Clear from day 1

[TedG]

43 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You keep saying that without any proof. According to the forum rules you must prove any statement of fact. I bet you can't prove it.

 

Over two years into a two week war?  Russia is in a war economy just to beat little ole Ukraine?  Russia is a dumpster fire.   

[TedG]

28 minutes ago, swissie said:

Yep. European "growth" around 0%. In spite of "sanctions" the Russian economy grew by 3.5 % last year.

The 3.5% is driven by military spending.  

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, TedG said:

 

Over two years into a two week war?  Russia is in a war economy just to beat little ole Ukraine?  Russia is a dumpster fire.   

As I thought, no proof, not true.

[Gweiloman]

14 hours ago, TedG said:

 

You are free to bring your “facts” to the table, then I’ll be happy to debunk your facts. 

The facts of this conflict requires a bit of intelligence and knowledge to understand and digest. Based on your posts, I reckon the facts are wasted on you.

[jas007]

13 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, yes. But you see Russia has the means to destroy every single NATO country many times over. The whole planet in fact.

 

Which is why the US is so hyper careful not to attack Russia herself with troops in this war, and why America would not reply if Russia drops a nuclear bomb on Ukraine. Because then America would be in a nuclear conflict with Russa. And Americans want to live.

 

Do you not understand this works both ways?

That’s all very rational, to be sure.  Unfortunately, the U.S. warmongers and Neocons seem to be devoid of any common sense.  They are delusional.  And so anything can happen.  

[Cameroni]

2 hours ago, jas007 said:

That’s all very rational, to be sure.  Unfortunately, the U.S. warmongers and Neocons seem to be devoid of any common sense.  They are delusional.  And so anything can happen.  

 

There is a human element to it all, for sure. Especially if Trump comes to power I would be quite concerned about what he does. Having said that, even he seems to be a rational person. And his military advisers surely are and would advise what it would mean to strike wth a nuclear missile at Russia, namely the death of hundreds of thousands of Americans and the destruction of entire US cities. Do you remember when Trump was playing word games with  China and that US general called China and assured them, no matter what happens America will not attack? 

 

I think the systems in place are now too rational, I can not see even the Necon lunatics being successful in unleashing war on Russia. America is like a bully, quick to kick around smaller nations, but when they know they can get a bloody nose themselves America pulls its tail in rather quickly. Even Tump did with North Korea.

Edited August 10 by Cameroni

[jas007]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

There is a human element to it all, for sure. Especially if Trump comes to power I would be quite concerned about what he does. Having said that, even he seems to be a rational person. And his military advisers surely are and would advise what it would mean to strike wth a nuclear missile at Russia, namely the death of hundreds of thousands of Americans and the destruction of entire US cities. Do you remember when Trump was playing word games with  China and that US general called China and assured them, no matter what happens America will not attack? 

 

I think the systems in place are now too rational, I can not see even the Necon lunatics being successful in unleashing war on Russia. America is like a bully, quick to kick around smaller nations, but when they know they can get a bloody nose themselves America pulls its tail in rather quickly. Even Tump did with North Korea.

 Sure.  That’s rational point of view.  I just happen to think there’s a small group of people currently driving US foreign policy that are delusional.  They live in a bubble of sorts, and seem to believe all their own nonsense.  And they are egged on by some of the best lobbyists in the world who work for the defense industry.  And, as crazy as it may seem, the only thing those people care about is money. And to that end, we now have a continual state of war in the world. Usually, it’s against nations and groups who can’t really put up much resistance.  But Russia does not fit into that category.  They have more nukes than the USA, and if they face an existential threat, they will surely use those weapons.  And so they’re now rolling the dice.  It’s all crazy and all very much unnecessary.

[Cameroni]

5 minutes ago, jas007 said:

 Sure.  That’s rational point of view.  I just happen to think there’s a small group of people currently driving US foreign policy that are delusional.  They live in a bubble of sorts, and seem to believe all their own nonsense.  And they are egged on by some of the best lobbyists in the world who work for the defense industry.  And, as crazy as it may seem, the only thing those people care about is money. And to that end, we now have a continual state of war in the world. Usually, it’s against nations and groups who can’t really put up much resistance.  But Russia does not fit into that category.  They have more nukes than the USA, and if they face an existential threat, they will surely use those weapons.  And so they’re now rolling the dice.  It’s all crazy and all very much unnecessary.

 

That was certainly the case in the 90s with that deranged slob Richard Perle, Wolfowitz and all the other neo cons.

 

Obviously Trump has major international relations deficits and is married to Israel. But I think the support for Ukraine, though they have no chance to win, is just America pursuing its natural interest, to weaken Russia.

 

As for Israel they are now out of the box so to speak and will do whatever they want.

 

I do agree with you, Russia would use the nuclear weapons if they believe they have to. And it is all so unnecessary.

Edited August 10 by Cameroni

[transam]

4 minutes ago, jas007 said:

 Sure.  That’s rational point of view.  I just happen to think there’s a small group of people currently driving US foreign policy that are delusional.  They live in a bubble of sorts, and seem to believe all their own nonsense.  And they are egged on by some of the best lobbyists in the world who work for the defense industry.  And, as crazy as it may seem, the only thing those people care about is money. And to that end, we now have a continual state of war in the world. Usually, it’s against nations and groups who can’t really put up much resistance.  But Russia does not fit into that category.  They have more nukes than the USA, and if they face an existential threat, they will surely use those weapons.  And so they’re now rolling the dice.  It’s all crazy and all very much unnecessary.

You forget, high ranking Germans did try to exterminate Hitler.....😉

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

You forget, high ranking Germans did try to exterminate Hitler.....😉

 

Stauffenberg was not that "high ranking".

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Stauffenberg was not that "high ranking".

Oh, middle to high ranking then......🥴..........🙄

[NowNow]

On 8/2/2024 at 3:19 AM, Gweiloman said:

Yes. Russia’s stated primary objective was the demilitarisation of Ukraine, not territorial gains as misrepresented by western media. In this respect they are succeeding to the point of even demilitarising Nato.

 

No, that was not their 'stated goal'. It was just one of many 'stated goals'.

The intention was to capture the whole of Ukraine, to have Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. To be right on the borders of Europe with all that entails.

All that is occurring now is not just by chance. This is a war against the Anglo-Saxons...who they think control the west. By bringing the West down they feel that the will 'restore their 'rightful status'. 

Most of the rest is just smoke and mirrors...

[NowNow]

12 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The facts of this conflict requires a bit of intelligence and knowledge to understand and digest. Based on your posts, I reckon the facts are wasted on you.

 

Have you posted any facts thus far? If not, then what about your intelligence and knowledge? Your opinion does not equate to fact simply due to you asserting that it is. The first thing that you wrote in this thread, the post to which I have posted a reply is so very obviously wrong. If you were in possession of the intelligence and knowledge that you described, you would know that their intention was to take over the whole of Ukraine, to bring it back into the fold so to speak. 

They just hoped to take it without a fight. Your statement with regard to demilitarisation is pure fiction.

 

[NowNow]

On 8/9/2024 at 1:05 PM, Cameroni said:

 

Errrrr, no. Russia, if it wanted to, can drop a nuclear bomb in Ukraine. The US in turn could not respond because it would then risk nuclear annihilation.

 

Therfore, Russia will be the undoubted winner of this conflict. It can not be any other way.

 

Foolish in the extreme. The idea that you think Russia will have won if they do that. Do you think even for a moment before you wrote that? They are hardly going to win hearts and minds if they go nuclear in Ukraine. Remember the point was to absorb Ukraine by installing their own people. That has failed. But no doubt they hope to regroup and to keep trying. If politically doesn't work, then militarily. This is what is occurring, over and over. The other side is working to dissuade them. Right now it's shuffling pieces on the board as a prelude to negotiations.

 

[Cameroni]

50 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

Foolish in the extreme. The idea that you think Russia will have won if they do that. Do you think even for a moment before you wrote that? They are hardly going to win hearts and minds if they go nuclear in Ukraine. Remember the point was to absorb Ukraine by installing their own people. That has failed. But no doubt they hope to regroup and to keep trying. If politically doesn't work, then militarily. This is what is occurring, over and over. The other side is working to dissuade them. Right now it's shuffling pieces on the board as a prelude to negotiations.

 

Russia knows it will never win hearts and minds. It tried to do that since 1989. Russia allowed Germany to re-unify. Russia helped the US to explore space. Shared intelligence with the US. Russia implemented western economic standards. Russia bent over backwards to be accepted at the table. And we know how that turned out. In 2008 the US revealed what it had planned all along, to extend NATO onto Russia's underbelly. I really don't think Russia is concerned about hearts and minds anymore.

 

Militarily, yes Russia can defeat the Ukraine with nuclear weapons. And we know the US would not, and could not, retaliate, lest it risk nuclear conflict itself.

 

You are right though that Russia does not want to do that. All Russia wants is a Russia friendly Ukraine, not a Western influenced Ukraine. Failing that, a Ukraine so weakened that it has no influence and the West's influence there will not matter. At least that is what it looks like for now, nobody can look into Putin's mind, but from his statements and actions that is the correct reading. He never intended to absorb Ukraine completely.

Edited August 10 by Cameroni

[NowNow]

8 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Russia knows it will never win hearts and minds. It tried to do that since 1989. Russia allowed Germany to re-unify. Russia helped the US to explore space. Shared intelligence with the US. Russia implemented western economic standards. Russia bent over backwards to be accepted at the table. And we know how that turned out. In 2008 the US revealed what it had planned all along, to extend NATO onto Russia's underbelly. I really don't think Russia is concerned about hearts and minds anymore.

 

Militarily, yes Russia can defeat the Ukraine with nuclear weapons. And we know the US would not, and could not, retaliate, lest it risk nuclear conflict itself.

 

You are right though that Russia does not want to do that. All Russia wants is a Russia friendly Ukraine, not a Western influenced Ukraine. Failing that, a Ukraine so weakened that it has no influence and the West's influence there will not matter. At least that is what it looks like for now, nobody can look into Putin's mind, but from his statements and actions that is the correct reading. He never intended to absorb Ukraine completely.

 

How can you make such a definitive statement, especially when the evidence points to otherwise?

Marching on Kiev and having their alternative President ready to install points to a Ukraine under their influence does it not? 

Once under their influence they are on the borders of Europe. It goes both ways. So from what evidence your definitive statement that they 'never intended to absorb Ukraine completely'?

I meant the hearts and minds of Ukrainians..

 

 

 

[Cameroni]

Just now, NowNow said:

 

How can you make such a definitive statement, especially when the evidence points to otherwise?

Marching on Kiev and having their alternative President ready to install points to a Ukraine under their influence does it not? 

Once under their influence they are on the borders of Europe. It goes both ways. So from what evidence your definitive statement that they 'never intended to absorb Ukraine completely'?

I meant the hearts and minds of Ukrainians..

 

 

 

 

Well, the hearts and minds of Ukrainians, that ship has sailed long ago now. Apart from the Russian Ukrainians who make up a sizeable number of Ukrainians.

 

It was funny to see how they translated school messages in Western schools into Ukrainian for Ukrainian refugees, only to find they do not speak Ukrainian, only Russian.

 

The convoy on Kiev never engaged Kiev properly and disappeared in a few days, it was most likely a decoy to confuse the enemy and bind troops there, while the Russians attacked elsewhere.

 

They never intended to absorb Ukraine, because you can see it by the evidence, where the fighting is contained. Had Putin really wanted to conquer all of the Ukraine he would not just have sent a decoy toward Kiev, but would really have attacked western Ukraine in a substantial manner, something which has not happened to date. Putin has allowed large parts of Ukraine to remain intact.

 

Naturally Russia wants a regime in Ukraine that is friendly toward Russia, but it can achieve that by means that do not resort to installing their own men.

[NowNow]

31 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, the hearts and minds of Ukrainians, that ship has sailed long ago now. Apart from the Russian Ukrainians who make up a sizeable number of Ukrainians.

 

It was funny to see how they translated school messages in Western schools into Ukrainian for Ukrainian refugees, only to find they do not speak Ukrainian, only Russian.

 

The convoy on Kiev never engaged Kiev properly and disappeared in a few days, it was most likely a decoy to confuse the enemy and bind troops there, while the Russians attacked elsewhere.

 

They never intended to absorb Ukraine, because you can see it by the evidence, where the fighting is contained. Had Putin really wanted to conquer all of the Ukraine he would not just have sent a decoy toward Kiev, but would really have attacked western Ukraine in a substantial manner, something which has not happened to date. Putin has allowed large parts of Ukraine to remain intact.

 

Naturally Russia wants a regime in Ukraine that is friendly toward Russia, but it can achieve that by means that do not resort to installing their own men.

 

Your whole post is a flight of fantasy.

Is there a reason why you decided to not address the statement that they had someone ready to install? There are at least some published articles discussing this BEFORE the invasion.

Where is your story published....apart from in this thread?

I'll ask you again....on what evidence? What I read above is a story that you've made up.

[Cameroni]

25 minutes ago, NowNow said:

 

Your whole post is a flight of fantasy.

Is there a reason why you decided to not address the statement that they had someone ready to install? There are at least some published articles discussing this BEFORE the invasion.

Where is your story published....apart from in this thread?

I'll ask you again....on what evidence? What I read above is a story that you've made up.

 

No it's  not a story. It's based on where the fighting took place. You just have to look at the facts. 

 

The reason the fighting is taking place in the Donbass region mostly is because that is the region Putin is interested in. And the reason large parts of Western Ukraine see no major fighting is that Putin has no interested to occupy all the Ukraine.

 

One only needs look at the economy of Russia, which is smaller than Texas, to realise why Putin is not interested in occupying all of Ukraine, because Russia does not have the capacity to do that.

[FritsSikkink]

On 8/9/2024 at 8:25 PM, TedG said:

Russia exposed itself as a paper tiger.  Their military is lame. 

Your comments are absurd, Russia has loads of nuclear weapons.

How did the USA do in Vietnam, Afghanistan?

[NowNow]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

No it's  not a story. It's based on where the fighting took place. You just have to look at the facts. 

 

The reason the fighting is taking place in the Donbass region mostly is because that is the region Putin is interested in. And the reason large parts of Western Ukraine see no major fighting is that Putin has no interested to occupy all the Ukraine.

 

One only needs look at the economy of Russia, which is smaller than Texas, to realise why Putin is not interested in occupying all of Ukraine, because Russia does not have the capacity to do that.

 

"It's based"...... that's a story. You based it on some assumptions that you call 'facts'. Whereas I read what was published in the Russian media within the first days on the invasion. Then when things didn't turn out as they hoped, those articles disappeared, suddenly.  They wrote that they had reversed the humiliation of 1991 and about Ukraine, Belarus and Russia together again. When you read what was written, it is clear they are not referring to the Donbass. They write about being back on the borders of Europe. Newspaper editorials deleted but still found on web archives.

Whereas your version is just a story that you have put together and decided was the truth.

 

Who is Viktor Medvedchuk, Putin’s main man in Ukraine? | Russia-Ukraine war News | Al Jazeera

 

You should understand...it's a game of Chess. All of the 'he said, she said' is just a distraction.

It's up to you if you want to put a story together that 'wraps it up' for you. 

Edited August 10 by NowNow

[Patong2021]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:08 PM, swissie said:

From day 1 it was clear that the Ukraine could not win this war. Period!

The only question remains is, will the Russians stop at the western Ukrainian border or will they travel unopposed thru Hungary straigtht to Austria. Straight into the "heart of Europe". Unopposed by Hungaria as the Hungarians will not shoot at Russians.

That is the only question that remains.

 

 

You misinterpret the Hungarians. Their position is not one of support for Russia, but more of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. After the collapse of the Austro Hungarian Empire Hungary lost some of its territory to Ukraine. It believes that the Carpathia region of western  Ukraine should be part of Hungary.  This is no secret. The right wing of Hungary has always made this claim and went so far as stating that if Russia was  victorious, that Hungary should then make a claim to Carpathia, which it expects that Russia would hand over if it wanted Hungary's support.  https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hungary-far-right-would-lay-claim-neighbouring-region-if-ukraine-loses-war-2024-01-28/#:~:text=BUDAPEST%2C Jan 28 (Reuters),leader said late on Saturday.

 

On 8/4/2024 at 7:03 PM, jas007 said:

The Russians have no intention of expanding the conflict.  They didn’t even want the current conflict, but they saw the expansion of NATO as an existential threat.  Putin has been saying as much for years, but the Western warmongers didn’t listen.  And so we have the narrative that Putin wants to reassemble the old Soviet Union.  That’s silly.  It’s a recipe for bankruptcy.  

 

This is an unsubstantiated "urban myth" that has been promoted by the Russian  propaganda machine. Russia was actively supporting violent  militias a decade before its invasion. On July 17, 2014 Malaysia Airlines flight 17,  a passenger airliner was shot down by a Russian backed militia using Russian supplied anti aircraft missiles and Russian supplied and manned radar. 298 non combatant  passengers were murdered. Russia refused to cooperate with the investigation.   Russia  invaded Ukraine in 2022. Almost 8 years of  militia sectarian attacks. Please do not  insult the intelligence of people by claiming the Russians did not want a conflict. They  were in it from the day their puppets were removed from government.

 

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Russia knows it will never win hearts and minds. It tried to do that since 1989. Russia allowed Germany to re-unify. Russia helped the US to explore space. Shared intelligence with the US. Russia implemented western economic standards. Russia bent over backwards to be accepted at the table. And we know how that turned out. In 2008 the US revealed what it had planned all along, to extend NATO onto Russia's underbelly. I really don't think Russia is concerned about hearts and minds anymore.

 

Militarily, yes Russia can defeat the Ukraine with nuclear weapons. And we know the US would not, and could not, retaliate, lest it risk nuclear conflict itself.

 

You are right though that Russia does not want to do that. All Russia wants is a Russia friendly Ukraine, not a Western influenced Ukraine. Failing that, a Ukraine so weakened that it has no influence and the West's influence there will not matter. At least that is what it looks like for now, nobody can look into Putin's mind, but from his statements and actions that is the correct reading. He never intended to absorb Ukraine completely.

 

You offer a revisionist interpretation of the period when the victims of Russian colonialism  broke the shackles of oppression and set themselves free. Germany reunified because that is what the German people wanted. They were fed up of having a wall with deadly mines and snipers who killed Germans who wanted to cross the border. They had watched the the other east European nations gain freedom and wanted their opportunity. It was impossible for Russia to stop  it from happening, unless  Russia did what it has done in Syria in propping up the cruel dictatorship of Assad,  and that is to have engaged in the wholesale slaughter of a civilian population. The legacy of Russia in the former East Germany is one of despair and gloom. The population has the long lasting multi generational damage common to  domestic abuse victims. Russia left a region that was a toxic chemical tragedy with poisoned soil, air and water. A region where children were encouraged to spy on their families and where the Stasi ruled supreme.

 

Russia doesn't care about a friendly Ukraine. it wants a subjugated vassal state, like Belarus. It wants the resources of Ukraine at the previous discounted price and it wants the Ukrainians to obey their Russian masters. The Ukrainians don't want to be the Russian puppet state. It's not as if the Russians have anything to offer.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

There is a human element to it all, for sure. Especially if Trump comes to power I would be quite concerned about what he does. Having said that, even he seems to be a rational person. And his military advisers surely are and would advise what it would mean to strike wth a nuclear missile at Russia, namely the death of hundreds of thousands of Americans and the destruction of entire US cities. Do you remember when Trump was playing word games with  China and that US general called China and assured them, no matter what happens America will not attack? 

 

I think the systems in place are now too rational, I can not see even the Necon lunatics being successful in unleashing war on Russia. America is like a bully, quick to kick around smaller nations, but when they know they can get a bloody nose themselves America pulls its tail in rather quickly. Even Tump did with North Korea.

That's a weird idea about Trump. On the one hand a large number of posters on here say he's bending over for Putin, and now you are saying that he might nuke Russia. Both sides can't be correct.

 

More likely he'll be the same as the first time and try sugar diplomacy, unlike the present lot of IMO warmongers that apparently see nothing wrong with dropping big bombs on thousands of women and children.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, NowNow said:

If you were in possession of the intelligence and knowledge that you described, you would know that their intention was to take over the whole of Ukraine, to bring it back into the fold so to speak. 

I thought the wheel fell of that myth long ago. The chances of Russia taking all of Ukraine then and now are IMO zero. We ain't talking about a tiny country- Ukraine is huge. Russia doesn't and didn't have a military capable of taking the whole thing, IMO. If you have some actual factual evidence that Putin thought he could have it all I'd like to see it.

 

Russians are well acquainted with guerrilla warfare, having done quite a bit of that during WW2, and they would know what would happen if they did actually try and take it all. The Germans, who had the best military in the world at that time were unable to take Ukraine/ Russia, and the Russian military is no where as good as the Germans were, which is why they use massed troops instead of tactics.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

The legacy of Russia in the former East Germany is one of despair and gloom.

Do you disregard the possibility of revenge? Russia lost by some accounts 40 million citizens to the Germans. I suspect it was more payback that anything else.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Russia doesn't care about a friendly Ukraine. it wants a subjugated vassal state, like Belarus. It wants the resources of Ukraine at the previous discounted price and it wants the Ukrainians to obey their Russian masters.

Obviously. That's what countries have been doing since countries existed. Why would Russia have to be different?

It's not as though the west hasn't been doing that same thing for a few centuries, is it?

Now tell us something we didn't know.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

No it's  not a story. It's based on where the fighting took place. You just have to look at the facts. 

 

The reason the fighting is taking place in the Donbass region mostly is because that is the region Putin is interested in. And the reason large parts of Western Ukraine see no major fighting is that Putin has no interested to occupy all the Ukraine.

 

One only needs look at the economy of Russia, which is smaller than Texas, to realise why Putin is not interested in occupying all of Ukraine, because Russia does not have the capacity to do that.

 

One only needs look at the economy of Russia, which is smaller than Texas, to realise why Putin is not interested in occupying all of Ukraine, because Russia does not have the capacity to do that.

 

It's good to be able to read a post not based in fantasy.

 

Western propaganda, IMO, is used to justify taking taxpayers money and wasting it in a far off land so the 1% can get even richer. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people believe the propaganda.

Edited August 11 by thaibeachlovers

[Gweiloman]

11 hours ago, NowNow said:

 

Have you posted any facts thus far? If not, then what about your intelligence and knowledge? Your opinion does not equate to fact simply due to you asserting that it is. The first thing that you wrote in this thread, the post to which I have posted a reply is so very obviously wrong. If you were in possession of the intelligence and knowledge that you described, you would know that their intention was to take over the whole of Ukraine, to bring it back into the fold so to speak. 

They just hoped to take it without a fight. Your statement with regard to demilitarisation is pure fiction.

 

If you think that it was Russia’s intention to take over the whole of Ukraine, you are completely mistaken, In order to do that, Russia would have had to assemble a force at least 10 times that of what they did. They would then have launched a “full scale” invasion instead of just a SMO. Russia wanted to reach a quick diplomatic and political agreement in which they almost succeeded. The facts bore this out.

 

This idea that Russia wanted to occupy all of Ukraine is just western propaganda. Some, without the necessary intelligence and knowledge, bought this.

[NowNow]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I thought the wheel fell of that myth long ago. The chances of Russia taking all of Ukraine then and now are IMO zero. We ain't talking about a tiny country- Ukraine is huge. Russia doesn't and didn't have a military capable of taking the whole thing, IMO. If you have some actual factual evidence that Putin thought he could have it all I'd like to see it.

 

Russians are well acquainted with guerrilla warfare, having done quite a bit of that during WW2, and they would know what would happen if they did actually try and take it all. The Germans, who had the best military in the world at that time were unable to take Ukraine/ Russia, and the Russian military is no where as good as the Germans were, which is why they use massed troops instead of tactics.

 

You are just babbling. They thought they would take Kiev and install their people. No need to conquer the whole country by force. That didn't work out.

You have NO IDEA about the reality, you just babble on in a one sided manner, day after day.  I'm just pointing out exactly what was published in the Russian media. No independent Ukraine. Get that into your skull and stop writing nonsense.

[NowNow]

9 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If you think that it was Russia’s intention to take over the whole of Ukraine, you are completely mistaken, In order to do that, Russia would have had to assemble a force at least 10 times that of what they did. They would then have launched a “full scale” invasion instead of just a SMO. Russia wanted to reach a quick diplomatic and political agreement in which they almost succeeded. The facts bore this out.

 

This idea that Russia wanted to occupy all of Ukraine is just western propaganda. Some, without the necessary intelligence and knowledge, bought this.

 

A quick diplomatic and political agreement by installing their own people? What kind of nonsense are you writing? The plan was to have Belarus and Ukraine under their wing.  That's it. What you are writing is just plain fantasy, willingly swallowed up by the gullible and the malicious..

They were proclaiming glory to Russia within the first two days, reversing the humiliation of 1991 and having UKraine back under their wing. To what diplomatic and political solution are you referring? Once they invaded, all bets were off.

Russia denies plotting to place puppet ruler in Ukraine as military build-up continues – The Irish Times Is that an example of Western propaganda or did it turn out to be the truth of what they planned?

There are none so blind....

Edited August 11 by NowNow