Thailand's Expats Urged to Register with TRD for Tax, Says Expert

[JimGant]

35 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I've just quoted the KBANK FATCA/CRS Individual Self-Certification form you linked and obviously didn't read, mentioning next to Thai-TIN field in red letters: "Mandatory if you have taxable income in Thailand."

Well, of course. This goes along with all the reports from folks turned away from TRD offices, who couldn't get a TIN, because they didn't have a tax obligation. KBank is obviously one of those organizations -- vetted and licensed by the Thai govt -- that has a grasp on reality: NO NEED FOR A TIN, IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED. Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN. Otherwise, why? (Thank you KBank for restoring my faith that Thailand has some logical thinkers.)

 

Yes, we've all heard the cry, particularly from shyster accounting firms (but also from the righteous on this forum), that you need to come in, pay 12000 baht, and get a TIN -- or else you're in trouble if you remit 60k in assessable income. Hogwash. My near minimum wage gardener makes 125k -- and like the other 99% of manual laborers, earning near minimum wage -- isn't about to file a tax return, not they he could on his own, nor could he afford to hire someone to file. No, KBank, among many others, realizes that some regulations suck, and thus need to be ignored -- particularly when there's no realistic risk -- and when there's a definite cost to the govt to process null returns, with no checks to pay for such processing. Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

 

You should have read the whole form

 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/th/Download/Level4_doc/FATCA-CRS-FORM_INDIVIDUAL.pdf

 

The bottom of part 2 

 

Fill in the " Amount of Income exempted to taxation / Types of income exempted from taxation / Under issuing TIN "

 

So in my case. XX Baht / Government Pension / NI number.

 

Which will tie in with my P60's, which is my papertrail.

 

And I am not convinced that * Mandatory if you have taxable income is correct.

 

I think that should read * Mandatory if you have assessable income ( Which to be pedantic, could be called taxable income, before Deductions and allowances are made )

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, essexman said:

I too have received an email from kasikorn Bank.

 

Subject: Request of FATCA/CRS information

 

 

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K-Customer FATCA-CRS Update <[email protected]>	Sat, Nov 23, 9:03 PM (15 hours ago)
to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Valued Customer,

       We, KASIKORNBANK PUBLIC COMPANY LIMITED, would like to express our sincere gratitude for entrusting us in providing you our products and/or services. As part of Thailand’s participation in the Multilateral Competent Authority Agreement on the Automatic Exchange of Financial Account Information (MCAA CRS), financial institutions are obligated to submit certain information to the Revenue Department, Ministry of Finance, in accordance with the Emergency Decree on Exchange of Information for Compliance with International Agreements on Taxation, B.E. 2566 (2023) and related regulations (hereinafter collectively referred to as the “CRS”).
       The CRS aims to combat tax evasion by individuals residing outside Thailand and to ensure compliance with international taxation standards. In light of these requirements, we kindly request your cooperation in completing the following steps:
       1. complete and sign the attached forms, which include:
           1.1 FATCA/CRS Individual Self-Certification,
           1.2 IRS Form W-9 (if applicable), and
           1.3 IRS Form W-8BEN (if applicable);
       2. provide a certified true copy of your passport; and
       3. return the completed forms and document(s) abovementioned to us by email at [email protected] no later than December 20, 2024.
       We sincerely appreciate your prompt attention to this matter and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. If you have already completed these actions or your information has already been up-to-date, please kindly disregard this request.
       Should you have any questions or require clarification regarding the CRS or how it applies to your specific situation, please consult with your legal or tax advisor. You may also refer to the Revenue Department, Ministry of Finance, for further guidance. Please note that KASIKORNBANK PUBLIC COMPANY LIMITED does not provide you any tax or legal advice, and we shall not be held liable for any damages, whether direct or indirect, arising from your use of or reliance on any information provided by us related to CRS or taxation.
       If you have any questions or require any assistance, please do not hesitate to contact K-Contact Center at Tel: 02-888-8888, ext. 876.
       Please be informed that, in accordance with our policy, none of your personal information shall be requested via telephone or SMS.


Best regards,
KASIKORNBANK PUBLIC COMPANY LIMITED

 

 

 

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What is this? Well received with thanks. Thank you for your email. ReplyForward   Add reaction

Looks like a scam. If it is really aimed at customers, the personal name should be included first. In other forums there is also discussion about the authenticity of this spam email. Let's see what KBank will publish about it in the next few days.

[chiang mai]

49 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, of course. This goes along with all the reports from folks turned away from TRD offices, who couldn't get a TIN, because they didn't have a tax obligation. KBank is obviously one of those organizations -- vetted and licensed by the Thai govt -- that has a grasp on reality: NO NEED FOR A TIN, IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED. Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN. Otherwise, why? (Thank you KBank for restoring my faith that Thailand has some logical thinkers.)

 

Yes, we've all heard the cry, particularly from shyster accounting firms (but also from the righteous on this forum), that you need to come in, pay 12000 baht, and get a TIN -- or else you're in trouble if you remit 60k in assessable income. Hogwash. My near minimum wage gardener makes 125k -- and like the other 99% of manual laborers, earning near minimum wage -- isn't about to file a tax return, not they he could on his own, nor could he afford to hire someone to file. No, KBank, among many others, realizes that some regulations suck, and thus need to be ignored -- particularly when there's no realistic risk -- and when there's a definite cost to the govt to process null returns, with no checks to pay for such processing. Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

"Once again, this argument, which will never be solved believed with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense".

 

So there you have it chaps and chapettes, ignore the Thai Tax Revenue Code, ignore the Revenue instructions to obtain a a TIN, ignore the various law firms, ignore the AN members posts quoting discussions with the Revenue, ignore the Big 4 Accountancy firms, ignore the tax consultants, ignore the media reports and just use your common sense......er, isn't there a dichotomy in there somewhere!

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

.er, isn't there a dichotomy in there somewhere!

 

Does that dichotomy sometimes go by the name of fear ?
 

It would appear that some are bricking it and grasping at any straw that blows past in the wind.

[JimGant]

52 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

And I am not convinced that * Mandatory if you have taxable income is correct.

 

I think that should read * Mandatory if you have assessable income ( Which to be pedantic, could be called taxable income, before Deductions and allowances are made )

Well, don't be pedantic. I won't research other Western tax rules, but using the US tax return example, Taxable Income (TI) seems to be universal tax language for gross income, less deductions, is equal to income subject to taxation. Period. Of course, there could be some translation problems with the Thai. But, I don't think so. KBank knew what they were about.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, don't be pedantic.

 

I wasn't. Sarcasm not your thing 

 

Assessable Income is Taxable Income, where no tax may be due depending on the size of the assessable income, and the TEDA's that may apply.

 

Would be how I read ' Assessable Income ' 

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, don't be pedantic. I won't research other Western tax rules, but using the US tax return example, Taxable Income (TI) seems to be universal tax language for gross income, less deductions, is equal to income subject to taxation. Period. Of course, there could be some translation problems with the Thai. But, I don't think so. KBank knew what they were about.

US this, US that, the US tax rules are not relevant to the debate. I have no doubt that if you search long and hard enough you can find a phrase or two in another country's Revenue Code that supports your theory....so what, the TRD Code is all that matters. So let me ask you yet again, where is the supporting evidence, not the emotion or common sense or I think, evidence? ...I've shown you mine, now you show me yours. You've chosen to ignore the TRD Code and all the other sources of information that disagree with your theory, but now you've decided to latch on to K'Bank because some of the verbiage in their Customer Support flyer can be made to loosely fit what you think....jeeze, Jim, give it up will ya, put up or shut up!

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Does that dichotomy sometimes go by the name of fear ?
 

It would appear that some are bricking it and grasping at any straw that blows past in the wind.

Grasping at straws and hope is what it is, sadly, some people will buy into it and may well get in trouble later as a result. This may be opinion in a discussion forum but Rule 5 it pretty clear on this topic.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

some people will buy into it and may well get in trouble later as a result

 

As long as the don't start whinging like a ******** when they get bitten on the ****.

 

[JimGant]

20 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

So there you have it chaps and chapettes, ignore the Thai Tax Revenue Code, ignore the Revenue instructions to obtain a a TIN, ignore the various law firms, ignore the AN members posts quoting discussions with the Revenue, ignore the Big 4 Accountancy firms, ignore the tax consultants, ignore the media reports and just use your common sense......er, isn't there a dichotomy in there somewhere!

Ok. Probably time to stop the dialogue. The reader has enough input to decide for himself whether or not to get a TIN, if assessable income exceeds 60/120/220k -- and to prepare to file, if exceeding those markers. Some say filing is easy. I dunno. First glance at the English version of tax return looks fairly complex -- but, probably not, Plus, you -- doing the self-assessment -- can plug in the numbers with impunity -- and no math errors will show, unlike with US returns, where algorithms are bouncing off all the 1099 and W2 numbers against yours.

 

So, can you do a return with no stress on yourself? Or, will you need to pay someone to do it? Or, can you just conclude, with no taxes owed, that by just not filing a return, you will not be in any jeopardy? I believe all sides of this have provided enough information for the cognizant reader to make a decision.

 

I'm sure TRD will have more to say about this somewhere down the road -- particularly if swamped by null tax returns. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Lorry]

26 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"Once again, this argument, which will never be solved believed with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense".

 

So there you have it chaps and chapettes, ignore the Thai Tax Revenue Code, ignore the Revenue instructions to obtain a a TIN, ignore the various law firms, ignore the AN members posts quoting discussions with the Revenue, ignore the Big 4 Accountancy firms, ignore the tax consultants, ignore the media reports and just use your common sense......er, isn't there a dichotomy in there somewhere!

I am sure my local RD office will be very unhappy if all the farangs in the neighborhood (there are many) turn up and want to file nil returns or similar cr@p. 

I remember my last filing. I include the complete conversation:

ไม่มีรายได้อื่น?

ไม่มี

That's the level, they (and I) can handle. 

 

But from Kbanks red mails, it's clear,  that - as in my home country  - the TRD uses the banks as tax inspectors,  expects every foreigner to get a TIN (guess why?) and is going after the pensioners. 

I never believed those who in the beginning said they wouldn't go after the pensioners - they are. Low hanging fruit.

 

Who will win? The local RD office and @JimGant? Or their bosses, far away, and @chiang mai?

[BritManToo]

12 minutes ago, Lorry said:

But from Kbanks red mails, it's clear,  that - as in my home country  - the TRD uses the banks as tax inspectors,  expects every foreigner to get a TIN (guess why?) and is going after the pensioners. 

I never believed those who in the beginning said they wouldn't go after the pensioners - they are. Low hanging fruit.

The email looks like Phishing to me, as the account holder isn't addressed by name.

But if it is real, and you aren't American, you'd return it as 'no taxable income', so no need for a TIN.

And that only if they try to close your bank account.

 

Is Kbank writing to every Thai account holder that hasn't filed (about 80% of their customers)? My misses has a Kbank account, no TIN, and no email.

 

Just thinking about it, neither of us have emails at our Thai banks, wouldn't all legit contact be through the banking app?

Edited 39 minutes ago by BritManToo

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The email looks like Phishing to me,

 

Here is the docs being emailed out, on KBanks website

 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/en/Download/pages/result.aspx?type=70&group=1

 

 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is the docs being emailed out, on KBanks website

 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/en/Download/pages/result.aspx?type=70&group=1

 

 

Not interested, they contact me by phone app if they really want.

 

[samtam]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Well, of course. This goes along with all the reports from folks turned away from TRD offices, who couldn't get a TIN, because they didn't have a tax obligation. KBank is obviously one of those organizations -- vetted and licensed by the Thai govt -- that has a grasp on reality: NO NEED FOR A TIN, IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED. Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN. Otherwise, why? (Thank you KBank for restoring my faith that Thailand has some logical thinkers.)

 

Yes, we've all heard the cry, particularly from shyster accounting firms (but also from the righteous on this forum), that you need to come in, pay 12000 baht, and get a TIN -- or else you're in trouble if you remit 60k in assessable income. Hogwash. My near minimum wage gardener makes 125k -- and like the other 99% of manual laborers, earning near minimum wage -- isn't about to file a tax return, not they he could on his own, nor could he afford to hire someone to file. No, KBank, among many others, realizes that some regulations suck, and thus need to be ignored -- particularly when there's no realistic risk -- and when there's a definite cost to the govt to process null returns, with no checks to pay for such processing. Once again, this argument, which will never be solved with our current info from TRD, comes down to common sense.

Quote

IF NO TAXABLE INCOME, AND THUS NO TAXES OWED

 

Correct.

Quote

Thus, with my TEDA of 560k, only after I remit 561k of assessable income would I have a tax filing obligation, 'cause I owe taxes -- and thus would need a TIN

Incorrect, according to my Sathorn TRD:

Even if your assessable income is below your TEDA, if that income derives from funds brought into Thailand from income earned (outside of Thailand) in 2024, then you have to file a tax return. TRD will apply TEDA, and determine that you have no tax to pay. Please don't "shoot this messenger". This is what I have been told by Sathorn TRD, (last week). They are saying that I need to file, even if I do not need to pay tax.

 

 

Edited 20 minutes ago by samtam

[JimGant]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

so what, the TRD Code is all that matters. So let me ask you yet again, where is the supporting evidence, not the emotion or common sense

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards.  My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees.

 

But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions.

 

Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.

[samtam]

12 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Correct.

Incorrect, according to my Sathorn TRD:

Even if your assessable income is below your TEDA, if that income derives from funds brought into Thailand from income earned (outside of Thailand) in 2024, then you have to file a tax return. TRD will apply TEDA, and determine that you have no tax to pay. Please don't "shoot this messenger". This is what I have been told by Sathorn TRD, (last week). They are saying that I need to file, even if I do not need to pay tax.

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards.  My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees.

 

But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions.

 

Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.

 

As you suggest, TRD may decide that they do not want all these null filings. My TRD office has not said that so far, in fact the opposite, and until the filings begin in January 2025, any inundation will only occur after that. Clearly they are expecting one: the have set up an expat tax desk.

Edited 11 minutes ago by samtam

[chiang mai]

28 minutes ago, Lorry said:

I am sure my local RD office will be very unhappy if all the farangs in the neighborhood (there are many) turn up and want to file nil returns or similar cr@p. 

I remember my last filing. I include the complete conversation:

ไม่มีรายได้อื่น?

ไม่มี

That's the level, they (and I) can handle. 

 

But from Kbanks red mails, it's clear,  that - as in my home country  - the TRD uses the banks as tax inspectors,  expects every foreigner to get a TIN (guess why?) and is going after the pensioners. 

I never believed those who in the beginning said they wouldn't go after the pensioners - they are. Low hanging fruit.

 

Who will win? The local RD office and @JimGant? Or their bosses, far away, and @chiang mai?

This is not a win or loose debate, it is an evidence based debate that attempts to determine the correct answers. The only person who looses is the person who takes the incorrect advice and decides to do the opposite of what they are required to do. 

 

If as you say, TRD is using the banks as their agents that falls in line with BOT doing the same thing for foreign currency exchange and more.......the bank is the point of customer contact and can see the picture more clearly because they are closer. That would help explain why my Bangkok Bank branch made such a big deal out of obtaining signed photocopies and the original of my US SSc IDD form that went to Manilla, BBL knows those US SSc payments are tax exempt hence they can disregard them for tax reporting purposes.

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hey, you got me on the literal reading of the code. -- it's there for all to ponder and cast amazing glances towards.  My argument has been, like so many not-well-thought-out laws about many things -- folks who can analyze matters, and who can think, move on, away from ludicrous legal decrees -- and often these decrees disappear in the quiet of the night. My contention -- having to file when no taxes are due -- fits in this category of ludicrous decrees.

 

But, we'll see. Maybe TRD wants to look at 1000 dead trees of null tax returns, with no payment -- not that there would be anything there to suggest that certain income was not reported. Thus, I cannot imagine their continuing quest for null returns......which leads me to believe, that smarter folks at TRD, will come to more pragmatic conclusions.

 

Anyway, cheers. Your input has been invaluable to the reader -- as I hope has been mine, and many others. More discussion to come on this -- some kind of a US Podcast on this on 28 Nov? No conclusions really possible at this juncture.

It's been a useful debate that hopefully everyone has learned from.

[4myr]

13 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Here is the docs being emailed out, on KBanks website

 

https://www.kasikornbank.com/en/Download/pages/result.aspx?type=70&group=1

 

 

I've checked the documents and this has nothing to do with the rule change of Sept 2023 with regards to foreign source income remittance, but more to do with the requirement that Western banks already complied to, and Thai banks and FIs need to comply as well:

1) Part 1 is FATCA for US citizens, that was in place since 2016, however Thailand did not comply yet
2) Part 2 is CRS, which Thailand signed the implementation framework last year to comply

What does it mean to me?

In part 2 i am obliged to fill in my home country TIN.
This means my home country RD will automatically report my Thai bank accounts on my tax assessment next year, as they already do with my euro accounts in EU countries. And my home country RD will tax me on a deemed interest of my Thai bank accounts. 

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, samtam said:

Please don't "shoot this messenger. This is what I have been told by Sathorn TRD, (last week). They are saying that I need to file, even if I do not need to pay tax.

 

Thanx for the input. Seems, maybe, TRD is fishing for null tax returns,,,,,,, Can anyone suggest why?