Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Yumthai]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If I live in Bangkok and remit overseas funds to pay my rent, later I stop remitting funds and charge my rent to my UK Barclaycard and reduce my annual remittances by a corresponding amount, I just committed tax evasion, if I didn't declare the charges.

Borrowing money to pay your rent is tax evasion if using a credit card but it would be ok if a relative lends you money?

[chiang mai]

99% of what is currently understood by members about Thai tax rules must be regarded as unconfirmed on that basis because none of the code refers specifically to foreigners.....a stupid word game that has no place here.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Borrowing money to pay your rent is tax evasion if using a credit card but it would be ok if a relative lends you money?

The cc transaction was made in Thailand, the relatives gift or loan to you was not. When you charged your rent to your cc in Thailand, you entered into a contract with the Thai landlord and your cc company.

 

Later, I'm now out and about 

[chiang mai]

And before someone goes there, it goes without saying that all of this is subject to the funds used to pay the cc bill, being assessable.

[Yumthai]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The cc transaction was made in Thailand, the relatives gift or loan to you was not. When you charged your rent to your cc in Thailand, you entered into a contract with the Thai landlord and your cc company.

 

The loan could be from a third-party in Thailand, rent could even been paid directly to the landlord by someone else. I know people in Thailand mainly locals who have their rent directly paid by their parents/relatives/friends/boss.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

The loan could be from a third-party in Thailand, rent could even been paid directly to the landlord by someone else. I know people in Thailand mainly locals who have their rent directly paid by their parents/relatives/friends/boss.

You are no longer discussing the assessability of cc transaction and are instead exploring ways to evade tax.

[Yumthai]

Just now, chiang mai said:

You are no longer discussing the assessability of cc transaction and are instead exploring ways to evade tax.

I'm just commenting on you rent example about what's happening in the reality.

 

To me, a credit card bill remains a loan, then not assessable, as long as it is not refunded with assessable income.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I'm just commenting on you rent example about what's happening in the reality.

 

To me, a credit card bill remains a loan, then not assessable, as long as it is not refunded with assessable income.

And if it is funded with assessable income?

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

And if it is funded with assessable income?

IMO It's assessable if funded with assessable income within the same tax year.

[JimGant]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The cc transaction was made in Thailand, the relatives gift or loan to you was not.

So what? The landlord received his money in both cases -- in one case, he was paid with a loan from the bank to the tenant; in the other, he was paid by a loan from a relative to the tenant. The TRD only wants to know the source of that cash flow, not how it ends up. And both of these situations are loans.  And by the way -- revolving credit is still a loan: Revolving credit lets you borrow money up to a maximum credit limit, pay it back over time and borrow again as needed. If, as you say, it is not a loan -- then what is it? Certainly not assessable income.

 

Not sure how you differentiate between borrowing money from my bank to buy a cheeseburger, using my Visa credit card -- and borrowing money from the same bank, to send to Thailand to buy a condo....

 

Having said that, using a debit card, like an ATM card, is a direct pull from your financial institution, and thus may be assessable income, depending on the source of those monies in your financial account. Thus, debit cards are certainly different from credit cards, or should be, in the eyes of the TRD.

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

IMO It's assessable if funded with assessable income within the same tax year.

Don't know what bearing current year has but also don't know what point you're debating since that is what I have said from the outset

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

And if it is funded with assessable income?

What if I take out a 30 year loan and send it to Thailand to buy a condo. And I pay it back the next 30 years using monies that, if remitted to Thailand, would be assessable. But they're not remitted. Are you implying that that remitted loan to Thailand is actually assessable income, 'cause it will eventually be paid back by monies that should be considered ersatz remitted assessable income?

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

2 hours ago, Yumthai said:

IMO It's assessable if funded with assessable income within the same tax year.

Don't know what bearing current year has but also don't know what point you're debating since that is what I have said from the outset

You're right, all these unrealistic theories make me confused.

Practically, I believe foreign CC audits on regular tax residents won't be performed although technically but laboriously possible.

[Lorry]

Logic sides with @JimGant

The statements of the TRD in the embassy videos  side with @chiang mai, the sniff test, too.

This is the 27th time we discuss this,  nothing new here.

 

Related: buying stuff from iHerb, paying with my foreign CC, and have it sent to Thailand - is this a taxable remittance? I would say no, anybody disagrees?

[Lorry]

Is the 190,000 B allowance for people over 65 applicable already for the tax year in which you turn 65? 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Lorry said:

Logic sides with @JimGant

The statements of the TRD in the embassy videos  side with @chiang mai

This is the 27th time we discuss this,  nothing new here.

 

Related: buying stuff from iHerb, paying with my foreign CC, and have it sent to Thailand - is this a taxable remittance? I would say no, anybody disagrees?

I disagree with respect to logic and the laws of finance.

 

Your home country revolving credit agreement obliges the credit card company to pay, on your behalf, the cost of any goods or services that you authorise and in turn obliges you the cardholder to reimburse the credit card company.

 

In Thailand, you offer up your credit card as payment for the rent on your Bangkok apartment. The landlord accepts the offer and is provided with consideration, by the credit card company., on your behalf. Therein, the three essential components of any contract have been met, offer, acceptance and consideration and significantly, that contract was made in Thailand.

 

When the credit card company pays the landlord, the remittance has been made, on your behalf, for goods or services you specified and received whilst in Thailand.

 

With respect to iHerb: importing goods into Thailand using a foreign credit card strikes me as not Thai assessable (given all the usual criteria about the source of funds used to pay the bill)/

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Is the 190,000 B allowance for people over 65 applicable already for the tax year in which you turn 65? 

I believe it is since the important part is the age during the tax year. But I don't have an official statement from TRD to confirm this so I presume it must be regarded as opinion!

[Phulublub]

17 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Logic sides with @JimGant

The statements of the TRD in the embassy videos  side with @chiang mai, the sniff test, too.

This is the 27th time we discuss this,  nothing new here.

 

Related: buying stuff from iHerb, paying with my foreign CC, and have it sent to Thailand - is this a taxable remittance? I would say no, anybody disagrees?

No.  You have not remitted any funds to Thailand.  You are, howver, importing goods on which you will likely have to pay import duty.

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Sure but if the credit line is never paid back then the source of funds remains forever money that has been borrowed.

I'm sorry your point being?

 

You not paying your credit card bill is exactly the same as... 

    You not sending yourself that money to Thailand?

    You never taking that money out of an ATM?

    You never bringing & exchanging that cash into Thailand?

 

Point?

 

 

 

 

 

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

You're right, all these unrealistic theories make me confused.

Practically, I believe foreign CC audits on regular tax residents won't be performed although technically but laboriously possible.

And they do not need to be.  ONLY those selected for audit, and only then those who the TRD decide may not have told the entire story with their tax return (or lack thereof) will need to have any checks made.  Once again, it is the responsibility of the individual to accurately report their tax return and the figures contained.

 

Probably my last contribution to this subject as people appear bent on inventing ever more implausible scenarios

 

PH

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

people appear bent on inventing ever more implausible scenarios

 

PH

Many of these exceptional scenarios would likely end up in front of a tax tribunal judge with both sides able to argue for and against assessability. The point is they are exceptions which are probably so complex that even tax attorneys would have difficulty deciding them.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

When the credit card company pays the landlord, the remittance has been made, on your behalf, for goods or services you specified and received whilst in Thailand.

Right, using the bank's money, not yours. Just like buying a condo, with the bank's money, not yours. What's the difference?

 

Nevermind. We seem to be on a treadmill with this subject. You go ahead and declare your Visa purchases to TRD, while I won't. Then we'll both be happy in our skin.

[chiang mai]

Pr ftobably the major difference between the tax implications of using foreign credit cards in Thailand and those of using a home country loan to buy property here is the scale and volume. 

 

Between 65% and 85% of the populations of western countries have credit cards whereas I imagine the number of people willing and able to take out a loan in their own country, to remit to Thailand to buy property, must be in the very low single digits percentage wise.

 

 

 

[Yumthai]

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

10 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Sure but if the credit line is never paid back then the source of funds remains forever money that has been borrowed.

I'm sorry your point being?

 

You not paying your credit card bill is exactly the same as... 

    You not sending yourself that money to Thailand?

    You never taking that money out of an ATM?

    You never bringing & exchanging that cash into Thailand?

 

Point?

Point was a loan never refunded is not assessable income.

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Yumthai said:

Point was a loan never refunded is not assessable income.

And my point is....There are yet undiscovered tribes in the Amazon rain forest who could have told you that BUT...

 

WTF does that have to do with Thailand?

 

 

[Yumthai]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

8 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Point was a loan never refunded is not assessable income.

And my point is....There are yet undiscovered tribes in the Amazon rain forest who could have told you that BUT...

 

WTF does that have to do with Thailand?

Maybe you should the thread to understand my point.

 

You use a foreign CC in Thailand. It's a loan/credit line from a foreign financial institution/company. If it's never refunded (paying back only interests) it cannot be assessable income in Thailand.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe you should the thread to understand my point.

 

You use a foreign CC in Thailand. It's a loan/credit line from a foreign financial institution/company. If it's never refunded (paying back only interests) it cannot be assessable income in Thailand.

Pays 150k in interest payments to avoid 50 baht in tax, sounds like a great plan!

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Pays 150k in interest payments to avoid 50 baht in tax, sounds like a great plan!

Indeed depending on the CC it's not financially workable.

[topt]

7 hours ago, Lorry said:

This is the 27th time we discuss this,  nothing new here.

Finally somebody mentions it - yet certain posters seem to be happy debating it over and over again.......

 

Tax threads - the carousel of perpetual motion..........

[jacob29]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

Right, using the bank's money, not yours. Just like buying a condo, with the bank's money, not yours. What's the difference?

Malaysia has explicitly listed credit card payments as coming under the umbrella for FSI (foreign source income). That doesn't mean Thailand will adopt the same ruling, but odds are they will.

 

With fringe benefits there may not even be a transfer at all - if you're staying rent free at company owned premises, there are going to be tax implications. Which highlights that the precise method of payment is not the main consideration.