Wife transfers from dependent visa to Retirement Visa in case I pass away before her.

[LivingNThailand]

I am living in Thailand on a retirement visa and my wife is with me as my dependent.  I am wondering what the immigration procedures are for my wife if I pass away. I don't expect anything to happen to me soon but I am a planner and would like to know what she would expect and to make it seamless for her to transfer to a retirement visa.  No surprises.

 

Financial details are:   I have a savings account with 800,000+ THB (no ATM card).  My wife has a savings account with an ATM card that we use for day to day living.  We have a 3rd joint savings account with ATM card that we top off about every 6 months and "park" our money until we use it (budgeted monthly).  All money is available through internet banking and can be transferred around.

We are both US Citizens and have a non-O visa issued in Penang 9 years ago.

 

That should be enough details, but please ask if you need more.
 

Also, I have a neighbor whose husband is in dire straights right now (different nationality) and it would be nice to know the procedures if she needs some help, which she may soon.

 

Thank you in advance for any information you can assist me with on how my wife can handle this situation with immigration if it arrives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zzzzz]

she would need move your 800,000 to her account an get her own Extension 
simple
BUT than again, ur immigration could make a big deal of it an force her to exit, get  a new Non O and than the extension as her visa/extension are issued cause of  visa your/extension. 

wont know till it happens 🙂

[DrJack54]

OP, assume that your wife entered with a non O visa.

I would chat with your immigration office to ask if she can change extension based on dependant to based on retirement.

She would also need 800k in Thai bank account in her name only. 

 

Fall back option (when things happen suddenly) is to exit Thailand and reenter visa exempt (border bounce) 

From VE it isn't difficult to obtain non O retirement and subsequent 12 month extensions

Here is thread that outlines process.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311886-visa-exempt-to-retirement-extension-process-and-cost/

 

[LivingNThailand]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, assume that your wife entered with a non O visa.

I would chat with your immigration office to ask if she can change extension based on dependant to based on retirement.

She would also need 800k in Thai bank account in her name only. 

No problem transferring the money right away.  Yes, non O visa, both of us.  I guess it is up to the immigration office at the time.  I was hoping there was some standard procedure so I wouldn't worry.  If she goes in within a few weeks it would be okay.  I'm told I overthink.   Just trying to do good.  Thanks.

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, LivingNThailand said:

If she goes in within a few weeks it would be okay.  I'm told I overthink.   Just trying to do good.

You are not over thinking rather just good planning. 

The other thing you should consider is access to your bank account (also the friend you mentioned).

 

Personally I'm in process of changing from money in bank to income method for extensions based on retirement.

Reason being for my long term partner (not married) to have instant access to money. 

All expats need to forward plan. 

[LivingNThailand]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

You are not over thinking rather just good planning. 

The other thing you should consider is access to your bank account (also the friend you mentioned).

 

Personally I'm in process of changing from money in bank to income method for extensions based on retirement.

Reason being for my long term partner (not married) to have instant access to money. 

All expats need to forward plan. 

Money shouldn't be a problem, that's all set up.  It was the immigration side I was worried about.  Red tape, timing, etc.  We have a good track record so I don't think a problem....just have to go with the flow I guess.  Thank you for your help.

[zzzzz]

2 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, assume that your wife entered with a non O visa.

I would chat with your immigration office to ask if she can change extension based on dependant to based on retirement.

She would also need 800k in Thai bank account in her name only. 

 

Fall back option (when things happen suddenly) is to exit Thailand and reenter visa exempt (border bounce) 

From VE it isn't difficult to obtain non O retirement and subsequent 12 month extensions

Here is thread that outlines process.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1311886-visa-exempt-to-retirement-extension-process-and-cost/

 

as she will have the 800,000 in the bank, ( once she gets his $$ an puts it in her account)  just get the  non o in Cambodia or laos
no reason not to.
 

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, zzzzz said:

as she will have the 800,000 in the bank, ( once she gets his $$ an puts it in her account)  just get the  non o in Cambodia or laos
no reason not to.
 

The 800k in his account would take time to access. 

Also no need to obtain non O in Thai consulate/embassy.

She could border bounce and with visa exempt entry obtain non O retirement at her local immigration office.

I posted a link earlier that outlines the process

[bigt3116]

Check with your immigration office, similar scenario is if your Thai wife dies and you are on an extension based on marriage, most offices will let you stay on that extension and then find a new way to stay when it expires.

 

I can think of no reason why on your demise immigration would not let your wife just change the reason for her extension from dependent to retirement.

[JimGant]

23 hours ago, LivingNThailand said:

No problem transferring the money right away

Yeah, with online banking -- have her do it fast, in case the bank finds out about your death and freezes your account (thereby she'll have to rely on a many-month probate process). Supposedly, she's supposed to go the probate route. But, especially if she's the sole beneficiary in your Wiil, there's no aggrieved party to press charges.

 

Another thing you might do is make her co-signatory on your account. This doesn't mean it's joint, so there's no affect with immigration. But, it allows her to access your account, so if you're terminal, she can tap your account perfectly legally. And, if you're dead -- where, supposedly, co-signatory status is no longer in effect -- this erstwhile status just adds further credence to her bonafides, along with her being sole beneficiary in you Will. Only the lawyer mafia, out a probate fee, will be concerned. Too bad.

[LivingNThailand]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, with online banking -- have her do it fast, in case the bank finds out about your death and freezes your account

Yeah, she's fast.  😂  Does all the online banking stuff.  I don't think there is a problem.  Actually told yet another older retired couple in our neighborhood to open an account in the wife's name because you have to transfer "fast".  The wife said it sounded so mean.    Mean, Schmean.   800,000 THB is nothing to sneeze at.  Thanks for the advice.  will look into that co-sign things 

 

[DrJack54]

20 minutes ago, LivingNThailand said:

   800,000 THB is nothing to sneeze at.  Thanks for the advice.  will look into that co-sign things 

This topic comes up often in finance,banking forum.

Here is just one thread with some opinions.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1317531-800000-baht-account-after-i-die-can-the-partner-access-the-account/

 

This is the reason why I'm changing from money in bank method to income method.

Basically very little funds in my bank account.

As soon a money transfer hits my account it goes out into partners account for living expenses.

 

[LivingNThailand]

28 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

This topic comes up often in finance,banking forum.

Here is just one thread with some opinions.

Thank you.  I just read one of the six pages of comments in the link (and will read them later).   One option is to immediately transfer 800,000 THB from the USA into her account and then slowly over a few weeks take out the money out of my immigration account via internet banking and put the money in the joint account.  I don't know why the bank would be notified of my death?  Do they do that here?  In the USA Social Security is notified by the funeral home almost immediately.

Several years ago the bank manager at our branch practically told us in the case of death to transfer the money out of the immigration account pretty quickly.   Leave a few thousand baht in the account to keep it active.  She said, just don't tell me what you are doing, I don't want to know.

One of the comments in the link you sent me is that in the USA one of the first things you do is get into the safety deposit box and take out the money, etc. before anyone finds out.  I had a friend that did that and walked out with a couple of backpacks of money. A relative of mine busted a hole in her mother's kitchen wall and took out the money....true story.  😅  

 

 

[LivingNThailand]

8 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

I can think of no reason why on your demise immigration would not let your wife just change the reason for her extension from dependent to retirement.

That's what I thought.  They aren't entirely ogres there.   I mean, this situation must come up many times throughout the year, I would think.  I was trying to find out if there is a standard procedure, but I was dreaming....hahah

[JimGant]

17 minutes ago, LivingNThailand said:

then slowly over a few weeks take out the money out of my immigration account via internet banking and put the money in the joint account.  I don't know why the bank would be notified of my death? 

If you read that referenced thread, you'll see that there have been situations where (confused) bank managers have frozen joint accounts. So, maybe best to transfer to her personal account. And, yeah, the bank has no avenue to ever hear of your death -- embassy, hospital, wat, whatever -- no legal requirement to notify your bank -- not that they would ever know what that bank is....

[LivingNThailand]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

If you read that referenced thread, you'll see that there have been situations where (confused) bank managers have frozen joint accounts. So, maybe best to transfer to her personal account.

good idea.   As the branch manager said to me, I just don't want to know.

 

[DrJack54]

7 hours ago, JimGant said:

. And, yeah, the bank has no avenue to ever hear of your death -- embassy, hospital, wat, whatever -- no legal requirement to notify your bank -- not that they would ever know what that bank is.

Very poor illegal advice. 

Do some research on the topic. 

[Liquorice]

Having helped with the aftermath of a few foreigners deaths in previous years, under Thai law the Thai spouse is legally entitled to your estate.
There is no probate unless someone challenged the spouse.
It takes approx 4 weeks to obtain a court order to release the funds, but you are perfectly correct that banks advise in the event of death if you can access the funds, do so.
There is no comeback in the case of a spouse doing this.

 

The legal issue in your case is your wife is not Thai, although I suspect under US law she is automatically entitled to your assets.

 

I'm also a planner.
You can make a Will, and you can also add your wife to your accounts as a co-signature.
That gives your wife the authority to withdraw/transfer funds perfectly legally, whether you're dead or alive.
You do this via a power of attorney form at the bank.
Your wife's name does not appear on any statements or letters for that account that you use for Immigration.
Her signature appears in the back of the book, but can only be seen under UV light.

Edited September 16 by Liquorice

[Liquorice]

I should add in the event of a foreigner's death, the hospital notifies the police, who are then supposed to notify Immigration and your Embassy.
They do not notify any banks.

 

For a foreigner to be buried or cremated in Thailand, the Wat requires permission from your Embassy.
The Embassy will first contact family to gain permission to issue the authority for the Wat to proceed.

Edited September 16 by Liquorice

[LivingNThailand]

10 hours ago, Liquorice said:

I should add in the event of a foreigner's death, the hospital notifies the police, who are then supposed to notify Immigration and your Embassy.
They do not notify any banks.

 

Thank you for your two responses.  Do you happen to know if I can do the power of attorney form at any branch?    Bangkok Bank.   

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, LivingNThailand said:

Thank you for your two responses.  Do you happen to know if I can do the power of attorney form at any branch?    Bangkok Bank.   

Our accounts are with Bangkok bank.
Added my spouse to both my Savings and FTD accounts.
In the case of my Savings account, BKK issued an additional debit card for her with her own PIN.

 

In hindsight, she didn't really need that debit card as she has her own accounts and I pay the additional 200 BHT per annum for the additional card, and she knows the PIN for my card anyway, but it's an option.
Be clear you don't want a joint account, just to add her as a co-signature to your account.
 

Edited September 17 by Liquorice

[Liverpool Lou]

22 hours ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, with online banking -- have her do it fast, in case the bank finds out about your death and freezes your account (thereby she'll have to rely on a many-month probate process). Supposedly, she's supposed to go the probate route. But, especially if she's the sole beneficiary in your Wiil, there's no aggrieved party to press charges.

Never a great idea to encourage people to act illegally via theft and fraudulent activity.  Who says that there would ne no aggrieved party to contest?   Just because a will has a sole beneficiary doesn't mean that it cannot be challenged by third parties who believe that they have an interest in the estate.

[Liverpool Lou]

20 hours ago, LivingNThailand said:

I don't know why the bank would be notified of my death?  Do they do that here?

How else do third parties access a deceased persons bank account legally?   Police have to be informed of your death as does your embassy, that's when financial matters can come to the surface.  In order for a third party (your widow) to access someone else's account (yours) the theory is that your bank has to be informed of your death otherwise her actions are theft and fraud.

[Liverpool Lou]

20 hours ago, LivingNThailand said:

Several years ago the bank manager at our branch practically told us in the case of death to transfer the money out of the immigration account pretty quickly.   Leave a few thousand baht in the account to keep it active.  She said, just don't tell me what you are doing, I don't want to know.

"She said, just don't tell me what you are doing, I don't want to know".

Yes, she said that, obviously, because her advice and your actions would be illegal, something in which she does not want to be complicit!

[Liverpool Lou]

12 hours ago, Liquorice said:

You do this via a power of attorney form at the bank.

Powers of attorney cease immediately on the death of the donor.

[JimGant]

14 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Very poor illegal advice. 

Do some research on the topic

Not advice, but an observation.

Sounds like you have done research  concerning the legal requirement for somebody -- police, hospital, embassy, whomever -- to ferret out where you bank and then notify this bank(s) of your death.

Could you please share this information? Thanx.

[DrJack54]

25 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Could you please share this information?

Many threads in Finance, Banking forum.

Here is just one example...

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1317531-800000-baht-account-after-i-die-can-the-partner-access-the-account/ 

 

Even more for those in de facto relationship (means nothing in Thailand) 

As I've mentioned elsewhere moving to income method instead of money in bank is one solution.

Even moreso for folk on extensions retirement.

Some of maintain 800k all year round. 

My partner has my card and pin.

She could probably clean out my account after my passing and perhaps without repercussions.

Is it legal= No

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"She said, just don't tell me what you are doing, I don't want to know".

Yes, she said that, obviously, because her advice and your actions would be illegal, something in which she does not want to be complicit!

Actually, this is almost verbatim what our Bangkok Bank branch manager told us several years ago. Her explanation was: If a bank does not know of your death, they have no legal responsibility to freeze your account -- and withdrawals, per usual, can occur.

 

Wife has already been told to withdraw most of my funds (leaving small amount, and account open) soonest -- even before my barbecue.

 

 

 

 

[LivingNThailand]

30 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, this is almost verbatim what our Bangkok Bank branch manager told us several years ago. Her explanation was: If a bank does not know of your death, they have no legal responsibility to freeze your account -- and withdrawals, per usual, can occur.

 

Wife has already been told to withdraw most of my funds (leaving small amount, and account open) soonest -- even before my barbecue.

Actually, this post started as a question about immigration procedures and policies and ended up talking all about the money.   Any other ideas about immigration?   Or is it a mixed bag depending on the mood of the immigration office the day you show up? 

Anyway, interesting comments.

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

In order for a third party (your widow) to access someone else's account (yours) the theory is that your bank has to be informed of your death otherwise her actions are theft and fraud.

Not in the case when it's your legally entitled spouse if you gave them access.