Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[tlcwaterfall]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It does sound like a lot of co-ordination and co-operation between the departments.

 

I suppose the test of your speculation will be

 

(a) When I go for my next extension in November, given the Thai tax year does not end until March 2025.

 

(b) whether I get issued a TTN by the RD, or get told it's not needed because I am a national that has a DTA with Thailand, OR I am below their radar as a pensioner.

 

Given I have plenty of documented pre-2024 savings, I am not really fussed. Just another layer of bureaucracy to keep the unemployment figure at 1%.

Do you mean tax returns are due by March 31 2025? I thought Thai tax year was from January 1 until December 31 each year.

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

Do you mean tax returns are due by March 31 2025? I thought Thai tax year was from January 1 until December 31 each year.

You are correct, the tax year ends 31 December. You have until 31 March to file a return for the previous year, 

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Last year the TRD scheduled a meeting with our son to discuss his compliance with collecting VAT on the sales at his chain of 4 restaurants.  The TRD had visited his restaurants on many days and observed the number of customers and from that estimated that he had underpaid the VAT due.  He said their estimate was reasonable.  He was able to negotiate a significant reduction in the amount they had assessed based on their estimate.  TRD was satisfied with the reduced payment.

 

The moral of the story is that TRD is not without the capability to do the work required to identify undeclared taxable revenue and they are open to reaching a compromise.

 

You're mixing things up. Corporate Tax is not related to Personal Income Tax, and managed by two distinct TRD services.

 

While corporate audits especially for VAT declared visible businesses with significant turnover are not uncommon nor new, there is no individual audit along with fines, except hearsay, to be reported (hence the vast majority of tax residents not paying tax).

[Lacessit]

22 minutes ago, tlcwaterfall said:

Do you mean tax returns are due by March 31 2025? I thought Thai tax year was from January 1 until December 31 each year.

Correct, the Thai tax year is the calendar year. Returns are due March 31, which can be extended to April 8 if done online.

[Yumthai]

25 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The fact that many Thai's don't follow the law is not relevant, they can't get kicked out of the country for not doing so.

Thais certainly can't get kicked out but potentially fined then jailed, yet they seem not to worry much.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Thais certainly can't get kicked out but potentially fined then jailed, yet they seem not to worry much.

Because they have little to lose in most cases, perhaps.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It does sound like a lot of co-ordination and co-operation between the departments.

 

I suppose the test of your speculation will be

 

(a) When I go for my next extension in November, given the Thai tax year does not end until March 2025.

 

(b) whether I get issued a TTN by the RD, or get told it's not needed because I am a national that has a DTA with Thailand, OR I am below their radar as a pensioner.

 

Given I have plenty of documented pre-2024 savings, I am not really fussed. Just another layer of bureaucracy to keep the unemployment figure at 1%.

Yeah, I am not realy converned yet as I have an LTR and protected by the DTA but, TIT and would definitely hate it if I needed to move!

[Yumthai]

32 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Because they have little to lose in most cases, perhaps.

Risking a stay in Thai jail is not what I call "little to lose", but it's obvious Thais evaluate individual tax enforcement risk to be very unlikely.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Risking a stay in Thai jail is not what I call "little to lose", but it's obvious Thais evaluate individual tax enforcement risk to be very unlikely.

Oh I don't know, two square meals a day, free health care and a break from the missus plus a lot of banter with the lads all day long, it beats working your butt off in the rice fields in the hot sun. :))

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, patman30 said:

Only if Mr Farang IS a tax resident (and funds are earned/acquired after Jan 2024)

 

Are you suggesting that if the funds, e.g. savings were earned before 2024, Mr Farang has no issue then, if he remits his money to Thailand after 2024 ?

 

4 hours ago, patman30 said:

Mr farang A lives in Thailand
Mr ferang B does not 
funds are remitted to Mr Ferang B's Thai bank account
who then buys everything for mr ferang A, as he is kind and generous

 

Trying to work that one out ?

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, patman30 said:

How much can you gift a non-related, non-tax resident?
(who then lets you use their ATM/debit card to buy you everything)

 

If the white powder made it's way to Thailand, regardless, it's taxable according to Thailand's revenue department.

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

Yeah, I am not realy converned yet as I have an LTR and protected by the DTA but, TIT and would definitely hate it if I needed to move!

 

Well, the DTA doesn't really "protect" you, it just means you're taxed in your home country, where tax is most likely considerably higher than in Thailand.

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

--some local tax professionals have expressed their opinions that ATM withdrawals and purchases made here with foreign bank cards likely would not be tracked by the Thai Revenue Department as sources of taxable remitted foreign income. But I don't believe there's any RD regulation thus far saying that or clarifying their stance on that general topic.

 

I think debate on this issue has lost sight of the reality regardless whether ATM withdrawals/foreign credit card purchases are taxable or traceable by the RD.The reality is that for the vast majority who believe using these methods is important for removing or significantly minimizing their Thai tax bill are by definition low earners who would have very little tax to pay anyway.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Are you suggesting that if the funds, e.g. savings were earned before 2024, Mr Farang has no issue them if he remits his money to Thailand after 2024 ?

 

Correct

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I think debate on this issue has lost sight of the reality regardless whether ATM withdrawals/foreign credit card purchases are taxable or traceable by the RD.The reality is that for the vast majority who believe using these methods is important for removing or significantly minimizing their Thai tax bill are by definition low earners who would have very little tax to pay anyway.

Taxable or traceable are two different subjects, 

 

- is it taxable? - I think so

- is active detection and traceability in place and or likely? - I think not

[4MyEgo]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Correct

 

Then I have nothing to worry about, no tax payable.

 

Do I need a Thai Tax Number ?

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Then I have nothing to worry about, no tax payable.

 

Do I need a Thai Tax Number ?

No, not if you don't have assessable income and are only remitting pre January 1 2024 savings.

[Cameroni]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Taxable or traceable are two different subjects, 

 

- is it taxable? - I think so

- is active detection and traceability in place and or likely? - I think not

 

In theory credit card payments can be traced, but I would agree that the likelihood of someone doing that in Thailand is slim to none.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Cameroni said:

 

In theory credit card payments can be traced, but I would agree that the likelihood of someone doing that in Thailand is slim to none.

In practise they are easily traceable.....Mastercard/Visa networks Thailand have copies of the transaction, as does the merchants bank, as does the central bank for forex purposes. Nobody is really interested however, unless its large scale evasion or fraud.

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

No, not if you don't have assessable income and are only remitting pre January 1 2024 savings.

 

Looks like I wasted a whole lot of time over nothing, but I learned something new, i.e. if you are living off of your savings from abroad, which were earned before 2024 and I remit money to Thailand annually, I pay zero tax, ever.

 

I like that, the savings are from the sale of my house (principal place of residence) 2017 and I remit a mil baht to live on every year, and can prove the sale with documentation, if ever asked.

[Rotweiler]

Has anyone actually stopped to consider that NONE of this applies to residents/tax paying citizens of countries with reciprocal agreements with Thailand?

[Cameroni]

1 minute ago, Rotweiler said:

Has anyone actually stopped to consider that NONE of this applies to residents/tax paying citizens of countries with reciprocal agreements with Thailand?

No, it does apply, the Thai authorities can audit you and you would have to prove that your income derives from sources covered in the DTA. I would not want to be in that position. 

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Looks like I wasted a whole lot of time over nothing, but I learned something new, i.e. if you are living off of your savings from abroad, which were earned before 2024 and I remit money to Thailand annually, I pay zero tax, ever.

 

I like that, the savings are from the sale of my house (principal place of residence) 2017 and I remit a mil baht to live on every year, and can prove the sale with documentation, if ever asked.

I think you are right and not to rain on your parade because I think 2017 is very safe. But there is a question as to when the sale proceeds of a capital asset such as a house, actually become savings and nobody seems to know. For example, if you sell your house in January and then remit the proceeds in February, are those considered savings? Probably not is the short answer, especially if the sale and the remittance are made in a year when you are Thai tax resident. If you weren't tax resident in the year of sale or remittance, the funds are not assessable.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Rotweiler said:

Has anyone actually stopped to consider that NONE of this applies to residents/tax paying citizens of countries with reciprocal agreements with Thailand?

That's not true, it's equally as relevant, the existence of a DTA doesn't negate tax, it merely restructures who the tax is paid to and at what rate

[Rotweiler]

Sigh.  Guess you didn't actually read the Tax Agreement(s).

[Rotweiler]

19 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

No, it does apply, the Thai authorities can audit you and you would have to prove that your income derives from sources covered in the DTA. I would not want to be in that position. 

 Yes and No.  It does NOT apply.  If you lied to them about the source of your transfer, then be it one you.  It will then apply.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, puck2 said:

Because the Thai system does not have something like a social system, I support the 2 children of my life partner including her grandchildren by at least 40.000THB per month. (we are not married). Both children have lost their jobs, because of the bad economic situation.

 

There are deductions for children, as well as for parental care, and insurance premiums for parents, but nothing like those amounts.

 

That might be considered a legitimate gift, even if you and the lady aren't married, if they aren't illegally funneling the money back to you.

 

 

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Taxable or traceable are two different subjects, 

 

- is it taxable? - I think so

- is active detection and traceability in place and or likely? - I think not

 

 

I was making a different point.In brief, anybody who has to resort to using ATMs or foreign credit cards in an attempt to minimize Thai tax is by definition a low earner.In which case there is no or very little tax to pay anyway.In other words it's not really worth it.

[gamb00ler]

49 minutes ago, Rotweiler said:

Has anyone actually stopped to consider that NONE of this applies to residents/tax paying citizens of countries with reciprocal agreements with Thailand?

It's not clear if by "residents" you mean people who have tax residency in a country other than Thailand and also don't have tax residency in Thailand.  I'm sure most posters know NONE of this applies to such persons.  Citizenship is generally given little weight when deciding if a person's income is taxable in a particular country.

[Cameroni]

43 minutes ago, Rotweiler said:

 Yes and No.  It does NOT apply.  If you lied to them about the source of your transfer, then be it one you.  It will then apply.

 

Looking at it strictly from a legal perspective, if you stay over 180 days and you transferred the money to Thailand it would apply. Now of course you can then argue that DTA applies, you'd have to prove it. Lying to them is generally a bad idea, as they have all the systems and manpower to check what you say is true, so unless you can lie and the evidence would support your lie, teling the truth is safer.