DTV issued

[Maestro]

@LivinLOS @Bobajob  Just for the archives, can you post a copy of the arrival stamp?

[skorchio]

Gday Living

 

how does one apply for this visa in London ? Is it an online application?

 

thanks

[Rob Browder]

5 hours ago, skorchio said:

Gday Living

 

how does one apply for this visa in London ? Is it an online application?

 

thanks

Yes - as reported in the 1st post of this thread.

[LivinLOS]

On 7/18/2024 at 1:20 PM, MiFo said:

Did you have to prove that you had 500’000 baht? @LivinLOS

Yes I had 500k in Thailand but uploaded a western bank (with a healthy balance) to the system

[LivinLOS]

On 7/18/2024 at 1:45 PM, Steve the Scot said:

Thanks for the information,  I've put my application in and the only thing they came back with was, the contract for a job I had to never  showed my name at the top but at the bottom ,  I have tried to attach another with more details ,  if this fails I will try a letter like yourself with some documents attached ,  did you show your full tax return or some basic tax letter?  Hopefully I will be ok but if not could I reach out to see what your letter said ? Kind regards Steven 

 

Letter from one of my own companies (dir on letterhead) and a tax summary of last year (irish)
 

On 7/18/2024 at 2:01 PM, Pickwick said:

 

I've read the entire thread, so I apologise for the question as I think I may have missed something but can't see anything where. Did you show proof of the 500,000 in an offshore account and not a Thai bank? (I appreciate we are not discussing tax, but if the 500,000 does not need to be remitted to Thailand, that could be a selling point for me with this visa.)

 

I showed outside Thailand

[LivinLOS]

On 7/18/2024 at 9:10 PM, FridgeMagnet1 said:

You boys really love to over complicate or just not bother to read the requirements.

 

you don’t need to have a single penny in a Thai bank and there is no requirement never to go below 500K THB in your own currency 

Actually theres some room for debate here.. In the minutes of the cabinet (IIRC I have read so many docs now) meeting theres the wording that 500k 'throughout the stay'.. but of course translation, interpretation etc. 

 

I can easily imagine 500k being needed to extend at 180 days being part of it. 

 

[LivinLOS]

On 7/19/2024 at 2:07 AM, SouthThailand said:

"DTV holders, together with spouses and dependent children, will be entitled to a five-year stay with multiple entries for cumulative stays not exceeding 180 days, which can be extended for another 180 days"

 

Source: TAT

 

ST

TAT is a mess tho.. This isnt stated in the royal gazette or the cabinet meeting minutes. 

In fact clause 4 clearly states 'unlimited number of times' 

Edited July 22 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

On 7/19/2024 at 2:35 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Looked but did not find it on this thread - does anyone know if a DTV means you do not have to report every 90 days.

Also - does someone with a DTV have to report when moving to a new Province ? TM30/28 etc.

If those things are not required then I think that DTV is a far better option than any long term Visa or annual extension process.

 

these will be required is my reading. Theres no reason why they would not be to apply to all non Thais irrespective of visa class. 

[LivinLOS]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:46 AM, anrcaccount said:

 

Correct.

 

No catch.

 

TH wants more long term visitors and is relaxing visa requirements to make it easier for them to stay. 

Combined with the new tax rules it would seem they will look for returns on all long stayers (info published last week) so opening the doors and opening the tax collection. 

[LivinLOS]

On 7/20/2024 at 3:51 AM, lamyai3 said:

There's no history of deportations of online workers here

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

I assume you will retract that and not make that claim again ? 

[LivinLOS]

On 7/21/2024 at 7:41 AM, Maestro said:

@LivinLOS @Bobajob  Just for the archives, can you post a copy of the arrival stamp?

Will in august but I am not sure back fror a bit

[Rob Browder]

6 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

I assume you will retract that and not make that claim again ? 

From the story you linked:

> The Australian teacher had been living in Thailand for three years, two of those on a tourist visa.

 

What visa was he on the 3rd year?  Did this have something to do with it?

 

> He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand.

> But after his neighbour complained, John said he got a knock at the door.

“On the first day there was no problems,” he said. “But they came back a few days later and picked me up. When they want it to be a problem, it’s a problem.

 

How did his neighbor know what he was doing?  Why did they rat him out?  It sounds like he was not popular with the locals, and they just wanted him gone.  And, the story is about the IDC, not a prison; no information is given on what charges were filed. 

[Phillip9]

14 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

On 7/18/2024 at 3:35 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Looked but did not find it on this thread - does anyone know if a DTV means you do not have to report every 90 days.

Also - does someone with a DTV have to report when moving to a new Province ? TM30/28 etc.

If those things are not required then I think that DTV is a far better option than any long term Visa or annual extension process.

 

these will be required is my reading. Theres no reason why they would not be to apply to all non Thais irrespective of visa class. 

 

If you never visit immigration, is there any way you will be penalized for not filing 90 day reports?  

 

I think most all DTV holders will never do an extension, and just exit the country twice per year.

[AreYouGerman]

On 7/20/2024 at 5:49 AM, anrcaccount said:

Outside of a handful of fringe cases, there's zero enforcement, desire for enforcement, or any consequences,  for anyone remote working in Thailand, on any visa type.

 

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people working remotely in Thailand, every day, and have been for many years, on all types of visas.

 

And the only people grumpy about it are boomers who spent their entire life in a factory and don't want young people enjoy their lives. "Son, you must stay in your home country, pay taxes and once you're 67 you are allowed to have fun!" 🫠

[AreYouGerman]

4 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

I think most all DTV holders will never do an extension, and just exit the country twice per year.

 

Source?

 

Why would anybody travel to the border if you can just go to a visa agent and give him 1000 THB to do the leg work? Or even the cheap charlies could just go to the immigration themselves and are done with it in a cuple of hours. Makes no sense skipping the extension.

[anrcaccount]

18 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

I assume you will retract that and not make that claim again ? 

 

I don't think that poster needs a retraction, the statement is pretty fair. I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread, I think it bears repeating, what you've cited above is a fringe case, at best. I'm willing to bet, there was a reason that person in the article got into strife, that was completely unrelated to their online working. 

 

 

"Outside of a handful of fringe cases, there's zero enforcement, desire for enforcement, or any consequences,  for anyone remote working in Thailand, on any visa type.

 

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people working remotely in Thailand, every day, and have been for many years, on all types of visas."

 

 

 

[Phillip9]

37 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

Why would anybody travel to the border if you can just go to a visa agent and give him 1000 THB to do the leg work? Or even the cheap charlies could just go to the immigration themselves and are done with it in a cuple of hours. Makes no sense skipping the extension.

It's 10,000 baht for the DTV extension.  I guess I'm assuming everyone is like me -- I'd rather spend that money on a flight and take a holiday instead of giving it to immigration.

Edited July 22 by Phillip9

[stuarty]

It's 10,000 baht for the DTV extension.  I guess I'm assuming everyone is like me -- I'd rather spend that money on a flight and take a holiday instead of giving it to immigration.

 

It's not yet established what will be the cost of  DTV extension. Most think it will be same as other visas, i.e. B1,900. Also if you travel out and back in within the 180 days, the 5 years visa will cost B10,000 total (ok plus travel costs).

Edited July 22 by stuarty

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Rob Browder said:

From the story you linked:

> The Australian teacher had been living in Thailand for three years, two of those on a tourist visa.

 

What visa was he on the 3rd year?  Did this have something to do with it?

 

> He said in the last year he was teaching English to Chinese students online through an Australian company, and said he was told this was fine because no money was exchanged through Thailand.

> But after his neighbour complained, John said he got a knock at the door.

“On the first day there was no problems,” he said. “But they came back a few days later and picked me up. When they want it to be a problem, it’s a problem.

 

How did his neighbor know what he was doing?  Why did they rat him out?  It sounds like he was not popular with the locals, and they just wanted him gone.  And, the story is about the IDC, not a prison; no information is given on what charges were filed. 

What does it matter what visa he was son, you claimed you can work online on any visa and that no one has ever been punished for it.. I know of 2 other cases from Phuket days also but no media as they were just arrested and gone. 

What does it matter what his neighbour said.. He was arrested and deported for working online... The same as the Chinese vlogger was who embarassed them. 

Edited July 22 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I don't think that poster needs a retraction, the statement is pretty fair. I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread, I think it bears repeating, what you've cited above is a fringe case, at best. I'm willing to bet, there was a reason that person in the article got into strife, that was completely unrelated to their online working. 

 

 

"Outside of a handful of fringe cases, there's zero enforcement, desire for enforcement, or any consequences,  for anyone remote working in Thailand, on any visa type.

 

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people working remotely in Thailand, every day, and have been for many years, on all types of visas."

 

 

 

You are moving the goalposts.. What I told them to retract and never claim again was "There's no history of deportations of online workers here" which is factually a lie. 

There IS history of it, this one, the Chinese vlogger etc.. Maybe they are fringe cases, maybe they upset someone, but it clearly proves what the law is because if it was not illegal, it could not have been used against them to deport them when they wished to do so. 

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/aussie-teacher-details-horrific-conditions-inside-thai-detention/news-story/d432a704bf0db1def6d79489ae1b830c

I assume you will retract that and not make that claim again ? 

 

Sounds like he was upsetting his neighbour on a regular basis to the extent that the neighbour filed a complaint. Yes, if you're making noisy zoom calls at unsociable hours in a studio apartment with thin walls you're going to get in trouble. If he'd been discreet and not caused trouble for people around him he'd most certainly have been left alone like many others are.

 

From an interview a few years ago with the Chiang Mai Work Permit Office:

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

https://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

Source?

 

Why would anybody travel to the border if you can just go to a visa agent and give him 1000 THB to do the leg work? Or even the cheap charlies could just go to the immigration themselves and are done with it in a cuple of hours. Makes no sense skipping the extension.

Depends on if it is 1900 or 10,000 THB.. The cabinet meeting says 10k for the extension, the royal gazette doesnt.

[AreYouGerman]

Just now, LivinLOS said:

Depends on if it is 1900 or 10,000 THB.. The cabinet meeting says 10k for the extension, the royal gazette doesnt.

 

I would pay 20,000.

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

 

Sounds like he was upsetting his neighbour on a regular basis to the extent that the neighbour filed a complaint. Yes, if you're making noisy zoom calls at unsociable hours in a studio apartment with thin walls you're going to get in trouble. If he'd been discreet and not caused trouble for people around him he'd most certainly have been left alone like many others are.

 

From an interview a few years ago with the Chiang Mai Work Permit Office:

4. A foreigner sits in his apartment in Chiang Mai and teaches Chinese students online via Skype.

The verdict: " Officially, work, however it is not a main concern to our office now, so we allow the foreigner to do this without a work permit. "

This verdict considers the scale of the work and the environment.

 

https://www.chiangmailocator.com/wiki-can-digital-nomads-legally-work-in-thailand-p177

Chiang mai locator, or even a candid interview with the labour office about enforcement has zero relevance to the actual law. 

If your saying 'be descrete' you are admitting you need to hide, if you need to hide then why ?? Because it isnt legal thats why. 

If something is legal you are fully allowed to do it, you have no need to 'be descrete' !! 

FACT People have been arrested and deported for working 100% online. 
FACT That is because working online requires a work permit, a work permit exemption, or to be on one of the visa classes which carries the right to do so. 
REALITY It, like almost every law in the country, is sloppily enforced. This one also has economic and bad press implications and one Thailand doesnt push hard on unless they want to use it as a reason. 

[LivinLOS]

3 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

I would pay 20,000.

Maybe you would but you can see why many would rather border hop than pay 10k. 

I travel each year, but I dont always travel each 6 months, I will see how they handle this. 

[Rob Browder]

15 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

What does it matter what visa he was son, you claimed you can work online on any visa and that no one has ever been punished for it.. I know of 2 other cases from Phuket days also but no media as they were just arrested and gone. 

What does it matter what his neighbour said.. He was arrested and deported for working online... The same as the Chinese vlogger was who embarassed them. 

 

The "what the neighbor said" is the crux of the issue. If someone gets drunk and walks home - no problem with "public drunkenness" laws - but make an a** of yourself while drunk, and you might have a police-problem.  Same thing here.

 

If there is enforcement only when the person in question is making some sort of 2ndary problem, and blabbing about what they do, then the solution is not to be a problem to others, and hand them the rope to hang you as a bonus. 

 

Whether working online or not, it is important to remember one is a guest in other people's country, and behave accordingly.

 

Also factor in - the new tax rules turn this into a net-benefit to Thailand, so even less reason to bother people about it.

[LivinLOS]

4 minutes ago, Rob Browder said:

 

The "what the neighbor said" is the crux of the issue. If someone gets drunk and walks home - no problem with "public drunkenness" laws - but make an a** of yourself while drunk, and you might have a police-problem.  Same thing here.

 

If there is enforcement only when the person in question is making some sort of 2ndary problem, and blabbing about what they do, then the solution is not to be a problem to others, and hand them the rope to hang you as a bonus. 

 

 

If you are saying it is a poorly enforced law.. Fully agreed. I have never stated otherwise.

It is the claim that it is not illegal, or that no one has ever been punished for it, that I am saying is factually wrong.

It IS illegal, as is evidenced by the people arrested and deportated, by the my mate nate saga and clarifications, by MANY statements fromt he labour dept and immigration, by the chinese vlogger etc. It is precisely due to it being illegal that people 'need to be descrete about it' etc. If it was legal why is there any need to hide it ? 

Yes, laws in Thailand are frequently pooly enforced, theres no prostitutes in pattaya and all nightlife closes at midnight.. That fact doesnt change the law. 

[Carriemybags]

On 7/17/2024 at 11:31 PM, LivinLOS said:

Unsure if this is the first confirmed one or not ?? 

DTV issued from the London embassy already.. No contract of employment, just uploaded a letter explaining I own a company and my last years tax return for evidence.

Do I seriously have to carry a piece of paper around for the next 5 years ?? To go with my TM30 and 90 days pieces of paper ?? Is that really the system. 

On my return I intend to go visit the labour office, the DTV is marked as most are 'employment prohibited' and my local labour office had told me when I quizzed them that the LTR visa (which the BOI also claims you can work on for non Thai companies) had no exemption in law and they considered working on it for an overseas company illegal.. I am curious what they say this time, as the royal gazette announcement for the DTV specifically says ""work remotely in a special case as relating to this announcement" so who is right here ??

We now have the DTV they encourage work on, the LTR the BOI says you can work on but when challenged after the above info was obtianed call it 'an understanding with the tax office', etc etc. 

 

 

With the London evisa, did you have to submit proof of your flight to Thailand? Wanted to apply for the evisa but haven't booked flights yet

[Rob Browder]

22 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

... MANY statements from the labour dept and immigration, ...

Also statements immigration going the other way, as well - saying they don't care - not prosecuting "caught red-handed" cases, etc.   The cops don't care either. 

 

But, if Thai people raise a problem with the cops about a foreigner, they will grudgingly use dust off that antiquated law, if it is the most handy tool available. 

 

I am reminded of old laws about where you can "park" your horse - still on the books, in some areas.  The Global Internet makes this just as redundant.

 

For contrast, note how drug-laws are enforced - checkpoints, searches, sting-operations, etc - actively trying to find a violation.  

[LivinLOS]

8 hours ago, Carriemybags said:

 

With the London evisa, did you have to submit proof of your flight to Thailand? Wanted to apply for the evisa but haven't booked flights yet

No dont think so.. IIRC it only asked for the date of travel