U.S. Senators Introduce Legislation to Counter UN Actions Against Israel

[mokwit]

7 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

legimate targets under the Geneva Conventions

Really, so Israel must be bound by the Geneva convention.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

Really, so Israel must be bound by the Geneva convention.

 

   Are you asking a question or making statement ?

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

Yes, they do.  Hamas has dug a vast system of tunnels under residential buildings, schools, shops, hospitals, etc.  The tunnels are used for  military purposes and smuggling and are legimate targets under the Geneva Conventions.  The Palestinians who live, work or study in the buildings atop the tunnels have become involuntary human shields.

 

"Snaking beneath dense residential areas, the passageways allow fighters to move around free from the eye of the enemy. There are also bunkers for stockpiling weapons, food and water, and even command centers and tunnels wide enough for vehicles, researchers believe. Ordinary-looking doors and hatches serve as disguised access points, letting Hamas fighters dart out on missions and then slip back out of sight."  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/10/world/europe/hamas-gaza-tunnels.html#:~:text=After Hamas came to power in 2007%2C and,and electronic equipment to construction materials and fuel.

 

The State of Palestine is a signatory nation to all the Geneva Conventions.  The Fourth Geneva Convention in Article 28 states,  "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."   https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf    By using non-combatants  as human shields,  Hamas and ultimately the State of Palestine is violating the Geneva Convention and committing a war crime.

Always the same, cheap excuse to kill indiscriminately. And that for an operation thas has no chance at all of achieving the objective of eliminating Hamas 

[mokwit]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Are you asking a question or making statement ?

The point I am making is that people are saying Israel is entitled to bomb civilians according to the Geneva convention*, but they can't have it both ways, they must abide by the Geneva convention in their actions.

 

Sorry, but I don't share your enthusiasm for what Israel is doing. Israel is not whiter than white and nor does the Hamas attack make it so.

 

*has war even been declared?

Edited yesterday at 09:06 AM by mokwit

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, mokwit said:

The point I am making is that people are saying Israel is entitled to bomb civilians according to the Geneva convention*, but they can't have it both ways, they must abide by the Geneva convention in their actions.

 

Sorry, but I don't share your enthusiasm for what Israel is doing.

 

*has war even been declared?

   

   Hamas don't abide by any rules or regulations or conventions or agreements .

   If one side don't play by the rules, then why should the other ?

[mokwit]

If that argument applies then footage of an Israeli settler summarily executing a Palestinian justifies Hamas actions.

 

Sorry, but I don't share your enthusiasm for what Israel is doing. Israel is not whiter than white and nor does the Hamas attack make it so.

 

Having seen the footage and the comments by Israelis and American Jews online and Israelis on state media I don't ever want to hear Israels story again again. It turns out you are fine with genocide. Targeted eliminations of those carrying out the attacks and the command structure would have been recognised as justified.

Edited yesterday at 09:15 AM by mokwit

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, mokwit said:

It turns out you are fine with genocide. Targeted eliminations of those carrying out the attacks and the command structure would have been recognised as justified.

 

Hamas and Hezbollah have indeed been targeted and there is no genocide going on 

  

[coolcarer]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Always the same, cheap excuse to kill indiscriminately. And that for an operation thas has no chance at all of achieving the objective of eliminating Hamas 

Another one outed claiming that Israel was looking for a cheap excuse to kill indiscriminately. What a disgusting slur.

Edited yesterday at 12:46 PM by coolcarer

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, coolcarer said:

Another one outed claiming that Israel was looking for a cheap excuse to kill indiscriminately. What a disgusting slur.

Indiscriminately was not the right word. I'm convinced they are targeting terrorists, but don't care how many innocent students are killed in doing that. And putting that all on Hamas is a cheap excuse.

[Nick Carter icp]

17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Indiscriminately was not the right word. I'm convinced they are targeting terrorists, but don't care how many innocent students are killed in doing that. And putting that all on Hamas is a cheap excuse.

 

   How else could Israel get the terrorists who attacked them ?

Why don't Hamas distance themselves from civilians ?

[Nick Carter icp]

5 hours ago, mokwit said:

 

*has war even been declared?

 

   Is that a genuine question ?

Yes, Israel declared war on Oct 8 th

[Yellowtail]

The UN needs to be moved to Turkey 

[coolcarer]

7 hours ago, stevenl said:

Indiscriminately was not the right word. I'm convinced they are targeting terrorists, but don't care how many innocent students are killed in doing that. And putting that all on Hamas is a cheap excuse.

Too late. The veil slipped. No possibility of walking back from that and your further accusations that they do not care is just as disgusting. If that was the case evacuation orders would not happen and many other interventions that are put in place.

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, coolcarer said:

Too late. The veil slipped. No possibility of walking back from that and your further accusations that they do not care is just as disgusting. If that was the case evacuation orders would not happen and many other interventions that are put in place.

The veil slipped, what nonsense.

It's obvious they don't care.

[coolcarer]

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The veil slipped, what nonsense.

It's obvious they don't care.

Yep. What maybe obvious to you, someone who believes that they don’t care is not obvious to the facts on the ground. Thanks for displaying just how impartial you are

 

[Yagoda]

The best solution to the UN problem is to cut it off. We pay for it and if they dont want to play nice, ta ta, dont let the door hit you in the butt.

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

The veil slipped, what nonsense.

It's obvious they don't care.

War is hell, dont start one.

 

The whole Middle East is ripe for permanent peace. All we need is a few months worth of sanctions on Iran, as well as a couple of bunker Busters. 

[koolkarl]

On 11/16/2024 at 2:06 PM, Anant72 said:

What is your definition of common sense?

Supporting the good guys and not evil.

[Yellowtail]

7 hours ago, Yagoda said:

The best solution to the UN problem is to cut it off. We pay for it and if they dont want to play nice, ta ta, dont let the door hit you in the butt.

Stay in the US, pay our share, move it to Turkey

[Thingamabob]

On 11/16/2024 at 11:02 PM, ericbj said:

 

An alternative perspective :

 

Anyone not giving full support to Palestine following the appalling attacks that began with the Nakba, by Israelis on the Palestinian people, needs their head examining.

Zionist para-militarists certainly took the UN resolution, and the British withdrawal, as an opportunity to attack and cause over 500,000 Arabs to flee. However, they did not, inter-alia, rape and then behead women and children.

[Evil Penevil]

 

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

Always the same, cheap excuse to kill indiscriminately. 

 

It's  neither cheap nor an excuse.  It is the reason why the Palestinian death toll is so high in the Israel-Hamas War:  the tunnel system running under the Gaza Strip makes the buildings on top of the tunnels legitimate military targets.  Hamas is using  as human shields the  very people it claims to be protecting.    Urban warfare in a densely populated area like the Gaza Strip will inevitably result in civilian casualties, but deliberately making Gazans into human shields means the death rate will soar.

 

UNRWA is about the most pro-Palestine official one can imagine, but even it condemned a  tunnel discovered  in 2020 under one of its schools. UNRWA stated in an official release (my bold text):  "The Agency protested strongly to the relevant authorities in Gaza to express outrage and condemnation of the presence of such a structure underneath one of its installations.  The presence of a man-made cavity underneath the grounds of an UNRWA school is a serious violation of the Agency’s neutrality and a breach of international law."  https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unrwa-strongly-condemns-neutrality-breach-against-the-agency-in-gaza-statement/

 

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

And that for an operation thas has no chance at all of achieving the objective of eliminating Hamas 

 

By targeting the top tier of Hamas' leadership, killing nearly 20,000 of its fighters  and destroying as much of the tunnel system as possible, the IDF has come a long way in eliminating Hamas as an effective fighting force.  Finding and filling in the tunnel system is the key factor. Once Hamas is isolated, it will be destroyed.

 

11 hours ago, stevenl said:

I I'm convinced they are targeting terrorists, but don't care how many innocent students are killed in doing that. And putting that all on Hamas is a cheap excuse.

 

To  achieve its sworn goal of obliterating the state of Israel and its citizens, Hamas is willing to put the lives of all Gazans- children and adults- at risk.  It's perfectly correct to, put "that all" on Hamas.

 

43 minutes ago, koolkarl said:

Supporting the good guys and not evil.

 

But I'm a good guy!

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

To  achieve its sworn goal of obliterating the state of Israel and its citizens, Hamas is willing to put the lives of all Gazans- children and adults- at risk.  It's perfectly correct to, put "that all" on Hamas.

One could say:

 To achieve its sworn goal of obliterating hamas, Israel is willing to put the lives of all Gazans- children and adults- at risk.  It's perfectly correct to, put "that all" on Israel.

[pacovl46]

On 11/17/2024 at 2:07 AM, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    You are wrong about that .

Hamas are hiding in those buildings and so they become legitimate military targets .

   Those buildings cease to have any legal protection as soon as they are used by an armed force .

   There is no Geneva convention to protect those buildings 

I highly doubt that. There’s no way it’s legal to bomb a hospital when there’s innocent patients in there and the same goes for schools and kindergartens. 

[pacovl46]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:10 AM, Evil Penevil said:

Yes, they do.  Hamas has dug a vast system of tunnels under residential buildings, schools, shops, hospitals, etc.  The tunnels are used for  military purposes and smuggling and are legimate targets under the Geneva Conventions.  The Palestinians who live, work or study in the buildings atop the tunnels have become involuntary human shields.

 

"Snaking beneath dense residential areas, the passageways allow fighters to move around free from the eye of the enemy. There are also bunkers for stockpiling weapons, food and water, and even command centers and tunnels wide enough for vehicles, researchers believe. Ordinary-looking doors and hatches serve as disguised access points, letting Hamas fighters dart out on missions and then slip back out of sight."  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/10/world/europe/hamas-gaza-tunnels.html#:~:text=After Hamas came to power in 2007%2C and,and electronic equipment to construction materials and fuel.

 

The State of Palestine is a signatory nation to all the Geneva Conventions.  The Fourth Geneva Convention in Article 28 states,  "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."   https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf    By using non-combatants  as human shields,  Hamas and ultimately the State of Palestine is violating the Geneva Convention and committing a war crime.

I’m not saying they’re innocent, but I highly doubt that bombing a hospital with patients still in it can be bombed because there’s a few terrorists hiding in there…

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

I highly doubt that. There’s no way it’s legal to bomb a hospital when there’s innocent patients in there and the same goes for schools and kindergartens. 

 

  That shows that you do not know the facts .

Its legal to bomb any location where active enemy combatants are located 

If a building is being used to fire rockets from, then it becomes a legitimate target and loses its legal protection 

 

[pacovl46]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  That shows that you do not know the facts .

Its legal to bomb any location where active enemy combatants are located 

If a building is being used to fire rockets from, then it becomes a legitimate target and loses its legal protection 

 

That still doesn’t give Israel the right to bombard it for two days and completely destroy it. They also must give an advance warning so there is time to evacuate kids/patients. And they have to take every precaution they can to avoid civilian casualties. Did Israel do that? 

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

That still doesn’t give Israel the right to bombard it for two days and completely destroy it. They also must give an advance warning so there is time to evacuate kids/patients. And they have to take every precaution they can to avoid civilian casualties. Did Israel do that? 

 

  Which attack are you referring to ?

Israel does drop leaflets and sends messages to the location of bombings

  The Hamas attacks on Israel on Oct 7 th were illegal 

[Patong2021]

On 11/16/2024 at 12:32 AM, Geir Rasch said:

This is what you get if you let fanatics rule. 😞

 

What fanatics?  The US senators referenced are not fanatics. Have you read the legislation? It is  not unreasonable. All that it says is that if the UN chooses to  isolate Israel, it should not expect the USA to fund the UN programs that have isolated Israel. For example, in 2023  Iran's was given the chair appointment for the  UN Human Rights Council Social Forum. Iran is a documented abuser of human rights, hanging teenage homosexuals from cranes in public, beating and raping of women who refuse to wear hijabs. Iran used the position to attack and to condemn Israel.  Why would you expect let alone demand that the USA pay for that? The US taxpayers as a whole object.

 

On 11/16/2024 at 1:56 AM, Srikcir said:

The 193 nation members in the UN are free contest and to vote on Israel's behavior, be it antisemitic, ethical or moral.

 

Yes, but that does not excuse countries like Afghanistan where women are enslaved, or Syria which  had 500,000+ killed at the hands of Hezbollah, Assad and Iran, or Sudan which has allowed Islamic militias to kill 100,000+ Africans and many others to attack  and to  single out Israel .

 

On 11/16/2024 at 7:41 AM, johng said:

Because they pay a lot of money,AIPAC to all those senators except

senator Thomas Massie who refused their advances and now faces a smear campaign.

 

Rubbish, Who are the senators and how much were they paid?  The Arab lobby payments dwarf the small amounts AIPAC has used for lobbying. For example the Saudis have  spent hundreds of millions in lobbying. Between 2016 and 2022,   Saudi foreign agents paid more  than $142 million in lobbying, https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2022/10/saudi-arabia-ramped-up-foreign-influence-operations-in-the-us-during-bidens-presidency/      Look at what Qatar or the UAE pays in lobbying.

 

 

On 11/16/2024 at 11:26 AM, pacovl46 said:

I see. The US are still riding Israel's d..k! It's beyond me how they can turn a blind eye at what Israel is doing to Gaza. Israel is not a victim anymore. They've become the oppressor and they're not one hair better and equally as much to blame for what's going on! 

 

The Gaza  war can end if Gaza agrees to stop firing missiles and rockets at israel and releases the hostages or  says where the  bodies of the victims are. Why would you expect Israel to not pursue the liberation of the hostages and to accept the ongoing rocket and missile attacks?

 

On 11/16/2024 at 4:19 PM, pacovl46 said:

So? Doesn't change the fact of what I've posted before. Israel bombing schools, kindergartens, hospitals and refugee camps takes precedence over US hostages in my book! Having said that, as long as Hamas and Co. resort to acts of terrorism they're not gonna get what they want. But the US have supported Israel for long enough and have a history of turning a bild eye! 

 

You  are expressing your bias. The tunnel network between hospitals and schools and the Hamas videos of their use as bunkers, munitions depots, command and control centers has been established.  The facilities stopped being civilian and became legitimate targets as soon as Hamas used them for their war.

 

 

1 minute ago, pacovl46 said:

That still doesn’t give Israel the right to bombard it for two days and completely destroy it. They also must give an advance warning so there is time to evacuate kids/patients. And they have to take every precaution they can to avoid civilian casualties. Did Israel do that? 

 

Warnings were given. Hamas wants civilian casualties. It is part of the Hamas strategy to obtain as many civilian casualties as possible so that gullible people like you will have an excuse to condemn Israel.  The vast majority of Gazans killed  were combatants or were aiding and supporting the war. Yes some women and young adults have died. Who do you think operates the radios, and worked in the command bunkers or distributed the munitions? Hamas intentionally billeted its family members in some areas to act as human shields and fired rockets and missiles from such places.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

One could say:

 To achieve its sworn goal of obliterating hamas, Israel is willing to put the lives of all Gazans- children and adults- at risk.  It's perfectly correct to, put "that all" on Israel.

Since you have shown your true colour's it's no surprise what "you" could say.

 

An expert on the matter has very different views to you.

"Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History"

 

Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613