Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[chiang mai]

59 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Wait a minute... We keep hearing that the minimum threshold for the requirement to file a tax return is 120k single -- 220k married. Now the BP is reporting the threshold is 300k baht per year. Which is it?

 

Ah, so the 25k/mo -- 300k/year -- is, on average, the threshold after which taxes are due. Which just happens to be the threshold whereby a tax return is required to be filed. Could it be that -- the threshold to file a tax return just happens to equate to the threshold after which taxes are due? Naaa. That makes too much sense.

 

But what about those 6.25 million folks who filed tax returns, but didn't owe taxes? Were they, of sound mind and pure soul, merely adhering to the requirement to file, if one exceeded 120k/220k? Or had their employers withheld taxes, as required -- and they were just filing to have these withholdings refunded? (And, as a BP article recently reported, there were many fraudulent tax filings for the return of phantom wiithholdings.) Hmmmm.

 

 

Nah....not going there, but thanks for the invite.

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are you just being rather obtuse, or trolling for effect ?

Or can't you even understand English, from the Bangok Post, albeit of the translated variety:

Quote

25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms,

Can't you understand the written word? What does "minimum threshold to file tax forms" mean to you? Yes, I'm well aware of the published thresholds for required filing of 120/220. But I'm taking to task the BP for changing that threshold to 300k -- which you conveniently interpret as somehow a threshold where taxable income begins (an unrealistic threshold, since everyone's threshold is determined by TEDA).

 

Quote

All clear so far, you keeping up the back ?

 Talk about being obtuse. I guess you find my use of math a distraction?

Quote

The 25,000 baht a month income ( which you extrapolated to 300k a year )

The emphasis added was yours. Is the product of 12x25 so astonishing to you? So offensive? Or is it in keeping with tax returns dealing with annual, not monthly, figures?

 

Anyway, it's obvious you and I think on different frequencies. If you can't understand my postings, maybe it would be best if you analyzed for a little bit longer, before replying to a post whose elements escape your understanding. Cheers.

[chiang mai]

Guys, it's Christmas, chill.

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Can't you understand the written word?

 

Yes, I can. Not convinced that you can.

 

Limits for filing a tax return is 60 / 120 / 220k baht, depending on type of income and whether filing as an individual or a couple. Source TRD ( The actual Tax people )

 

Limits for actually starting to pay tax equates to an average salary of 25,000 baht a month ( as reported in the BP ) or 300,000 baht a year. The exact figure will depend on your individual circumstances and what your Individual TEDA's are. ( This information can also be found on the TRD website, the actual tax people )

 

2 different limits, that have 2 distinct, but very  different meanings.

 

I cannot really make it any easier for you to understand.

 

 

[JimGant]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Limits for actually starting to pay tax equates to an average salary of 25,000 baht a month ( as reported in the BP )

Geez, "actually starting to pay tax" are totally words of your invention. The BP's words were:  25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms,

 

Which is  what I was replying to. What's wrong with your comprehension?

 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Which is  what I was replying to. What's wrong with your comprehension?

 

What is wrong with yours ?
 

Quote

A very badly worded paragraph. I would suggest it should read

 

9.55 million tax filers.

 

3.3 million had a monthly income above 25,000 baht, where tax, on average, becomes payable, after deductions and actually paid tax.

 

The remaining 6.25 million had no tax liability after TEDA's were applied 

 

Give it up now, before I draw the conclusion that you have caught a bad dose of Listeritus.

[JimGant]

52 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Nah....not going there, but thanks for the invite.

Ah, come on CM. You must have some opinion on my observations vs the Cyclist's?

[JimGant]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

A very badly worded paragraph. I would suggest it should read:

3.3 million had a monthly income above 25,000 baht, where tax, on average, becomes payable, after deductions and actually paid tax.

You might "suggest," but what I was responding to was the BP's " 25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms" Your suggestion doesn't change what they reported. Maybe you're correct that maybe your suggestion is what they meant. But, my response was to what they actually reported -- and what possible subsequent conclusions could be made from their report.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You might "suggest," but what I was responding to was the BP's " 25,000 baht, the minimum threshold to file tax forms"

 

What does the Thai Revenue code say about thresholds for tax filing  ?
 

They are the actual tax authority not the BP.

 

Have an issue, present your @rs* to your local RD office and fight your corner.

 

Go on, be a hero. 

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

What does the Thai Revenue code say about thresholds for tax filing  ?
 

They are the actual tax authority not the BP.

Yeah, but wouldn't you like to know why the BP would report something not in conjunction with TRD code? Particularly since -- at least to me -- it makes more sense that their: "must file when taxes are due" makes more sense than the TRD code requiring null tax returns.........

 

Anyway, fat chance we'll ever know why BP reported as they did. So, let's give it a rest.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, but wouldn't you like to know why the BP would report something not in conjunction with TRD code? Particularly since -- at least to me -- it makes more sense that their: "must file when taxes are due" makes more sense than the TRD code requiring null tax returns.........

 

Anyway, fat chance we'll ever know why BP reported as they did. So, let's give it a rest.

Yeah

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, but wouldn't you like to know why the BP would report something not in conjunction with TRD code?

 

OMG. The BP, for the 1st in history of the printed media, might have printed something erroneous.

 

Never happened before, no sirreeeee.

 

The printed figures tell you that what they had actually printed was wrong.

 

9 million filed

 

3 million paid tax

 

6 million paid nothing.

 

Rounded to the nearest million.

[JimGant]

53 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The printed figures tell you that what they had actually printed was wrong.

 

9 million filed

 

3 million paid tax

 

6 million paid nothing.

 

Rounded to the nearest million.

Wow, you really nailed their erroneous reporting. My apologies.

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

6.25 million never paid any tax, because they did not earn 25,000 a month or their TEDA took them below the level of paying any income tax.

 

Just for additional info:

 

That 6.25 mill is broken down elsewhere in a separate article, in it says that circa 4 mill were for refunds, leaving circa 3 mill of what have become known as null returns.

 

But let's not lose sight of the main point here. In 2023 there were 11.9 mill tax filers. In 2020 there were 9.55 mill. in the tax system, the numbers of people registered for tax and therefore identifiable by TRD, has been  increasing, it's not as though the numbers of people in the tax net are static. 

[The Cyclist]

36 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

But let's not lose sight of the main point here. In 2023 there were 11.9 mill tax filers. In 2020 there were 9.55 mill. in the tax system, the numbers of people registered for tax and therefore identifiable by TRD, has been  increasing, it's not as though the numbers of people in the tax net are static. 

 

Its a red herring in terms of retiree expats.

 

The above figures are mainly Thais with a sprinkling of foreigners legitimately working in Thailand.

 

For the purpose of these tax threads for expats. The only pertinent point is that there is people filing tax returns who do not pay tax.

 

And only pertinent to a small number who struggle with the difference between assessable income and taxable income.

 

 

[chiang mai]

12 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Its a red herring in terms of retiree expats.

 

The above figures are mainly Thais with a sprinkling of foreigners legitimately working in Thailand.

 

For the purpose of these tax threads for expats. The only pertinent point is that there is people filing tax returns who do not pay tax.

 

And only pertinent to a small number who struggle with the difference between assessable income and taxable income.

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the number of people in the tax net has grown year on year for the past 5 years, and not by a small amount. It has been said that the TRD is not capable, equipped or willing to grow the taxable base but the evidence is to the contrary. For the current tax rule change to have any impact, the TRD needs firstly to have the will to expand the tax net and its growth over the past five years strongly suggest they do. If you're the TRD, you want to show that you've been doing your job and either increasing the number of tax filers, increasing tax revenue or ideally, both. Not all expat pensioners will improve revenue but they wont know that for certain until they have sampled them. And in the process, they will find some wealthy pensioners who will pay.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

The point I'm trying to make is that the number of people in the tax net has grown year on year for the past 5 years, and not by a small amount.

 

Yes, I get your point.

 

The figures you quoted from the BP of some 3. something million actual taxpayers out of a population over 70 million is abysmal, to put it politely. But this is mostly a Thai thing and for the Thai's to sort out.

 

And I dont believe that expanding the Thai tax net was aiming for expat retirees, they are a by product, some of whom will get swept up in the net, by accident more than design.

 

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Not all expat pensioners will improve revenue but they wont know that for certain until they have sampled them. And in the process, they will find some wealthy pensioners who will pay.

 

I will go further and say that expat pensioners will add next to nothing to the tax take. For the following reasons.

 

1. Many will not have to register and pay tax ( DTA's )

 

2. Those that do have to register will pay very little or nothing due to tax credits & TEDA's.

 

3. The ' some wealthy pensioners ' that you mention, have had the best part of 18 months to re-adjust their finances to ensure that they will not pay Thai tax.

 

As a direct example of the ( mistaken idea of a ) wealthy pensioner.

 

In comparison to a Thai minimum wage worker I am probably wealthy. Compared to the Musks, Ma's and Gates of the World, I am a pauper in comparison. For reason No1 given above, I will neither filing a tax return or paying any tax.

 

And I'm guessing, that the above will apply to a large majority of retiree expats.

[CapraIbex]

26 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, I get your point.

 

The figures you quoted from the BP of some 3. something million actual taxpayers out of a population over 70 million is abysmal, to put it politely. But this is mostly a Thai thing and for the Thai's to sort out.

 

And I dont believe that expanding the Thai tax net was aiming for expat retirees, they are a by product, some of whom will get swept up in the net, by accident more than design.

 

 

I will go further and say that expat pensioners will add next to nothing to the tax take. For the following reasons.

 

1. Many will not have to register and pay tax ( DTA's )

 

2. Those that do have to register will pay very little or nothing due to tax credits & TEDA's.

 

3. The ' some wealthy pensioners ' that you mention, have had the best part of 18 months to re-adjust their finances to ensure that they will not pay Thai tax.

 

As a direct example of the ( mistaken idea of a ) wealthy pensioner.

 

In comparison to a Thai minimum wage worker I am probably wealthy. Compared to the Musks, Ma's and Gates of the World, I am a pauper in comparison. For reason No1 given above, I will neither filing a tax return or paying any tax.

 

And I'm guessing, that the above will apply to a large majority of retiree expats.

I somewhat agree with your perspective. If, after calculating your tax exposure, you find there’s no tax liability and the penalty for not filing a tax return is relatively minor, one might question whether it’s worth the effort to file at all.

[chiang mai]

33 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, I get your point.

 

The figures you quoted from the BP of some 3. something million actual taxpayers out of a population over 70 million is abysmal, to put it politely. But this is mostly a Thai thing and for the Thai's to sort out.

 

And I dont believe that expanding the Thai tax net was aiming for expat retirees, they are a by product, some of whom will get swept up in the net, by accident more than design.

 

 

I will go further and say that expat pensioners will add next to nothing to the tax take. For the following reasons.

 

1. Many will not have to register and pay tax ( DTA's )

 

2. Those that do have to register will pay very little or nothing due to tax credits & TEDA's.

 

3. The ' some wealthy pensioners ' that you mention, have had the best part of 18 months to re-adjust their finances to ensure that they will not pay Thai tax.

 

As a direct example of the ( mistaken idea of a ) wealthy pensioner.

 

In comparison to a Thai minimum wage worker I am probably wealthy. Compared to the Musks, Ma's and Gates of the World, I am a pauper in comparison. For reason No1 given above, I will neither filing a tax return or paying any tax.

 

And I'm guessing, that the above will apply to a large majority of retiree expats.

Agreed on all points

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, CapraIbex said:

I somewhat agree with your perspective. If, after calculating your tax exposure, you find there’s no tax liability and the penalty for not filing a tax return is relatively minor, one might question whether it’s worth the effort to file at all.

 

That wasn't my perspective at all.

 

If I was required to file a tax return, even if there was no tax liability, I would make the effort once a year to file a tax return.

 

I have no intention of getting into the bad books of the tax revenue department, in Thailand or anywhere else.

[CapraIbex]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

That wasn't my perspective at all.

Sorry, I misread.

[motdaeng]

33 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

... 

I will go further and say that expat pensioners will add next to nothing to the tax take. For the following reasons.

...

 

i'm not entirely sure about that ...

 

just thinking out loud and playing numbers : if from around 300,000 foreign tax residents, and only 10% of them pay taxes an average of 50,000 thb annually, this would result in a total of 30,000 x 50,000 thb = 1,500,000,000 thb ... which could be a solid foundation to further strengthen tax regulations ...

 

however, we don't really know how the TRD views this or whether there is an other long-term plan in place ...

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

just thinking out loud and playing numbers : if from around 300,000 foreign tax residents, and only 10% of them pay taxes an average of 50,000 thb annually, this would result in a total of 30,000 x 50,000 thb = 1,500,000,000 thb ... which could be a solid foundation to further strengthen tax regulations ...

 

Cannot argue with your figures, cannot agree with your methodology.

 

I cannot for life of me see how 30,000 retiree expats would be liable for 50,000 in Thai Tax a year.

 

Those that might be liable for such an amount, would have already adjusted their finances to ensure that they were not paying that amount.

 

In theory, it is possible, reality says otherwise.

[chiang mai]

I agree with @motdaeng, it may not be 50k in tax but it only takes a small percentage before the numbers look attractive overall and incentivise TRD to increase them. Longer term expats with assets and family here are probably most vulnerable because they will not want to move, nor will many be able to. It depends ultimately on lifestyle and whether or not 50k a month is considered to be adequate. 

 

We live in interesting times.

[Enzian]

Occurs to me that a big problem with the current and developing situation is that it could be considered inherently unfair by many nationalities. In the business I'm in (RE) I have to treat everyone the same, and I would want to anyway. I can't treat someone who moved to my area from NYC differently from someone who came from Hawaii. The DTA system is literally from another century. Americans are favored, others not. It's a mess, and needs a complete overhaul. Ideally ex-pats would be exempt if they otherwise contribute to the economy. But the current mess is a big reason why it may take a very long time for any kind of enforcement to come about. 

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, Enzian said:

Occurs to me that a big problem with the current and developing situation is that it could be considered inherently unfair by many nationalities. In the business I'm in (RE) I have to treat everyone the same, and I would want to anyway. I can't treat someone who moved to my area from NYC differently from someone who came from Hawaii. The DTA system is literally from another century. Americans are favored, others not. It's a mess, and needs a complete overhaul. Ideally ex-pats would be exempt if they otherwise contribute to the economy. But the current mess is a big reason why it may take a very long time for any kind of enforcement to come about. 

A good point, except, Thailand charges all foreigners much more, for many things so the concept of fairness isn't a priority. 

[CapraIbex]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I agree with @motdaeng, it may not be 50k in tax but it only takes a small percentage before the numbers look attractive overall and incentivise TRD to increase them. Longer term expats with assets and family here are probably most vulnerable because they will not want to move, nor will many be able to. It depends ultimately on lifestyle and whether or not 50k a month is considered to be adequate. 

 

We live in interesting times.

Dare I suggest that long-term expats, retirees over 65 years old, married without children, and owning their accommodation and car could comfortably (in my opinion) live in Thailand on THB 800,000 annually, less THB 16,500 in taxes.

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, CapraIbex said:

Dare I suggest that long-term expats, retirees over 65 years old, married without children, and owning their accommodation and car could comfortably (in my opinion) live in Thailand on THB 800,000 annually, less THB 16,500 in taxes.

I agree

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I agree with @motdaeng, it may not be 50k in tax but it only takes a small percentage before the numbers look attractive overall and incentivise TRD to increase them.

 

If we are talking about retiree expats, the TRD cannot be incentivised to increase tax take from that cohort.

 

I gave you the 3 reasons above. The other major reason is that the Thai Government would need to withdraw from International Treaties ( DTA's ) to allow the TRD to increase tax take from that cohort.

 

Which will bring a whole new dynamic, which would also not increase the tax take from that cohort, as people would then, really pack up and move.

 

Which is probably what will also happen should Thailand move to taxing worldwide income.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Enzian said:

The DTA system is literally from another century. Americans are favored, others not. It's a mess, and needs a complete overhaul.

 

This would involve a herculean effort on the international stage. Thailand has entered into no fewer than 61 DTA's with other countries*, each of which would need to be renegotiated on a bilateral basis. And for Thailand to seek complete unanimity from these 61 countries on a consistent approach in future DTA's with each of them would almost certainly, in any event, prove easier said than done to achieve in practice.

 

* https://www.rd.go.th/english/766.html