Taxation of foreighners in S/E Asia?

[Bday Prang]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:30 AM, KhunHeineken said:

Example:

 

A Honda dealer is selling a new Honda for  say 1 million baht. 

 

The Thai pays 1 million baht for it, and the foreigner pays 1 million baht for it.  No two tier pricing at the Honda dealer. 

 

However, the 1 million baht the foreigner remitted into Thailand MAY make up part of the foreigner's tax liability with the TRD between 1st Jan and 31st March the following year. 

 

Should that be the case, it's only logical to factor in that tax liability to the total cost of the vehicle for a foreigner, which then make the vehicle more expensive for the foreigner to buy than the Thai.  

 Rubbish ,  your example above  assumes that the Thai buying the 1 million baht car has not paid any tax on the money they earned to buy the car with !.   Theoretically both the foriegner and the Thai would have paid an Identical amount of tax

[chiang mai]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:17 PM, Cardano said:

Less than 15% actually, maybe they should get their own house in order first.

I stand corrected, a more recent article in the BP confirms that last year there was around 25% of tax returns filed:

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/24/2024 at 11:28 AM, Bday Prang said:

 Rubbish ,  your example above  assumes that the Thai buying the 1 million baht car has not paid any tax on the money they earned to buy the car with !.   Theoretically both the foriegner and the Thai would have paid an Identical amount of tax

Most Thai's live in the cash economy.  Do you agree?  Yes, or no.  Go on the record.

 

For example, that attractive bar girl with 5 "boyfriends" do you think she pays tax on what all 5 of them send her every month?

 

Another example, that government official on a 20,000 per month salary, but owns 3 houses, a shop, 2 cars, and has a "mia noi" on the side, do you think he is paying tax on his "supplementary income?" 

 

Wake up. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/23/2024 at 4:50 AM, ThaiPauly said:

Very good post

 

You have addressed this very well.it all makes sense

Thanks. 

 

It's not rocket science, though, is it? 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/22/2024 at 11:37 AM, Ralf001 said:

 

Tax on remittance is irrelevant.

 

Car cost same both Thai and Farnag.

I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/22/2024 at 11:16 AM, ukrules said:

Well not really, the Thai would have already paid his tax on the 1 million used to buy the car and the tax 'bands' are the same for everyone.

Explained in another post. 

 

Most Thai's live in the cash economy.  Do you agree?  Yes, or no?  Go on the record. 

 

if you agree, then you have contradicted yourself in your post.  If you disagree, the stats prove you wrong. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:12 AM, RupertIII said:

And don't forget that the PM under the last military coup dictated that western foreigners have to pay 3x for treatment at a Government hospital and 2x at a private hospital. For a 1 million baht treatment at a Govt hospital  and assuming a 35% tax rate that would cost a little in excess of 4.5 million!

I didn't know this, mainly because I am insured, however, it is not surprising. 

 

Since when did farang living in Thailand actually think they had even close to the same rights Thai's have?

 

A foreigner could live here, have a Thai wife, have two kids, a business, a house, a car, two motorbikes, a farm etc etc, but you will always only have a "permission" to stay which is just as good as the current 60 visa exemption stamp.  

[Bday Prang]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Most Thai's live in the cash economy.  Do you agree?  Yes, or no.  Go on the record.

 

For example, that attractive bar girl with 5 "boyfriends" do you think she pays tax on what all 5 of them send her every month?

 

Another example, that government official on a 20,000 per month salary, but owns 3 houses, a shop, 2 cars, and has a "mia noi" on the side, do you think he is paying tax on his "supplementary income?" 

 

Wake up. 

Nowhere in your example did you imply that the Thai customer  was either a bar girl with 5 sponsors , or a corrupt government official paying with the proceeds of corruption.      Do you agree ?  yes or no 

 

 I have no Idea how many Thais live in the cash economy  and neither do you,     Was the car in your example being paid for in cash ?   or have you not made that bit up yet? 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

5 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

Nowhere in your example did you imply that the Thai customer  was either a bar girl with 5 sponsors , or a corrupt government official paying with the proceeds of corruption.      Do you agree ?  yes or no 

 

 I have no Idea how many Thais live in the cash economy  and neither do you,     Was the car in your example being paid for in cash ?   or have you not made that bit up yet? 

 

 

A very small percentage of Thai's submit tax returns, so that makes for the majority of Thai's living in the cash economy.

 

To answer your question, not every Thai buying a car is a bar girl or a corrupt official.  Those examples were for illustration purposes.  However, do you agree that those examples pay no tax?  Yes or no?

 

If you don't know the stats for Thailand's cash economy, why refute it? 

 

Come back after you have done some research. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:37 AM, chiang mai said:

There is no tax on remittances if non-assessable funds are remitted, eg savings or tax exempt income.

I have touched on this point before. 

 

Whilst you are correct by the letter of the law, have you allowed for "TIT?" 

 

Would you be prepared to take on the establishment, in Court, or just pay a bill they throw at you?

 

Serious question, because that's maybe what it may be in 2025. 

[Bday Prang]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

A very small percentage of Thai's submit tax returns, so that makes for the majority of Thai's living in the cash economy.

 

To answer your question, not every Thai buying a car is a bar girl or a corrupt official.  Those examples were for illustration purposes.  However, do you agree that those examples pay no tax?  Yes or no?

 

If you don't know the stats for Thailand's cash economy, why refute it? 

 

Come back after you have done some research. 

millions of salaried people have their tax deducted at source and never need to file a tax return,  do you understand  that ? y/n

You use a bargirl and a corrupt gov official as typical examples of people buying million baht cars yet  only mention their assumed  occupations later   agreed y/n 

You claim to know all the details of the "cash economy"  despite it being by nature rather secretive  y/n 

 

 Tellingly,  in another of your increasingly bizarre posts,  which you have now edited out , you claimed to be ex SAS     enough said.   

   You are full of it pal

 

[Bday Prang]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have touched on this point before. 

 

Whilst you are correct by the letter of the law, have you allowed for "TIT?" 

 

Would you be prepared to take on the establishment, in Court, or just pay a bill they throw at you?

 

Serious question, because that's maybe what it may be in 2025. 

I bet you are the life and sole of every party,   are you free next friday?  they are planning a party at our local hospice and are looking for a cheap comedian , I'll advise them not to pay you in cash as you will probably declare it and report them

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

millions of salaried people have their tax deducted at source and never need to file a tax return,  do you understand  that ? y/n

You use a bargirl and a corrupt gov official as typical examples of people buying million baht cars yet  only mention their assumed  occupations later   agreed y/n 

You claim to know all the details of the "cash economy"  despite it being by nature rather secretive  y/n 

 

 Tellingly,  in another of your increasingly bizarre posts,  which you have now edited out , you claimed to be ex SAS     enough said.   

   You are full of it pal

 

Clearly, the ex SAS post was a joke.  I did put an emoji. 

 

You are hiding behind Thai's for a tax that is more easily targeted at you.  I have no idea why you feel safety in doing so. 

 

Since when did you every think, even for just 1 minute, you had the same rights, privileges and freedoms as Thai's?  This forms the basis of your argument, and it's ridiculous. 

 

You are a 1 year tourists, like the rest of us.  Your retirement visa / extension gives you ZERO more rights than someone flying into Thailand for their first time on a holiday on a 60 visa exemption stamp. 

 

Happy to hear what you can do on a retirement visa that they can't do on a visa exemption stamp. 

 

Deal with your own personal tax liability, as a farang, within the Thai laws, because you will NEVER have the same rights, privileges and freedoms as a Thai. 

 

The money you remit to Thailand is going to be "taxed" in one way or another, either in 2025, or eventually.  The writing is on the wall. 

 

When you pay that tax, EVERYTHING in Thailand has become more expensive then when you didn't have to pay ANY tax.  Yes, I know, rocket science. 

[KhunHeineken]

27 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

I bet you are the life and sole of every party,   are you free next friday?  they are planning a party at our local hospice and are looking for a cheap comedian , I'll advise them not to pay you in cash as you will probably declare it and report them

Fail. 

 

That's that's the poorest troll / baiting / personal attack I have ever read. 

 

Try harder next time. 

 

                

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have touched on this point before. 

 

Whilst you are correct by the letter of the law, have you allowed for "TIT?" 

 

Would you be prepared to take on the establishment, in Court, or just pay a bill they throw at you?

 

Serious question, because that's maybe what it may be in 2025. 

You're into the area of extreme what ifs. What if I remitted savings and they claimed it was income and demanded it be taxed? Well, the onus with taxation, the burden of proof, is always on the taxpayer to prove what they declared is true and correct. It's the duty of the Revenue Department to accept that proof or demonstrate it is false. if taxpayers  can't provide proof  then yes, they could be taxed. The short answer to the question is, make sure you have your evidence and proof.

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You're into the area of extreme what ifs. What if I remitted savings and they claimed it was income and demanded it be taxed? Well, the onus with taxation, the burden of proof, is always on the taxpayer to prove what they declared is true and correct. It's the duty of the Revenue Department to accept that proof or demonstrate it is false. if taxpayers  can't provide proof  then yes, they could be taxed. The short answer to the question is, make sure you have your evidence and proof.

The whole discussion is about the ifs and buts.  We all don't know what will happen after the 1st January 2025.  No harm in discussing all possibilities. 

 

It's the Thai way to make a scapegoat of the first person that goes against the system.  Do you have the moral and ethical fortitude, and the financial means, to take the TRD on in a Thai Court, whilst hoping for a fair hearing, with the eyes of the world watching, or will you just shut up, pay what they say you should pay, and go along like a good farang?  

 

Who's willing to risk it all and be the test case for all farang going forward? 

 

Are you up for it, CM?  No, I didn't think so. 

 

[chiang mai]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

The whole discussion is about the ifs and buts.  We all don't know what will happen after the 1st January 2025.  No harm in discussing all possibilities. 

 

It's the Thai way to make a scapegoat of the first person that goes against the system.  Do you have the moral and ethical fortitude, and the financial means, to take the TRD on in a Thai Court, whilst hoping for a fair hearing, with the eyes of the world watching, or will you just shut up, pay what they say you should pay, and go along like a good farang?  

 

Who's willing to risk it all and be the test case for all farang going forward? 

 

Are you up for it, CM?  No, I didn't think so. 

 

I've filed taxes here without a problem for almost a decade. I've declared current year income and I've informed the TRD about exempt income and I've paid tax some years. I've not had a problem. So you ask me if I'm willing to be the first.....I did that years ago. Personally, I think you're scaremongering.

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I've filed taxes here without a problem for almost a decade. I've declared current year income and I've informed the TRD about exempt income and I've paid tax some years. I've not had a problem. So you ask me if I'm willing to be the first.....I did that years ago. Personally, I think you're scaremongering.

Do you think your personal circumstances are indicative of the majority of expats living here? 

 

How many expats have ever paid a baht of tax in Thailand before?  How many expats have filed a tax return in the past? 

 

Not scaremongering.  If the TRD tell them they have to pay "X" amount, how many of them do you think have the courage, and financial means, to appeal, all the way to a Thai Court, to have pre 2024 "savings" recognized as being non taxable, for example?  

 

I am suggesting people will just shut up and pay up. 

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Do you think your personal circumstances are indicative of the majority of expats living here? 

 

How many expats have ever paid a baht of tax in Thailand before?  How many expats have filed a tax return in the past? 

 

Not scaremongering.  If the TRD tell them they have to pay "X" amount, how many of them do you think have the courage, and financial means, to appeal, all the way to a Thai Court, to have pre 2024 "savings" recognized as being non taxable, for example?  

 

I am suggesting people will just shut up and pay up. 

There is a multi stage appeals process (below) that is dedicated to the Revenue. If anyone claiming to have non taxable savings, can't get that fact recognised within that process, they probably aren't non-taxable savings.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37746.html

[Bday Prang]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Clearly, the ex SAS post was a joke.  I did put an emoji. 

 

You are hiding behind Thai's for a tax that is more easily targeted at you.  I have no idea why you feel safety in doing so. 

 

Since when did you every think, even for just 1 minute, you had the same rights, privileges and freedoms as Thai's?  This forms the basis of your argument, and it's ridiculous. 

 

You are a 1 year tourists, like the rest of us.  Your retirement visa / extension gives you ZERO more rights than someone flying into Thailand for their first time on a holiday on a 60 visa exemption stamp. 

 

Happy to hear what you can do on a retirement visa that they can't do on a visa exemption stamp. 

 

Deal with your own personal tax liability, as a farang, within the Thai laws, because you will NEVER have the same rights, privileges and freedoms as a Thai. 

 

The money you remit to Thailand is going to be "taxed" in one way or another, either in 2025, or eventually.  The writing is on the wall. 

 

When you pay that tax, EVERYTHING in Thailand has become more expensive then when you didn't have to pay ANY tax.  Yes, I know, rocket science. 

     I'm not hiding behind anybody and have never been under the impression that I have the same rights as Thais, I seriously doubt anybody thinks they will be treated equally . yet you seem obesssed that people might feel that way, you have mentioned it repeatedly   twice in the post above.  

     The rest of your post appears to be the work of somebody with an over active imagination .

      I am not a one year tourist "like the rest of you"   nether do I have a retirement visa / extension 

      I have no idea what you were  referring to when you  when you wrote      "happy to hear what you can do on a retirement visa  that they can't do on a visa exemption stamp"     as I have never mentioned "retirement visas" or "exemption stamps"  so can't refer to  anything I have written, are you becomming more "confused"

      Any  money I remit to Thailand  this year  will not be taxed in 2025, I can certainly guarantee that

      You really should stop posting rubbish based on innacurate assunptions.     

      When one pays tax  NOTHING  "becomes more expensive"      the price of everthing stays exactly the same .        

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

Any  money I remit to Thailand  this year  will not be taxed in 2025, I can certainly guarantee that

Are you, or will you be, a tax resident of Thailand in 2024? 

 

That means, will you stay inside Thailand more than 180 days in the 2024 calendar year?  If so, how can you make such a guarantee?  If not, you are not really an expat, are you?

 

18 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

When one pays tax  NOTHING  "becomes more expensive"      the price of everthing stays exactly the same . 

Depends on whether or not you will be taxed by Thailand in 2025. 

 

Need more information on the above question first, but should one be taxed on bringing in a lump sum to buy a car, and that money will be taxed in 2025, the car has costed them more.  Simple as that.

 

However, I see you are now back flipping saying you will be paying no tax next year.  If you are a non resident of Thailand for tax purposes, then I agree, but if you are a tax resident, which is the point being discussed, and your remitted funds taxed next year, then I disagree. 

 

The money needed to buy the car attracts tax, thus making the car purchase more expensive, not at the point of sale, but at a later point in time.

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, chiang mai said:

There is a multi stage appeals process (below) that is dedicated to the Revenue. If anyone claiming to have non taxable savings, can't get that fact recognised within that process, they probably aren't non-taxable savings.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37746.html

I would like to see what the Thai government does to the first farang to take them to Court over it.

 

You never answered the question, would you be willing to do it? 

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I would like to see what the Thai government does to the first farang to take them to Court over it.

 

You never answered the question, would you be willing to do it? 

Yes, if I had the proof I needed

[KhunHeineken]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Yes, if I had the proof I needed

Sure you would. 

[chiang mai]

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Sure you would. 

Why even bother demanding an answer to the question in the first place, if you were only going to believe the answer you wanted! Ignore list, now, parole hearing in one year. Bye

[KhunHeineken]

On 8/27/2024 at 5:24 AM, chiang mai said:

Why even bother demanding an answer to the question in the first place, if you were only going to believe the answer you wanted! Ignore list, now, parole hearing in one year. Bye

I simply don't believe you would, and I suspect many others are the same. 

 

Even if you won your case, which I highly doubt, due to the corruption and dislike for foreigners here, you don't get your extension next year, and have to leave.  No reason given.  You have no rights to stay here anyway.  Would you appeal that also?  

 

You can post on here all your knowledge of western country tax law, but as someone on nothing more than a 12 month tourist visa, taking on the establishment is something that would come with consequences, win, lose, or draw. 

 

Only someone with a lot of money to burn, and who has also given up on Thailand, would try such a thing, and even then, what's the point, you are leaving anyway? 

[sometimewoodworker]

15 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I simply don't believe you would, and I suspect many others are the same. 

 

Even if you won your case, which I highly doubt, due to the corruption and dislike for foreigners here, you don't get your extension next year, and have to leave.  No reason given.  You have no rights to stay here anyway.  Would you appeal that also?  

Your xenophobia is really raging! 
 

You seem to have little to no knowledge of the Thai legal system. There are numerous examples of people going to the court system and being impartially judged by the courts. There are no normal cases that have been reported where there was corruption involved in the court.

There are certainly numerous cases where pretty pieces of paper avoided going to court but once in the court it is reportedly scrupulously fair.

 

For sure if you have millions of dollars to throw into the fight you are likely to have a good outcome, the majority don’t and can rely on the objectivity of the justices.

[KhunHeineken]

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Your xenophobia is really raging! 

Is it? 

 

Does your country offer a reasonable pathway to permanent residency and citizenship?  My country does.  Thailand doesn't.  So, who really is xenophobic? 

 

As I have said before, you could have a wife, two kids, a house, a condo, 2 cars, 2 motorbikes, and a business, but you have ZERO more rights than someone flying in on a 60 day visa exemption stamp.  

 

No raging here.  I have nothing I couldn't leave behind and head straight to the airport within the hour, if I had to, or needed to.  That's by design.  Thailand is not the be all and end all for me.  

 

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You seem to have little to no knowledge of the Thai legal system.

I know it's terribly corrupt.  Do you agree, or disagree?  Go on the record.  

 

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are numerous examples of people going to the court system and being impartially judged by the courts.

And even more examples of unjust outcomes.

 

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are no normal cases that have been reported where there was corruption involved in the court.

What's your definition of a "normal" case?  Isn't a "case" a "case?"  The fact that you say "normal case" show's you know the judicial system here is "abnormal."  

 

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There are certainly numerous cases where pretty pieces of paper avoided going to court but once in the court it is reportedly scrupulously fair.

Certainly numerous cases where people have been screwed by the system as well.  

 

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

For sure if you have millions of dollars to throw into the fight you are likely to have a good outcome, the majority don’t and can rely on the objectivity of the justices.

It would be a foreigner, as a test case, taking on the Thai government.  At stake is billions of baht revenue, FOREVER.  Seriously, who do you think will win, and even if the foreigner wins, they change the law for the next tax year.  Simple.  

 

Your naivety is really raging now.  Do try to remember where you are living.