Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[stat]

13 hours ago, chiang mai said:

You are no longer discussing the assessability of cc transaction and are instead exploring ways to evade tax.

You are in no position to provide proof to your claim.

[stat]

On 10/18/2024 at 11:11 AM, chiang mai said:

I am more than pretty sure, I am certain in my own mind that is the case. The logical reasoning has been set out numerous times by various members, ATM withdrawals and electronic funds transfers are only the transport mechanism, just as carrying cash on a [lane is the transport mechanism. If TT remittances are potentially tax assessable, so is every other form of transport.

You cannot be sure as there is no proof, but still you are . Again there is no logic when it comes to dealing with tax law in any country and especially not in wonderful TH.

[stat]

14 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Hard disagree -it is perfectly reasonable to say something is unconfirmed, because....... it is unconfirmed!

 

It's also reasonable to state an opinion that something might be untrue, that's just as valid an opinion as stating 'you're certain' , in the absence of any confirmation. 

 

 

A point very well made!

[stat]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I disagree with respect to logic and the laws of finance.

 

Your home country revolving credit agreement obliges the credit card company to pay, on your behalf, the cost of any goods or services that you authorise and in turn obliges you the cardholder to reimburse the credit card company.

 

In Thailand, you offer up your credit card as payment for the rent on your Bangkok apartment. The landlord accepts the offer and is provided with consideration, by the credit card company., on your behalf. Therein, the three essential components of any contract have been met, offer, acceptance and consideration and significantly, that contract was made in Thailand.

 

When the credit card company pays the landlord, the remittance has been made, on your behalf, for goods or services you specified and received whilst in Thailand.

 

With respect to iHerb: importing goods into Thailand using a foreign credit card strikes me as not Thai assessable (given all the usual criteria about the source of funds used to pay the bill)/

You are mixing up finance with tax law...

[stat]

Regarding the debate about cc transaction.

 

Why not take out a loan and pay the loan back several years later (when not in TH)? Should be OK in my mind.

 

My favorite still is to have the relatives pay my rent directly and hence gift me the money that should be OK in my book. In a lot of jurisdictions in the west it makes perfect sense to gift some money to your children.

 

My parents could even rent the house outright under their own names and I just life there as a caretaker.

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, jacob29 said:

Malaysia has explicitly listed credit card payments as coming under the umbrella for FSI (foreign source income). That doesn't mean Thailand will adopt the same ruling, but odds are they will.

 

With fringe benefits there may not even be a transfer at all - if you're staying rent free at company owned premises, there are going to be tax implications. Which highlights that the precise method of payment is not the main consideration.

Thanks, that's useful to understand.

 

It seems Malaysia now joins a list of countries where credit card transactions van be  considered as assessible, either directly or vis some form of transaction tax. The anecdotal examples is mounting.

 

Fringe benefits and benefits in kind are embedded in the Thai tax code: 

 

"Taxable income covers both cash and benefits in kind".

 

https://www.forvismazars.com/th/en/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/payroll/personal-income-tax

 

 

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, stat said:

You are mixing up finance with tax law...

The two things are part and parcel of the same thing, you should know that if you're working with international taxation! Where the contract is formed has a direct bearing on  its tax implications. If the purchase or contract was made overseas, it has no relevance to TRD, but because it was executed in Thailand is does.

 

Anecdotally: I spent one particular year working in Hong Kong but the work was such that I was in HK for less than 180 days in the tax year. HK PIT was taken from my salary every month, regardless of whether I was in HK of not. Bonus was paid at the end of the work and this was paid gross of tax. Ultimately the decision to tax my bonus or not came down to where my contract was signed, which was in the UK.

[Mike Teavee]

7 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Maybe you should the thread to understand my point.

 

You use a foreign CC in Thailand. It's a loan/credit line from a foreign financial institution/company. If it's never refunded (paying back only interests) it cannot be assessable income in Thailand.

Thank you Yoda... Thread shall I read to understand point you have (Sorry, I know it was a Typo but I couldn't resist 🙂.. In my defence I'm up before 4:30 so yet to have a coffee 🙂 ). 

 

IMHO the only germane point about Credit Cards is the money used to pay them off, if you never pay it off then clearly it's a loan & you've not remitted money anywhere, if you do pay them off then (IMHO) it becomes a discussion about the funds used to pay them off more than the credit card itself. 

 

Now, about that coffee.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thank you Yoda... Thread shall I read to understand point you have (Sorry, I know it was a Typo but I couldn't resist 🙂.. In my defence I'm up before 4:30 so yet to have a coffee 🙂 ). 

 

IMHO the only germane point about Credit Cards is the money used to pay them off, if you never pay it off then clearly it's a loan & you've not remitted money anywhere, if you do pay them off then (IMHO) it becomes a discussion about the funds used to pay them off more than the credit card itself. 

 

Now, about that coffee.... 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep coming back to try and understand why some countries regard credit card transactions as potentially assessable and why they should be, but as Gant asks, why loans are not. The possibilities I see are:

 

- the place where the transaction takes place is a key factor in forming the contract

- credit card operations are seen as a service and it is that which distinguishes it from pure lending.

- the sheer volume of credit card transactions and card holders makes them a more probable vehicle to try and escape tax, particularly in tourism oriented economies, which is why some Revenue Departments feel they must be included. 

- loans are equally as assessable but significantly rarer.

 

Ultimately, I agree it is the source of the funds used to pay the bill, credit card or loan, that will determine assessability but the ratio of the two must be phenomenally high. For every foreigner who takes out an overseas loan to buy property here, there must be millions of  people making credit card transactions using foreign cards where the bill is paid for using tax assessable income.

 

 

I

[stat]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I keep coming back to try and understand why some countries regard credit card transactions as potentially assessable and why they should be, but as Gant asks, why loans are not. The possibilities I see are:

 

- the place where the transaction takes place is a key factor in forming the contract

- credit card operations are seen as a service and it is that which distinguishes it from pure lending.

- the sheer volume of credit card transactions and card holders makes them a more probable vehicle to try and escape tax, particularly in tourism oriented economies, which is why some Revenue Departments feel they must be included. 

- loans are equally as assessable but significantly rarer.

 

Ultimately, I agree it is the source of the funds used to pay the bill, credit card or loan, that will determine assessability but the ratio of the two must be phenomenally high. For every foreigner who takes out an overseas loan to buy property here, there must be millions of  people making credit card transactions using foreign cards where the bill is paid for using tax assessable income.

 

 

I

There is nothing to understand why one country has different laws and application of the law then another, one just has to accept it. I side with you that it is likely (60% I guess) that cc transactions will be considered assesable but how UK treats is only a very limited indication.

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, stat said:

There is nothing to understand why one country has different laws and application of the law then another, one just has to accept it. I side with you that it is likely (60% I guess) that cc transactions will be considered assesable but how UK treats is only a very limited indication.

And Malaysia.

 

The issue is not about why different countries differ in their taxation approach to CC transactions but why remitted loans in one country are not assessable whilst credit card transactions in the same country almost certainly are.

[stat]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

And Malaysia.

 

The issue is not about why different countries differ in their taxation approach to CC transactions but why remitted loans in one country are not assessable whilst credit card transactions in the same country almost certainly are.

There is no issue. The lawmaker can decide that only Germans who post on AN under the name of Hayek are taxable in Thailand. They basically can degree what they want. There is no stringent logic in tax law. We can guess, but they can do what they want.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, stat said:

There is no issue. The lawmaker can decide that only Germans who post on AN under the name of Hayek are taxable in Thailand. They basically can degree what they want. There is no stringent logic in tax law. We can guess, but they can do what they want.

You have no confirmed proof that is true, you don't know the answer to the question I raised  and are now just making things up.

[KhunHeineken]

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

they are going to demand it off me.

Yes.  I have always said this is a possibility. 

 

It makes you go to them, rather than them chasing you.  Make sense, doesn't it?

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

You’re being quite argumentative over a really quite benign couple of posts. But to answer you I have sufficient information that I can access off my phone to verify the source of my pension.

Not being argumentative. 

 

TIT.  How much do you think a TRD Officer will care what's on your phone at a boarder? 

 

Remember, you flight is leaving soon.  You will pay, or miss your flight, and they know this. 

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

In the unlikely event that I have to show some clerk from the TRD this at the airport which you seem to think will be next year.

Why do you think it's unlikely? 

 

They have overstay desks. 

 

Why not TRD desks for a quick and easy few baht off foreigners who have stayed more than 180 days?

 

They fine you 500 baht for 1 day overstay, why not some BS "tax" for being in Thailand for more than 180 days? 

 

On 10/16/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bluetongue said:

I just don’t agree with you that it is this close. Are you suggesting that they will force people to lodge a return at the airport, or more simply just pay a large fine. If they do this they will have to announce it categorically in advance. 

You don't have to agree. 

 

I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. 

 

I am merely contemplating the Thai's milking the farang cow, and why, because they can. 

 

I have never said anything about lodging a tax return at a boarder.  

 

All I have ever said is "something" may need to be paid, either for an extension, or at a boarder. 

 

For some, that "something" may be a joke, compared to what what they should pay at law, and for others, who possibly should not have to pay anything at all, they may have to pay "something."

 

TIT.  You know the way it goes here.  Money, Money, Money. 

[chiang mai]

I'm struggling to see where previous estimates exist, outside the 48 to 52 percent range, a 4% variance. I think most people should be willing to accept that margin of error in discussions such as these. 

 

I also think 3.2.1 in the bot document is reliable.

[stat]

On 10/20/2024 at 11:31 AM, chiang mai said:

You have no confirmed proof that is true, you don't know the answer to the question I raised  and are now just making things up.

I do not claim I know for sure how cc transactions are handled by the TRD but you do claim exactly that.

 

So it is up to you to provide the proof . I do not understand why this simple logic is hard to understand. What exactly did I make up? Please answer this exact question.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, stat said:

I do not claim I know for sure how cc transactions are handled by the TRD but you do claim exactly that.

 

So it is up to you to provide the proof . I do not understand why this simple logic is hard to understand. What exactly did I make up? Please answer this exact question.

The following that you posted yesterday, it has no bearing or relevance on what's was being discussed.

 

"The lawmaker can decide that only Germans who post on AN under the name of Hayek are taxable in Thailand. They basically can degree what they want. There is no stringent logic in tax law. We can guess, but they can do what they want".

 

The tax rules are enshrined in the TRD code, changing them requires an act of Parliament. So no, a law maker cannot just decide to change the rules and tax one nationality, especially since fairness and equality are a prerequisite for tax code rules globally, if they are not those things they wont work. 

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, stat said:

I do not claim I know for sure how cc transactions are handled by the TRD but you do claim exactly that.

 

You attempt to turn one person's opinion into fact and then demand proof of the fact that you just invented. Tell me, are you bored or just sad?

[Captain Flack]

A number of reported posts and the replies have been removed as being off topic and were acting as a distraction.

[chiang mai]

While another poster in a different thread about tax tells us that the TRD e-filing system appears to have been updated with an option for foreign income.....anyone shed any light on this?

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

Latest ExpatTax video on Capital Gains... 

 

[Klonko]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Latest ExpatTax video on Capital Gains... 

 

Good explanations. One correction: there is an inheritance tax in Thailand.

 

Filing capital gains on remittances from a complex foreign investment portfolio with withholding taxes in non-English speaking jurisdiction is only practical if the custodian provides Thai tax compliant reporting and foreign non-English tax certificates do not need to be translated. Applying the current processes to global income would be nightmare, also because  relevant information may not available by April.

 

 

[stat]

4 hours ago, Klonko said:

Good explanations. One correction: there is an inheritance tax in Thailand.

 

Filing capital gains on remittances from a complex foreign investment portfolio with withholding taxes in non-English speaking jurisdiction is only practical if the custodian provides Thai tax compliant reporting and foreign non-English tax certificates do not need to be translated. Applying the current processes to global income would be nightmare, also because  relevant information may not available by April.

 

 

The inheritance tax has a "high" threshold of 100M Baht.

 

https://thailand.acclime.com/guides/inheritance-tax/

[anrcaccount]

9 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Latest ExpatTax video on Capital Gains... 

 

 

Be very careful relying on any information from this company, which sprung up only in October last year, some might say opportunistically. Consider their real world experience with the TRD, even, whether they have ever submitted a Thai tax return, let alone one with foreign income..........

 

Anyone know the source for his definitions of the accounting methods for capital gains calculation? 

 

Where has he got this info from, when it's not listed by any of the bigger/established accounting firms, or the TRD?

He states FIFO and Average Cost are acceptable. Really?

 

Consider a single stock owned with multiple purchases at different cost prices over a long time period. When a portion of these shares are sold, it's possible to choose which parcel. Therefore to minimise capital gains, in this situation any logical investor chooses to sell the highest cost first. How can FIFO or Moving average apply to this?  Logically appears impossible, as then TRD would be trying to tax a stock that hasn't even been sold, (unrealised gain) let alone remitted.

[dinga]

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Be very careful relying on any information from this company, which sprung up only in October last year, some might say opportunistically. Consider their real world experience with the TRD, even, whether they have ever submitted a Thai tax return, let alone one with foreign income..........

 

Anyone know the source for his definitions of the accounting methods for capital gains calculation? 

 

Where has he got this info from, when it's not listed by any of the bigger/established accounting firms, or the TRD?

He states FIFO and Average Cost are acceptable. Really?

 

Consider a single stock owned with multiple purchases at different cost prices over a long time period. When a portion of these shares are sold, it's possible to choose which parcel. Therefore to minimise capital gains, in this situation any logical investor chooses to sell the highest cost first. How can FIFO or Moving average apply to this?  Logically appears impossible, as then TRD would be trying to tax a stock that hasn't even been sold, (unrealised gain) let alone remitted.

He was challenged on this point during (I think the last) webinar and said he would re-confirm the TRD accepted those methods and would put the confirmation on his website.  Has that happened??????? 

[Mike Teavee]

59 minutes ago, dinga said:

He was challenged on this point during (I think the last) webinar and said he would re-confirm the TRD accepted those methods and would put the confirmation on his website.  Has that happened??????? 

He did say in this video that he would look to email out the TRD documentation & add it to the website, Video was only released today so might take a couple of days to get it on there.

 

 

Although this article is aimed at "Digital Assets" it does say that FIFO & Average Cost should be used for Capital gains... https://drkilaw.com/index.php/component/spsimpleportfolio/item/28-b-thailand-s-digital-asset-tax

 

From a much older article it looks like if you physically held the share certificates then you would use the cost of the certificates you settle the trade with, if you hold the assets electronically (Scripless) then you could use FIFO or Average Cost... https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/299691/when-the-revenue-department-changes-its-mind-the-taxpayer-gets-the-headache

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

He did say in this video that he would look to email out the TRD documentation & add it to the website, Video was only released today so might take a couple of days to get it on there.

 

Webinar was actually held on October 3rd, but we'll see. If you do receive any source link or TRD documentation, be great if you share it on here. 

 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

 

Although this article is aimed at "Digital Assets" it does say that FIFO & Average Cost should be used for Capital gains... https://drkilaw.com/index.php/component/spsimpleportfolio/item/28-b-thailand-s-digital-asset-tax

 

Thanks for the link. 

 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

From a much older article it looks like if you physically held the share certificates then you would use the cost of the certificates you settle the trade with, if you hold the assets electronically (Scripless) then you could use FIFO or Average Cost... https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/299691/when-the-revenue-department-changes-its-mind-the-taxpayer-gets-the-headache

 

Thanks again for the link,  yes a very old article, pretty vague, but to be clear it does state any that LIFO is also acceptable:

 

"For scripless securities, the taxpayer is allowed to use any acceptable accounting method such as FIFO, LIFO or weighted average method in calculating cost of securities."

 

and also states specific share parcels can be sold at cost if identified:

 

"Where securities are certified and the serial numbers of the shares are identified, the specific cost of the share has to be used."



 

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Webinar was actually held on October 3rd, but we'll see. If you do receive any source link or TRD documentation, be great if you share it on here. 

Sorry I didn't attend the Webinar & assumed it was held within the past couple of days as the Video only went up this morning so was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I have had a good trawl through the site & the only potentially interesting article I can see regarding Capital gains is again about Crypto https://www.expattaxthailand.com/cryptocurrency-tax-thailand/

 

 

I don't really see a difference between Gains made on Crypto, Shares, bottles of wine etc... so would assume that the rules would be the same when it comes to calculating the Gain but it would be nice to see that documented somewhere officially. 

 

 

Edit: Interesting that the article quotes Section 40 (4) (h) but when I look at the TRD English site it only goes up to 40 (4) (g)...  https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html 

 

[stat]

Accounting method can only be FIFO OR average cost, so apparently both are acceptable and one can chose. This was also mentionend in a doc from TRD that Chiang Mai kindly provided.

[oldcpu]

22 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I have had a good trawl through the site & the only potentially interesting article I can see regarding Capital gains is again about Crypto https://www.expattaxthailand.com/cryptocurrency-tax-thailand/

 

 

Interesting link.  Under the DTA section I immediately spotted this:

 

 

Quote

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

 

 

That could be advantageous in some cases.