company’s shares. If you are a US citizen (you mentioned an enquirey made from the US embassy) you can own up to 99.4% of most types of business under the Amity Treaty (the other 0.6% are shares for the other six shareholders, who do not necessarily have to be Thai, needed to register a company)

2. Work permit

As Onethailand has already mentioned, photography is not on the list of restricted ocuppations and therefore you can get a work permit to work as a photographer for your company.

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Maestro

I think you meant 49% And I left out the Amity Treaty part because I didn't think it was what he/she was trying to do - but of course you are correct. Not quite sure about the 6 other shareholders having to be Thai, but you're probably right. My 6 are Thai anyhow.

[Maestro]

I think you meant 49%

Right, 49% is what I meant. Thanks for pointing out my error. (Now I go and clean my spectacles )

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Maestro

[Rionoir]

You know, there was a 2nd list that was from 1979 that was added to the original... and under Services, "photography" was specifically mentioned. Also, an American photog from Thailand had pointed it out to me, which is why I went looking for it. The list with photography is on this forum somewhere, but I don't remember where I found it. Anyway, if it isn't that would be great... but that's what I've had a photog tell me and have seen.

Ok, so... as far as getting a work permit to take pictures in Thailand... I'm still confused now. We would be starting from scratch over there pretty much, so I think having 2 million baht would be out of the question. And the thing about photography is a lot of it would be contract work, so could the companies in Thailand that do destination weddings be able to hire me or help me get a work permit or anything?

Sorry... this is so confusing... and my partner obviously has never had to deal with getting a work permit over there, so knows nothing about it. heh

Thx for the replies though

[onethailand]

You know, there was a 2nd list that was from 1979 that was added to the original... and under Services, "photography" was specifically mentioned. Also, an American photog from Thailand had pointed it out to me, which is why I went looking for it. The list with photography is on this forum somewhere, but I don't remember where I found it. Anyway, if it isn't that would be great... but that's what I've had a photog tell me and have seen.

Ok, so... as far as getting a work permit to take pictures in Thailand... I'm still confused now. We would be starting from scratch over there pretty much, so I think having 2 million baht would be out of the question. And the thing about photography is a lot of it would be contract work, so could the companies in Thailand that do destination weddings be able to hire me or help me get a work permit or anything?

Sorry... this is so confusing... and my partner obviously has never had to deal with getting a work permit over there, so knows nothing about it. heh

Thx for the replies though

There are a number of well-known photographers here who are not Thai. I'd like to see that 1979 list.

I do think it is highly unlikely you would be able to find a company willing to give a photographer a work permit unless you have top-notch credentials which they need. But you will not need 2 million baht in the bank or anything like that - that's just a requirement for registered capital. It doesn't cost much to registered a 2 million baht limited company and the requirements are not that hard.

Your best bet is to contact a company which can perform this type of service for you for more detailed information.

[Chang_paarp]

You are correct photography is one of the professions listed on the "not for foreigners" list, so is engineering, accountancy and almost every other profession. This has not stopped many accountans, lawyers and architects getting jobs with work permits.

You can start the company and can own the company as per the advice above. The company can hire you as a managing director, a photographic consultant (the assistant presses the shutter button).

The company has to show that theycould not get the job filled by a Thai, so you become a photographic consultant with expertiese in delivering 5th avenue quality results or some other expertiese. That is why there are so many consultants or advisers in the falangcommunity.

It is best to speak to a company that has experience in this field. I, amongst others sugest you click on the sponsor's advert at the top of the page and talk with Sunbelt Asia.

[A_Traveller]

Link to the unofficial {they all are by law} translation of the Alien Business act 1999

Ministry of Justice Thailand ABA 1999 {pdf}

Regards

PS I don't see photography mentioned in Annex 3 {same as Accounting, engineering, legal, etc..}

/edit add PS & pdf//

Edited July 31, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Maestro]

From the Alien Business Act B.E.2542 (1999):

Businesses not permitted to be operated by aliens ...

(21) Other service businesses, except for the service businesses prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If photography is a service business, one would have to consult the Ministerial Regulations mentioned in the above quote. But let us remember that “not permitted to be operated by aliens” simply means that foreigners are not allowed to own the majority of shares.

It is best to speak to a company that has experience in this field. I, amongst others sugest you click on the sponsor's advert at the top of the page and talk with Sunbelt Asia.

That’s right. Rionoir, if anybody on ThaiVisa can tell you for sure, Sunbelt Asia can. In the end, you will probably need a legal firm to help you with the incorporation of your company anyway so you may as well consider Sunbelt, unless you already have somebody else lined up. For your own security, you may not want to rely exclusively on your partner to handle things and blindly sign any document in Thai put before you.

Regarding the list of restricted occupations, which relates to work permits, the updated list was posted here and matches the list on the website of buyusa.gov linked above by Onethailand, I guess (I didn’t compare it in detail)

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Maestro

[onethailand]

From the Alien Business Act B.E.2542 (1999):

Businesses not permitted to be operated by aliens ...

(21) Other service businesses, except for the service businesses prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If photography is a service business, one would have to consult the Ministerial Regulations mentioned in the above quote. But let us remember that “not permitted to be operated by aliens” simply means that foreigners are not allowed to own the majority of shares.

It is best to speak to a company that has experience in this field. I, amongst others sugest you click on the sponsor's advert at the top of the page and talk with Sunbelt Asia.

That’s right. Rionoir, if anybody on ThaiVisa can tell you for sure, Sunbelt Asia can. In the end, you will probably need a legal firm to help you with the incorporation of your company anyway so you may as well consider Sunbelt, unless you already have somebody else lined up. For your own security, you may not want to rely exclusively on your partner to handle things and blindly sign any document in Thai put before you.

Regarding the list of restricted occupations, which relates to work permits, the updated list was posted here and matches the list on the website of buyusa.gov linked above by Onethailand, I guess (I didn’t compare it in detail)

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Maestro

Do note that the reference is to "businesses not permitted to be operated by aliens" as opposed to "occupations prohibited to aliens".

The simple way around, as chang_paarp (literally, photographer) points out, is to not "officially" be a photographer.

[Maestro]

The simple way around, as chang_paarp (literally, photographer) points out, is to not "officially" be a photographer.

But photography is not a restricted occupation, is it? Therefore, no workaround should be necessary. A work permit as photographer should be obtainable without any problem if the employer can demonstrate that he could not find a Thai national meeting the requirements.

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Maestro

[onethailand]

The simple way around, as chang_paarp (literally, photographer) points out, is to not "officially" be a photographer.

But photography is not a restricted occupation, is it? Therefore, no workaround should be necessary. A work permit as photographer should be obtainable without any problem if the employer can demonstrate that he could not find a Thai national meeting the requirements.

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Maestro

Having not read any additional addendums I can't say for sure one way or the other. I thought it was not restricted - but chang-paarp says it is, and as he is obviously a photographer he is more likely to know about this than I am!

Nevertheless - I doubt there are many, if any, companies who would issue a work permit for a photographer unless they have plenty to spare. The best way forward is to register a limited company, whether Thai or under the Treaty of Amity - and then use that company to issue the work permit for something acceptable (for example, general manager, director of operations, etc.) - in this way, the job isn't "photography", it's managing the operations of a company which specializes in photography.

They are not going to stop you from taking photographs unless that is all you do for the company - otherwise practically any farang involved in field operations and taking photos of construction sites, for example, would be in breach of the law.

[A_Traveller]

<snip>

They are not going to stop you from taking photographs unless that is all you do for the company - otherwise practically any farang involved in field operations and taking photos of construction sites, for example, would be in breach of the law.

Well they may well be.

There was a thread which looked suspiciously that a farang had been set-up, by being sent to a site and being 'caught' acting as an engineer, a specifically excluded activity. The link I posted does not include photography in Annex 3 so I do not believe that being a photographer would be a restricted occupation.

In short it is better to have a work permit for the activity you are undertaking if at all possible, so as to avoid 'misunderstandings'. However one thought does cross my mind and that is what is the purpose of the photography, if it is for publication might not a view be taken that this falls under the nigh impossible 'media' visa {and associated requirements}.

Regards

[onethailand]

<snip>

They are not going to stop you from taking photographs unless that is all you do for the company - otherwise practically any farang involved in field operations and taking photos of construction sites, for example, would be in breach of the law.

Well they may well be.

There was a thread which looked suspiciously that a farang had been set-up, by being sent to a site and being 'caught' acting as an engineer, a specifically excluded activity. The link I posted does not include photography in Annex 3 so I do not believe that being a photographer would be a restricted occupation.

In short it is better to have a work permit for the activity you are undertaking if at all possible, so as to avoid 'misunderstandings'. However one thought does cross my mind and that is what is the purpose of the photography, if it is for publication might not a view be taken that this falls under the nigh impossible 'media' visa {and associated requirements}.

Regards

Performing the role of an engineer is explicitly prohibited - so I can understand that scenario. But taking a photograph hardly makes you a photographer, at least as far as occupation is concerned. That would be similar to saying "drinking a beer makes you a professional alcoholic" .

Edited July 31, 2007 by onethailand

[A_Traveller]

Performing the role of an engineer is explicitly prohibited - so I can understand that scenario. But taking a photograph hardly makes you a photographer, at least as far as occupation is concerned. That would be similar to saying "drinking a beer makes you a professional alcoholic" .

Know what you mean, but be aware that a single transgression can be very expensive and as in many places expecting logic with such restrictions {especially when they are open to interpretation} is wishful thinking.

Regards

[Rionoir]

Performing the role of an engineer is explicitly prohibited - so I can understand that scenario. But taking a photograph hardly makes you a photographer, at least as far as occupation is concerned. That would be similar to saying "drinking a beer makes you a professional alcoholic" .

Know what you mean, but be aware that a single transgression can be very expensive and as in many places expecting logic with such restrictions {especially when they are open to interpretation} is wishful thinking.

Regards

Wow thanks for all the responses. So I've been told by multiple photographers that photography is on a list somewhere, so let's just assume it is. LoL

Can someone please tell me what "registered capital" is? I am going to contact that company you all recommended, thanks so much. I'm just confused about that one part though... I've got close to 2 million baht in gear, does that help me? lol

[Moonfruit]

You are unable to work as a photographer for a Thai publication. FACT. It is on the list of prohibited jobs.

You want to get a bogus WP? I dont think so. My offices have been visited twice in the last 12 months. If you were in studio during those visits, you would be asking your buddies to bring you some phone cards and what have you. Not work it.

You may however get a freelance press visa if you can show that you have previous printed work in publications overseas, and have a retainer signed with at least one of those publications, which will be needed when you submit your WP application.

Not sure if you will get away with Stock agency work as your listed recipient of work, but it might be worth a try.

[onethailand]

Registered capital is tantamount to the amount of money you could be liable for in case of bankruptcy, lawsuits, etc. It does not mean you have to have these funds locked up *unless* the requirement is for "paid-up registered capital". Sunbelt will be able to help you there, I used them as well (Greg, you owe me and the others dinner at Sunrise Tacos).

BTW, no one said anything about a bogus WP - that's definitely not a good idea. When I mentioned being employed as a general manager or some other related position I meant that you could fulfill that role, not just take a title and do nothing but photography. Plus, the OP said nothing about working for a publication though obviously that is one role a photographer could fill - I would be more inclined to call that photojournalist instead.

I repeat, there are a number of famous photographers based in Thailand doing photography who are not Thai. I'm not going to go out of my way to point out who they are, perhaps there are even some here who are members. I doubt that any of them are breaking the law - so now the question is, just how can they do it legally?

One other thing is that the list of prohibited employment and businesses is more narrow for an American working for a Treaty of Amity company. I do not know whether "photographer" is covered in that list. I can, however, tell you that tourism/tour guides is definitely prohibited - but my Treaty company was going to be the first non-Thai company to obtain a license from the Tourism Authority of Thailand - already approved in principle - but in the end I decided it was best not to trailblaze and instead we obtained a license for the normal Thai company only.

The Treaty company is legally registered for a few of the "prohibited" businesses as well because Treaty companies are supposed to be treated as Thai companies in every respect except for one of the three lists of prohibited businesses - I believe List One was the only one applied to Treaty companies. For example, food & beverage is on List Three if I recall correctly but we have a proper registration and actually did business legally.

[A_Traveller]

Perhaps the OP could clarify a few things:-

1. Photography business means what?

2. Is the OP an American citizen?

Regards

[Rionoir]

Perhaps the OP could clarify a few things:-

1. Photography business means what?

2. Is the OP an American citizen?

Regards

Thanks for the explanation onethailand... I have contacted Sunbelt Asia so I'll see what they have to say.

traveller...

1. I want to market to foreigners getting married in Thailand. There are companies who have been interested in me (based on Thailand) already who work with destination weddings, but none of them are sure of the legality of me working for them.

2. Yes, sorry... I am US citizen and my partner is Thai citizen

[A_Traveller]

OK, so in a nutshell, wedding video/photo as part of an exotic wedding package. You would sell your expertise to the company {or would you sell to the happy couple when they arrive here [don't think so but your answer is ambiguous]} arranging the wedding package {presumably in the US} and you would be their video/photo arm here.

As a US citizen you have the option of an Amity Company which may be of some value, but it depends on how you intend to integrate your Thai partners expertise.

Given your position then advice from a suitable source would be wise.

Regards

Edit PS Effectively a business here is a two step process, in that the company is a vehicle for your activities, and the Work Permit is the permission for you as an individual to undertake the activities.

Edited July 31, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Rionoir]

OK, so in a nutshell, wedding video/photo as part of an exotic wedding package. You would sell your expertise to the company {or would you sell to the happy couple when they arrive here [don't think so but your answer is ambiguous]} arranging the wedding package {presumably in the US} and you would be their video/photo arm here.

As a US citizen you have the option of an Amity Company which may be of some value, but it depends on how you intend to integrate your Thai partners expertise.

Given your position then advice from a suitable source would be wise.

Regards

I will have to look into that Amity Company thing, I don't know anything about it... I have just started researching this a couple of days ago. So I apologize if I come across as not having a clue - I really don't at this point. LoL

I am open to either offering my services through a Thai based company that arranges destination weddings, or arranging photography directly with the couple themselves... if one is easier to do legally than the other I'm fine with either situation.

Well thanks again for the input.

[A_Traveller]

I will have to look into that Amity Company thing, I don't know anything about it... I have just started researching this a couple of days ago. So I apologize if I come across as not having a clue - I really don't at this point. LoL

I am open to either offering my services through a Thai based company that arranges destination weddings, or arranging photography directly with the couple themselves... if one is easier to do legally than the other I'm fine with either situation.

Well thanks again for the input.

If you sell here to Thai companies who arrange weddings they won't be too concerned about if the company is Amity or not {they won't know} but for various reasons {possible fines, aggravation} they will be concerned that you are permitted to work.

It's all a bit confusing at first, but am sure you'll get it clear in your mind soon. I'll be interested to see what people say now you have explained your position, about the legality of being a photographer here. FWIW I can't find it on any of the normal prohibited lists, but it's virtually impossible to be 100% certain that you have all the updates, unless it's your business to know and give professional advice.

Regards

PS Before I go to bed, I note that the Alien Business act 1972 does include photography in section b as prohibited unless supported by BoI, but it's not in the Annexes in the replacement act of 1999. At least not that I can see at this time of night.

Edited July 31, 2007 by A_Traveller

[RAZZELL]

Under B4 says it's prohibited:

http://www.thaivisa.com/330.0.html

But I'm sure there are ways around it. As mentioned there are many advertising, editorial, press photographer's in Bangkok, which suggest's a WP is doable.

Talk to Sunbelt.

Good luck. And please post what you find out.

RAZZ

Edited July 31, 2007 by RAZZELL

[A_Traveller]

Under B4 says it's prohibited:

http://www.thaivisa.com/330.0.html

<snip>

RAZZ

Which is 1979 not 1999. My point above stands, note to ThaiVisa {source of above} maybe that needs revising? I may, as I've said be in error, though.

Regards

Edited July 31, 2007 by A_Traveller

[onethailand]

Well, we're in for a shocker here.

The link posted above on ThaiVisa says that this is the Schedule Annexed to the Royal Decree Stipulating Work in Occupations and Professions Prohibited to Aliens B.E. 2522 (A.D. 1979) .

http://www.thaigov.go.th/en/non-resident/v...3&M_CODE=47

However, it is NOT. It is actually the Alien Business Law (N.E.C. Announcement 281), from 1972, which was replaced by the Thai Foreign Business Act of 1999 ("FBA").

Section 1. This Act shall be called the "Foreign Business Act 1999".

Section 2. This Act shall come into force immediately after the lapse of the 90-day period that commences on the date of its publication in the Government Gazette.

Section 3. The following shall be repealed:

(1) Announcement No. 281of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

(2) The Act of 1978 amending Announcement No. 281, of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

(3) Act No. 2 of 1992 amending Announcement No. 281 of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

http://www.dbd.go.th/eng/law/fba_e1999.phtml

The Schedule Annexed to the Royal Decree Stipulating Work in Occupations and Professions Prohibited to Aliens B.E. 2522 (A.D. 1979) stipulates 39 professions in which aliens may not work. That is the same list that most of us have referred to in a number of places, and photography is not amongst the professions prohibited.

The Alien Business Law does in fact state that photography is prohibited - as a BUSINESS. But this has already been superceded by the Thai Foreign Business Act (FBA) as of 3 March 2000.

The FBA stipulates the three Lists that I referred to above. Photography does NOT appear on any of these lists. And furthermore, these restricted lists are for businesses which foreigners may not operate - they do not represent occupations which are prohibited to foreigners.

Thus, it should be plainly clear that photography is NOT restricted to aliens Now you know why I asked to see a reference...

Edited July 31, 2007 by onethailand

[Rionoir]

Thanks for that onethailand! LoL Now I'm confused why an american photographer in thailand has told me it is prohibited? And then someone at the consulate made it sound like it was no problem. Ok, well that is good to hear anyway... I'm glad someone could clear up all these lists for me.

So now I'm curious... let's say I want to freelance for various companies that bring in foreigners for destination weddings. Can I get a work permit on my own somehow? Do I need one of them to sponsor me? Phew... =P

Thanks again, I really appreciate that info. You really know your stuff...

Well, we're in for a shocker here.

The link posted above on ThaiVisa says that this is the Schedule Annexed to the Royal Decree Stipulating Work in Occupations and Professions Prohibited to Aliens B.E. 2522 (A.D. 1979) .

http://www.thaigov.go.th/en/non-resident/v...3&M_CODE=47

However, it is NOT. It is actually the Alien Business Law (N.E.C. Announcement 281), from 1972, which was replaced by the Thai Foreign Business Act of 1999 ("FBA").

Section 1. This Act shall be called the "Foreign Business Act 1999".

Section 2. This Act shall come into force immediately after the lapse of the 90-day period that commences on the date of its publication in the Government Gazette.

Section 3. The following shall be repealed:

(1) Announcement No. 281of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

(2) The Act of 1978 amending Announcement No. 281, of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

(3) Act No. 2 of 1992 amending Announcement No. 281 of the National Executive Council dated November 24, 1972.

http://www.dbd.go.th/eng/law/fba_e1999.phtml

The Schedule Annexed to the Royal Decree Stipulating Work in Occupations and Professions Prohibited to Aliens B.E. 2522 (A.D. 1979) stipulates 39 professions in which aliens may not work. That is the same list that most of us have referred to in a number of places, and photography is not amongst the professions prohibited.

The Alien Business Law does in fact state that photography is prohibited - as a BUSINESS. But this has already been superceded by the Thai Foreign Business Act (FBA) as of 3 March 2000.

The FBA stipulates the three Lists that I referred to above. Photography does NOT appear on any of these lists. And furthermore, these restricted lists are for businesses which foreigners may not operate - they do not represent occupations which are prohibited to foreigners.

Thus, it should be plainly clear that photography is NOT restricted to aliens Now you know why I asked to see a reference...

[onethailand]

That depends on where the American got his information and how old it is. He might have genuinely believed it to be the case if he understood the law before 2000, or he may have unintentionally been misled by the page in question. I am sure George will get that fixed as soon as possible.

You will not be able to get a work permit on your own - only a business who meets the necessary conditions can apply for a work permit on your behalf. Whether or not a business will use up a work permit for a photographer is another story entirely.

I still believe the best way forward for you is that you or your partner gets a business set up and then apply for a work permit under that business. I can't remember ever seeing a classified ad seeking a photographer in any of the English-language newspapers - but then again I haven't looked for that type of job either.

It doesn't cost much to set up a business in Thailand so you shouldn't really need to worry about cost - your biggest cost will be the additional Thai staff required as one of the conditions, you can still work out of your living space or you can rent a small cheap office somewhere. A company like Sunbelt can tell you how much it costs to set up, depending on how and what type of company you register. You can even rent registered office space from them

And btw, you should thank Razzell for pointing out the erroneous information, and A_Traveller for actually pointing out what I expanded on after further research after I presume he went to bed

Good luck - let us know your progress.

Edited July 31, 2007 by onethailand

[Rionoir]

Thanks again. There might be an issue with that part about the extra staffing... since, ah... there really is no work for, how many people was it, 6? =P But I guess we will just have to see how it goes... thanks over and over lol, I really appreciate having this cleared up.