Essential Driving Rules and Etiquette in Thailand

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

richard_smith237 - is running around like a headless chicken - he does this every time I post - there is a pause as he scours Google and cherry picks a few quotes he can plagiarise. 

This time he has quoted me and then the 1979 Thai road traffic "rule book"

However the Vienna treaty of which Thailand became a signatory supersedes and prior bilateral agreements - it also is worth noting how in order to gainsay my post he can only fixate on one point realling out pages of rubbish.

 

Bilateral agreements that conflict with provisions of a later multilateral treaty may be considered superseded or modified to the extent of the conflict. This ensures that international law remains coherent and that countries adhere to agreed-upon standards in their relations with all treaty parties.

Therefore, if the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic signed by Thailand conflicts with any provisions of prior bilateral agreements with the UK regarding road traffic regulations, the Vienna Convention would generally take precedence. Thailand would be expected to harmonize its domestic laws with the provisions of the Vienna Convention, potentially rendering conflicting bilateral agreements ineffective in those specific areas covered by the treaty.

 

There's enough information that has repeatedly shown the flaws in your comments - you are unable to handle that and instead choose to double down with your broken argument. 

 

- And IDP is not needed for holders of UK Driving Licenses to legally drive in Thailand

- Thai's can drive in the UK on Thai Licenses for up to a year (part of a bilateral agreement)

- UK License holder without an IDP can obtain a Thai license without doing full Driving test

 

- Those older than 70 renewing their UK license (every 3 years) need to make a medical declaration

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, Bday Prang said:

My last IDP was valid for 3 years, something to do with brexit apparently,  but they are no longer issued at the post office, 

 

The 1949 IDP is valid for 1 year

The 1968 IDP is valid for 3 year

 

As you mention, the Post office has stopped issuing IDP's.

IDP's in the UK still need to be obtained in person (a real PITA) from 'PayPoint' Stores.

 

https://consumer.paypoint.com/international-driving-permits

 

Its a shame we can't apply online. 

 

We (Wife and I) just received a 1949 IDP from the DLT - while there we were told we can apply online.

 

[roo860]

12 hours ago, kwilco said:

there are already vision tests when you renew a Thai licence - at 70 in UK you can self certify at 70 but you will automatically lose parts of your licence - e,g, Light goods vehicles and passenger vehicles. You can keep you M/C licence but don't buy a big RV, you won't be covered. If you want to keep your full licence you already have to take a medical with a registered GP.

You mean the traffic light colour test in Thailand?

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, roo860 said:

You mean the traffic light colour test in Thailand?

there are at least two eye tests when renewing in Thailand, the colour blindness test and the 3d test - a basic colour-blindness test, peripheral vision check, and a reaction-time test using a brake pedal simulator - do you have a Thai licence? Have you renewed it?

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

You have some sort of mental instability issue where you believe you are the only one capable of presenting information....

 

You accused me of being 'wrong in EVERY post' then go on to post the same thing !!....  

 

...  utterly dumb.

 

 

 

 

what's the matter know nothing?

"If you want to keep your full licence you already have to take a medical with a registered GP."

[richard_smith237]

15 minutes ago, kwilco said:

what's the matter know nothing?

"If you want to keep your full licence you already have to take a medical with a registered GP."

 

 

Absolute rubbish....   

 

In the UK people over 70 do not need to have a GP certified medial checkup when renewing their driving license every 3 years...   they are only required to self certify medical fitness which is why there was proposed change to policy (as indicated by Vinny41)...

 

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/uk-drivers-over-70-could-30661495

 

 

[roo860]

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

there are at least two eye tests when renewing in Thailand, the colour blindness test and the 3d test - a basic colour-blindness test, peripheral vision check, and a reaction-time test using a brake pedal simulator - do you have a Thai licence? Have you renewed it?

Yes have both car and motorbike, renewed my 5yr car licence about 3 months ago in Chiang Mai, only did the traffic light colour test at the counter. No other test required 

[roo860]

This is from the uk government site.

 

 

You can use this service to renew your British driving licence if you’re 70 or over, or will be 70 in the next 90 days, and:

 

your British licence has expired – or it’s going to expire within 90 days

you’re a resident of Great Britain (there’s a different service in Northern Ireland)

you meet the minimum eyesight requirement

you aren’t prevented from driving for any reason

Once you reach 70, you must renew every 3 years.

 

You can change the licence photo at the same time as renewing your licence.

 

 

[liddelljohn]

18 years for legal  Thai  license is NOT ENTIRELY TRUE    ,, There is a special rule  in the education act and  traffic acts  for under 18 years old school students   from 15 -18    in remote rural areas to use  motorcyles  to access secondary schools more than 3km from home ....without a license ,,

 

However    the rule is abused and not policed in many areas especially big cities like Bangkok, Pattaya etc which have buses and mass transport  ,,The riders must be in School uniform and only going to and from school ...

 

As usual in Thailand  anarchy  rules ,,,on this  situation

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, liddelljohn said:

18 years for legal  Thai  license is NOT ENTIRELY TRUE    ,, There is a special rule  in the education act and  traffic acts  for under 18 years old school students   from 15 -18    in remote rural areas to use  motorcyles  to access secondary schools more than 3km from home ....without a license ,,

 

However    the rule is abused and not policed in many areas especially big cities like Bangkok, Pattaya etc which have buses and mass transport  ,,The riders must be in School uniform and only going to and from school ...

 

As usual in Thailand  anarchy  rules ,,,on this  situation

 

15-18 years old - restricted to less than 110cc - which is also never followed.

 

But... when 4 kids are riding to school on a single bike, without helmets past policemen etc...  a complete farce is made of any rules... 

... until someone pulls a wheelie on a main road and posts it on social media !!

 

[CharlieH]

Bickering posts removed.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, roo860 said:

Yes have both car and motorbike, renewed my 5yr car licence about 3 months ago in Chiang Mai, only did the traffic light colour test at the counter. No other test required 

I renewed mine in Samui - had all the tests are you saying you didn't o the depth perception or reflex tests?

[kwilco]

Most expat/foreign drivers are very ethnocentric in their views of driving in Thailand and even after years in the country fail to grasp the basics of Thai culture and apply that to the driving environment.

 

Driving in Thailand the influence of boats and Rivers

“Rivers and canals are synonymous with Thai life and culture”[1] (Batra, 2014). 

 

Before WW2 - rivers were the main transport routes in Thailand. The power and influence that the “river” still has on daily Thai life should not be underestimated.

 

The canals date back to well before the founding of Bangkok in 1782 and were the primary means of transportation, a source of food and water, part of ceremonies in particular Loy Krathong and many other activities. Before Bangkok, the ancient Thai capital of Ayutthaya was dubbed “Venice of the East” by the first European visitors in the 17th century. Important structures, such as markets and temples, were built on the river and canal banks. This in turn influenced the development of the city and its layout. With the introduction of the automobile and roads, the role of the canal system in Thai life was reduced but things like the rules of transport remained embedded in the Thai psyche. As roads took over, buildings were constructed facing them and canals have been paved over to become streets.”

 

Long-tail boats, Thailand’s version of gondolas, were the mainstay of Thai transport; they literally kept the Thai economy afloat. Originally the boats were mostly skulled with some small sails. The relatively still waters of the delta rivers and canals being suitable for these flat-bottom boats to glide over the surface.

 

So, Thailand’s transport history and development was for centuries predominantly centred on rivers. Thai water culture influences all aspects of Thai life. “Kuaytiao reua” boat noodles restaurants still have a boat for display or shape their counters like boats. Buildings like temples, schools, hotels and condominiums are frequently built in shapes that mimic boats.

 

Decorations on Vehicles

The roads are no different - The ornate decorations on buses, trucks and other vehicles have most of their roots in the decor of boats and barges. The iconography of symbols on commercial vehicles is a fascinating topic of its own. Mandalas, Gods of speed and those icons of Serpico to ward off corrupt police. Taxis and many private vehicles have ornate shrines in the front that are just the same as the boats with offerings to Mae Ya Nang. You will also see various other icons. Yants, similar to tattoos are usually drawn above rear-view mirrors by monks who bless the vehicle. Images of Thai kings, often on a bank note, decorate dashboards on taxis and other commercial vehicles.

 

Goddess Mae Ya Nang

Many Thai people believe Mae Ya Nang to be a female spirit that resides in the body of the boat, it is also said that Mae Ya Nang is the Goddess of journeys. By paying respect to Mae Ya Nang passengers can expect her protection and a safe journey.

 

Thailand imports and then “adapts”. Adding bits of tradition and culture to whatever it is they have taken a shine to...the car is no exception. Look inside any truck bus, taxi or car in Thailand and you’ll see evidence of this. Steering wheels, the rooves, and dashboards are adorned with symbols and rituals taken from boats - Garlands hang from the “stem” - the rear-view mirror - shrines to Mae Ya Nang.  And so it goes on almost every car, truck or bus..

 

The general public still pay at least a nodding respect to Mae Ya Nang and it obviously influences their attitude to driving. (NB in Europe, the West and Catholic countries, saluting of spirits under bridges and the ubiquitous St Christopher medals in cars). At every traffic light you can be offered a garland of Jasmin flowers (phuang malai)[2] to hang of your mirror to show respect to this goddess. (BTW - it’s 20 baht a time and give them the old one for recycling)

 

“I’m in a boat”

Anyone who has owned or moored a river boat will recognise the similarities with the double or three deep “mooring” in car parks and the moorings for boats on a bank or jetty; vehicles are left with no brake on so they can be pushed out of the way like any boat at a mooring.

The proposition that the Thai national psyche is orientated towards river transport is to me particularly appealing. It could indeed account for a lot of road traffic behaviour that seems to show an abundance of those characteristics. In towns it flows much more as if on water than on asphalt. Even out on the open road you can see behaviour that fits more with navigating a boat on a river than the western idea of driving a car. The sweeping lines taken around bend across the lanes of traffic, no sudden halts just gentle drifting out into mainstreams. Swinging into the current from a tributary (side road) - The contraflow traffic moving slowly alongside the bank (i.e. - hard shoulder or central reservation) sheltering from the oncoming current… moving off so slowly so as not to upset the load…and of course parking nose first - putting in the bow and hoping the stern will drift in round behind, all are perfect examples of how to handle a boat on a river. The Thai driver - anthropologically speaking at least, seems to be in a boat. When this culture is added to the speed capability of road-going motor vehicles, you get a potentially unsettling mixture of fluidity and danger. So, next time you’re out driving, just keep repeating to yourself “I’m in a boat, I’m in a boat, I’m in a boat” and you may be pleasantly surprised to see how it all comes together…

 

 

 

[roo860]

27 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I renewed mine in Samui - had all the tests are you saying you didn't o the depth perception or reflex tests?

Yes I am, that's my 3rd 5yrs renewal and only done traffic light test in Chiang Mai, only ever done depth of field and reaction test when I first got a Thai licence in Pranburi.

[richard_smith237]

 

This is comedy gold !!!....   "I'm in a boat, I'm in a boat"...    

 

A pathetic masterpiece of pseudo-intellectual drivel, equating Thai driving chaos to some mystical boat ballet.... 

 

I had no idea that cutting people off without a glance, running red lights and driving the wrong way were sacred nods to ancient water culture.

 

The 'I’m in a boat' mantra? brilliant....  Perhaps next we’ll call traffic jams "glorious regattas" and potholes "spiritual whirlpools." 

 

Swinging into oncoming traffic isn’t a nod to nautical heritage; it’s stupidity dressed up as culture. And Mae Ya Nang? Sure, let’s add mystical excuses for why half the drivers can’t grasp the concept of a turn signal.

 

This drivel doesn’t just miss the point - it runs it over, backs up, and drives off cluelessly, like the 'boat' you're idolising.

 

Pure amusement in a single post - thank you !!!

[kwilco]

57 minutes ago, roo860 said:

Yes I am, that's my 3rd 5yrs renewal and only done traffic light test in Chiang Mai, only ever done depth of field and reaction test when I first got a Thai licence in Pranburi.

I got my last 5 year just before Covid - originally I got all my renewals in Chonburi - so I guess it varies from area to area. - not unusual for Thai govt departments.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, roo860 said:

Yes I am, that's my 3rd 5yrs renewal and only done traffic light test in Chiang Mai, only ever done depth of field and reaction test when I first got a Thai licence in Pranburi.

I got my last 5 year just before Covid - originally I got all my renewals in Chonburi - so I guess it varies from area to area. - not unusual for Thai govt departments.

[kwilco]

Thai Road History and Culture

If you know nothing about the past, you can’t learn from it – QED Dick.

 

Thailand is in love with the automobile especially the pickup, SUV and the motorcycle - it is a transitional society; rapidly changing from agricultural to industrial. Thailand has a motor industry that consistently ranks around 10th in the top twenty of world producers... That’s about the same as the UK.

 

The class system and road safety - Thailand has its own peculiar problems. Sakdina is the archaic cast system that dominated Thailand until the 20th century. It still hasn’t been fully swept away and it manifests itself in many aspects of Thai life, including the roads. Thailand has one of the world’s most unequal societies, and even its roads have a rigid hierarchy, with the poor far more likely to be killed in accidents than the well-off and well-connected.[1]

 

The  concept that any race or nation has a greater proportion of stupid drivers is just not valid. The ability to drive safely and responsibly isn't determined by race or nationality. Factors like education, experience, and adherence to traffic laws road and vehicle engineering play a much larger role in determining driving competence than any racial or national identity. It's important to approach such matters with objectivity and avoid generalizations that can perpetuate stereotypes.

The reality is that other societies are simply better at stopping their stupid ones from being stupid. There may a lack of enforcement and training, different driving conditions and customs, but to dismiss all Thai drivers as innately or racially stupid is really showing a profound lack of understanding of both Thailand AND driving. The term “culture” is often used by racists to support these sort of generalisations and stereotypes, but it isn’t culture it’s a racist cliché. Culture means growth, it’s not static, it changes all the time but it often has roots deep in the past. Sweeping generalisations based on race/nationality just don’t cut the mustard.

 

Driving Habits in Thailand

When it comes to actually driving, there is a lot of behaviour that is unfamiliar to foreigners; the key is to adjust to it as soon as possible. E.G. - flashing lights, horn and hazard lights; these are indeed often used in circumstances that differ from “the West”. However bear in mind that they all have well-defined general functions, these are just regional variations.

 

Internationally - Horn and flashing lights are to indicate your presence and the hazards are to indicate that your vehicle is stationary in a “hazardous” position.

All other uses, West or East are in fact just implied or inferences that we draw from the particular situation we are in at the time.

 

Then there are the tales of U-turns, traffic going the wrong way on dual carriageways and all those other “crazy” things that are accepted as everyday driving over here - no lights, no bodywork, no wheels, no looking, whatever... it really doesn’t take that long is a modicum of intelligence to work out and adjust to what’s happening or going to happen - if you fail to adjust, “som nam naa” - your journey may well come to an abrupt end.

 

Some knowledge of Thai culture can help explain some of this. The expression “it’s Thai culture” itself has to be treated with some circumspection. It’s a get-out for all sorts of ills and quirks. In practice, it’s usually just a cover up for someone’s own latent prejudice or even racism. Just a justification for a prejudice. However, a background knowledge on how certain aspects of Thai cultural or religious life connects to driving helps to understand and anticipate some of the foibles you are likely to encounter on the road.

 

I’ve mentioned the Thai acceptance of corruption in authorities. I’ve already mentioned the iconography of symbols used on vehicles and the superstitions, icons and emblems on trucks etc. but how does this affect every day driving? Many dismiss this as frivolous or pointless and then hang a St Christopher medal on the rear view mirror.

 

In Western countries we have grown up with the car for over ¾ of a century, most of Westerners are 3rd 4th or even 5th generation drivers. Driving is accepted as an integral part of life. Our “national psyches” are geared to this, as are our road systems and behaviour on them. Some of the systems we are used to can date back to those great road-builders the Romans (who it seems probably drove on the left). In Europe before the arrival of the motorcar, we already used a lot of roads and had established some basic highway codes and practices - the roundabout has its roots in C18th Britain, born out of the need to manoeuvre horse and carriages in front of rich housing projects. Driving on the left, which was legally established in the early C19th in the UK, is said to stem from the way we handled horses. Driving on the right was introduced by Napoleon who needed this at least in part to move large cargo carts along the roads of France.

 

Thailand is different. In Thailand, ask any car driver if their parents had a car and the vast majority will answer in the negative; mass motorised transport is a relatively recent thing here, it has taken hold rapidly together with Thailand’s rampant industrialisation. Including a huge protected motor industry. The number of motor vehicles has leapt from 2 million in 1981 to 27.5 million in 2010. By now the total is over 40 million over half being motorcycles.

 

Before this, the main form of transport in the Kingdom was by river. There were of course some hand or animal pulled carts but these were very localised and in much smaller numbers than Europe where an elaborate road system had existed alongside rivers for centuries. Many of the roads in Thailand were built or improved in the C20th for military purposes by the Japanese and then the US in the 50s and 60s. The first “real” road in Thailand was Charoen Krung Road, built in 1860s by Rama IV and helped to service the European quarter in Bangkok. This marked the beginning of the change from river to road transport.

 

Thailand currently only has less than 200 km of genuine motorway (compared to 3700 km of motorway in UK), but has announced plans to extend that to nearly 5000 km; a rather controversial plan that was first conceived in the 1990s.

 

The Old Highways

Most of the old highways connecting BKK to the rural cities were built with US aid during the Vietnam war in the 50s, 60s and early 70s to supply its military bases and to facilitate the movement of troops and arms. There were 4 main highways in Thailand that were developed largely after the war into the 1950s. mostly with American help although the chief Thai engineer was trained in the UK.

 

1.      Phahonyothin Road (Highway 1)[2], - Bkk to Tachileik, Burma – started before war.

2.      Mittraphap Road (Highway 2)[3] - the first Thai highway to use both asphalt and concrete. It received the name "Thanon Mittraphap" on 20 February 1957.

3.     Sukhumvit (Highway 3)[4] – Bkk to Cambodia. Phra Bisal Sukhumvit was trained in the USA and was responsible for starting the highway system in the 1930s and 40s. he was responsible for a rapid increase in Thailand's road infrastructure during the 1930s and 1940s. Not a supporter of the Japanese, he also developed a few roads in Thailand during WW2. It was probably the Japanese who consolidated the “drive on the left” rule for Thailand.

4.     Phetkasem Road (Highway 4)[5]. – Longest in Thailand finished 1950; the A4 was finished in the 1950s under the charge of an English trained Thai engineer

 

 

It's important to understand the history and culture of a country to understand their roads, and the blinkered lack of understanding by so many on this thread goes a long way to explaining why so many foreigners are so useless as drivers - they simply don't understand what is going on around them - 

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

If you know nothing about the past, you can’t learn from it – QED Dick.

 

Ah, a lecture dressed as a history lesson, dripping with pretension and sprinkled with stereotypes. Delightful. Let’s unpack this symphony of self-importance masquerading as an insight, shall we?

 

 

Thailand’s love for pickups and motorcycles. Fascinating stuff. What's next, a deep dive into why fish enjoy water? And comparing Thailand’s motor industry to the UK - because obviously, nothing says global context like measuring everything against the former Empire. Brilliant... 

 

Then, the "Sakdina cast system" diatribe - interesting, if wildly speculative. Unequal societies and road safety are somehow tied together by an archaic hierarchy that, by your own admission, is mostly historical? That’s like blaming my coffee spilling on the alignment of Jupiter. A stretch, but sure, let’s roll with it.

 

And your point about "stopping stupid ones from being stupid" - pure poetry. So other societies are better at keeping their stupidity contained, while Thailand lets it roam free? Perhaps, but judging by this treatise, we can confirm stupidity knows no borders.

 

The cherry on top: "Foreigners don’t understand Thai driving culture." Oh, please. Adjusting to driving in Thailand isn't a mystical rite of passage; it's an exercise in not getting obliterated by a truck with no headlights going the wrong way. If survival instincts aren’t culture, I don’t know what is.

 

In conclusion, your ramble is less a critique and more a masterpiece of verbose nonsense, peppered with stereotypes and wrapped in a thin veneer of faux intellectualism. Well done for managing to sound both condescending and clueless in equal measure...  Brilliant stuff...  Thanks once again Kwildo for the entertainment...

 

.....   "I'm a boat, I'm a boat" !!!  

[kwilco]

"cutting people off without a glance, running red lights and driving the wrong way" - are generalisations used to reinforce the idea that Thai people as a race or bad drivers …

 

We see in this thread some wild bigoted assessments of driving in Thailand.

Attributing driving behaviours to an entire race or nationality is unfair and inaccurate. Just like any country, Thailand has a diverse population with varying levels of driving skills and adherence to traffic laws.

 

Thy fail to provide any statistical data or reliable sources that offer a more balanced view of road safety in Thailand. Generalizations do not reflect the reality of overall traffic safety trends or individual driving habits.

I have given an overview to explain driving norms and behaviours in Thailand can vary widely across different regions and cities within Thailand. It's way more constructive to discuss specific issues or challenges in road safety rather than making sweeping generalizations

Sharing personal experiences or anecdotes  usually resorts to exercises in confirmation bias

.This  de-humanizes the discussion and offers only a racist perspective.

Blanket statements can perpetuate stereotypes and harm perceptions of entire groups of people unfairly.

 

People fail to approach these points calmly and logically,  using critical thinking techniques.

 

Foreigners observations on driving in Thailand are full of cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and racial prejudice - backed up only by anecdotal evidence

 

Remember – the plural of anecdote is not data!

 

Addressing perceptions of driving in Thailand, particularly when influenced by cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and racial prejudice, requires an objective approach.

One needs to start by acknowledging that perceptions of driving in any country can be influenced by personal biases and limited experiences and admit that this opens the door to a more balanced discussion.

 

People fail utterly to realise the limitations of anecdotal evidence. Individual experiences are only valid in context and they never represent the entire reality of driving in Thailand. Look at broader statistics and studies for a more comprehensive understanding.

 

As I said earlier – foreign drivers are obsessively ethnocentric. Driving norms vary significantly across cultures. What may seem chaotic or reckless to one person might be perceived differently within the local context. It is important to understand cultural differences in interpreting driving behaviours. This will make your own driving so much less stressful – in short if you find yourself spouting a litany of “Thai driving errors” – the problem is most likely with you, not the other drivers.  – What is needed understanding and empathy toward cultural differences rather than a sense of entitlement that the foreign driver is both superior and better at driving.

 

The use of stereotyping has highly questionable validity, What is needed is an analysis of  specific examples and consider whether they truly reflect the majority of drivers in Thailand or if they are exaggerated perceptions.

People’s perspective often lacks an objective or b balanced approach;   objectivity needs to be applied along with critical thinking methodology when discussing driving behaviour in Thailand.  People vastly under estimate Thai drivers good behaviour on roads – for instance you are less likely to die in a 4 wheeled vehicle in Thailand than in th USA.

 

A more nuanced and balanced perspective, can help challenge and mitigate biases and prejudices often associated with those anecdotal observations of driving in Thailand. We need to challenge negative stereotypes and promote a more inclusive perspective.

[richard_smith237]

29 minutes ago, kwilco said:

A more nuanced and balanced perspective, can help challenge and mitigate biases and prejudices often associated with those anecdotal observations of driving in Thailand. We need to challenge negative stereotypes and promote a more inclusive perspective.

 

 

Yet another monologue of verbose absurdity, sprinkled with clichés and cloaked in a flimsy guise of pseudo-intellectualism which sounds both patronising and uninformed at the same time. 

 

That said, your comments read well.... but are still utter tosh that drown a simple topic in a sea of pompous over-analysis, turning routine driving behaviours into an inflated exercise exercise in cultural critique...

.... You overuses jargon like "cognitive dissonance" and "ethnocentrism" to give the illusion of depth, while offering little practical insight. You are more interested in lecturing readers about their supposed biases than addressing the realities of driving in Thailand....

 

.... By inflating basic observations into grand moral lessons your comments become nothing more than a self-righteous rant, disconnected from the actual, everyday experiences you claim to critique.

 

..  Is that nuanced enough for you ?...

 

"I'm a boat, I'm a boat"..... 

 

 

[kwilco]

Perceptions of Road safety in Thailand

 

Why can’t people understand road safety in Thailand?

 

“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.” – Dave Barry

 

When it comes to road safety – “seeing is believing” is most definitely NOT the case….

 

The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… (take note Dickie) It is important to overcome them….

 

Confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G. – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers doing the same.

 

Cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.) E.G. – when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true – you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-held belief and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. A common sign of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it.

 

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills.

 

To understand road safety, it is advisable to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment” … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others.

 

Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social media.

 

Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape of the neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something. - This has long been a discredited view in road safety science.

 

Preconceptions and prejudices: -  Foreign drivers in particular in Thailand often get overwhelmed by the unfamiliar traffic environment. This transmutes itself into criticism of other (native) drivers who seem far more comfortable on the roads. This quite often takes on a very aggressive and condescending nature.  Comments by foreigners on road safety in Thailand are mostly just derogatory. Rather than any critical thinking or research, people simply use either anecdotal evidence or personal observation e.g. false (or politician’s) syllogisms[1] that don’t make for a well thought out, sound argument.

 

Most of this advice I’d suggest is ill considered and at times downright wrong. Add to this a lack of experience by those handing out advice or any real knowledge of the factors contributing to road safety in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) and the result is not so much opinions as assumptions and wildly inaccurate assertions. Just because someone can operate a car, doesn’t make them an “expert” on road safety.

     

Many ignore the issues of road safety and focus on what they see as “bad driving”, and then conclude that driving in Thailand is that it is a prohibitively perilous thing to do and that this is largely down to Thai people being useless drivers.  In fact, Thais have grown up in the Thai driving environment and are much more accustomed to it than most foreigners. They have the skills for survival. It is often foreigners who fail to understand and adapt to a new driving environment and try to stick to the old rules and conventions that dominated in their old home country…. they do so at their peril. Driving by the rules – your rules – is just not the right way to drive in Thailand. It is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. What they consider to be experience is in reality brainwashing or conditioning.

 

Statistically, driving in a 4-wheeled private vehicle is a lot safer than people would have you believe. The road death rate for these in Thailand is just about the same as it is in the USA.

 

Most of the opinions that appear on chat web sites etc., are by people who issue a series of tirades and vitriol against Thai drivers. Virtually every opinion is thoroughly negative.

Many posters also suggest that because the roads are too dangerous to consider driving oneself, a driver or public transport was preferable. This is of course highly illogical as they have already accused Thai drivers of being the “worst in the world” so why would they let one drive them? On one hand they admit they aren’t competent enough to drive on Thai roads and then say all Thai drivers are dangerous and no good at driving???

 

What is more important is how competent a driver YOU are and how good is your ability to understand, acclimatise and adapt to the driving environment in Thailand. My experience is that many foreigners, even those who have lived in the country for a long time fail to grasp these concepts.

 

 “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”. – so are you!

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger[2] effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as self-appointed authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. When it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably consider themselves to be “experts” –

 

Healthcare, Teaching and education and Road safety seem to be prime examples of this –

·      Because they went to hospital, they are  be “experts” on healthcare

·      because they went to school, they are “experts” on education

·      because they can drive a car, they are “experts” on road safety

Everyone seems to think they are superb drivers and better than all those other road users.

 

Expert - a reverse fallacious appeal to authority, often used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” or asking them why they think they are an “expert”. As if any opinion other than an “experts” must automatically be invalid.[3]

 

People accept archaic ideas on road safety without question but things have moved on and this is reflected in the dramatic drop in traffic injury figures of countries that have adopted the “new” thinking. E.g. the “Safe System”. The problem is that if someone is told something they haven’t thought about before and even if it is backed it up with logic and reason, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they ignore even the most powerful evidence.

 

In Thailand, the default position for foreigners is to turn on the vitriol when talking about their fellow road users... they automatically exclude themselves from the equation and whilst implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of any Thai people.

 

It also seems that many foreigners who don’t even drive themselves like to get in on the act and get just as vociferous. However, it does underline that road safety isn’t just about driving, it’s about ROAD USERS - and that includes everyone on or near the road, pedestrians, stall holders, elephants, gammons etc etc…….

On the whole though, if we were to believe everything the non-Thais posting on chat forums said, we wold have to conclude that almost everyone is better than the average driver! Which is mathematically impossible...

 

Detailed anecdotal descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving achieve nothing. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplifying matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea.

 

A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users

 

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin

 

“ ….. there are only three types of drivers; the too fast, the timid and oneself.” 
― Virginia Graham, Say Please

 

“There are two things no man will admit he cannot do well, drive and make love.” – Stirling Moss

 

“The survey by Michelin North America found that the majority of Americans don’t trust other drivers and say they witness unsafe driving behaviour regularly. At the same time, an overwhelming majority - 81 percent - remain supremely confident in their own abilities behind the wheel.” [4]

 

These were some observations resulting from research done by the Centre for Transport and Society - UK....

 

The public know that driver behaviour is a major contributory factor in the vast majority of road accidents... (Cauzard, 2003) -

But there is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a riskier manner than individuals themselves do  - (King and Parker, 2008)

It’s not just driving, older children and adolescents think they have good attitude and skills towards road safety but believe that others especially those in their peer group do not - (Tolmie. 2006).

 

Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

• I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do.

• Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them”

• Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves.

• Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008)

• The third-person effect (Davison, 1983).

• High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education

• But not for themselves - for other people.

 

 However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives.

 

 

[1]Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

[2] Dunning-Kruger effect: - a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

[3] “Experts” feel the need to know every piece of information before they start a project and constantly look for new certifications or trainings to improve their skills. They won’t apply for a job if they don’t meet all the criteria in the posting, and they might be hesitant to ask a question in class or speak up in a meeting at work because they’re afraid of looking stupid if they don’t already know the answer.

[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

[kwilco]

As  shown any in depth discussion on Road safety in Thailand can prove very difficult and confusing for some as they simply have never actually thought about it...preferring to resort to a bunch of over simplistic cliches. 

I've been studying and writing on road safety since the 1990s and especially in Thailand since 2000.  Road safety is a discipline that goes unnoticed people tend to think that because they can drive, they are "experts" ( I hate that word!) on road safety.

 It's a bit like thinking they a qualified in medicine because they've been in hospital or are educationslists because they went to school.

[Bday Prang]

On 1/9/2025 at 2:24 PM, richard_smith237 said:

 

IDP's in the UK still need to be obtained in person (a real PITA) from 'PayPoint' Stores.

My nearest was in the middle of the most squalid council estate I have ever seen

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Bday Prang said:

My nearest was in the middle of the most squalid council estate I have ever seen

just go to another one, then

[kwilco]

On 1/9/2025 at 11:17 AM, richard_smith237 said:

 

 

Absolute rubbish....   

 

In the UK people over 70 do not need to have a GP certified medial checkup when renewing their driving license every 3 years...   they are only required to self certify medical fitness which is why there was proposed change to policy (as indicated by Vinny41)...

 

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/uk-drivers-over-70-could-30661495

 

 

looks like richard doesn't know he's lost several categories on his licence!