Europe Braces for Escalation: Germany Mobilizes NATO Troops Amid Putin's Nuclear Threats

[jacob29]

11 minutes ago, jas007 said:

You don't seem to understand.  How is being dead in your best interest? 

 

How is it in Russia's interest? 

 

11 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Western leaders have lost the plot.  

Russia who you believe may initiate a nuclear strike hasn't lost the plot?

[jas007]

30 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

 

How is it in Russia's interest? 

 

Russia who you believe may initiate a nuclear strike hasn't lost the plot?

If they do, it will be in response to what they perceive to be an existential threat. That's their doctrine. They won't sit around  and wait to analyze what might be left of their nuclear capacity if they experience a "first strike."  That would be suicidal. 

 

On the other hand, we're now seeing chatter online suggesting that the US is perhaps considering transferring nuclear weapons to Ukraine.  I'm not sure who the genius is that suggested that, but I can't imagine anything more reckless,  Certainly, the transfer of such weapons to Ukraine won't insulate the US from the consequences.. We're also seeing reports of certain Navy officers openly suggesting that the West is "ready" for a nuclear exchange.   In short, the West is being reckless and irrational.  

 

Both sides need a time out.  

[transam]

Just now, jas007 said:

If they do, it will be in response to what they perceive to be an existential threat. That's their doctrine. They won't sit around  and wait to analyze what might be left of their nuclear capacity if they experience a "first strike."  That would be suicidal. 

 

On the other hand, we're now seeing chatter online suggesting that the US is perhaps considering transferring nuclear weapons to Ukraine.  I'm not sure who the genius is that suggested that, but I can't imagine anything more reckless,  Certainly, the transfer of such weapons to Ukraine won't insulate the US from the consequences.. We're also seeing reports of certain Navy officers openly suggesting that the West is "ready" for a nuclear exchange.   In short, the West is being reckless and irrational.  

 

Both sides need a time out.  

Ooooh, so it's all the West's fault now............😂

 

Not a bloke invading a sovereign nation thinking the West will do nothing.........😂

 

Not the West being ready for any possible eventuality brought on by a Tyrant........😂

 

Do you actually think the West is just sitting back doing nothing in preparation for what Putin may do next...?  😂

 

 

[jacob29]

9 minutes ago, jas007 said:

If they do, it will be in response to what they perceive to be an existential threat. That's their doctrine. They won't sit around  and wait to analyze what might be left of their nuclear capacity if they experience a "first strike."  That would be suicidal. 

Good thing Ukraine keeping their territory is not an existential threat to Russia, by any stretch of the imagination. So what are you worried about?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by Russia experiencing a first strike,

as none of the recent events even hint at that.

 

9 minutes ago, jas007 said:

On the other hand, we're now seeing chatter online suggesting that the US is perhaps considering transferring nuclear weapons to Ukraine.

You're seeing chatter, I've seen no such chatter, and I don't believe there's anything credible of that nature leaking. There has been chatter on Ukraine developing nuclear capability indigenously, and you can only blame western nations for that insofar as not providing enough assistance.

 

9 minutes ago, jas007 said:

In short, the West is being reckless and irrational.  

You can't seem to bring yourself to say Russia is being irrational. Why is that so hard? What if western nations went full mad dog like Russia, threatening nuclear strikes on capitals of Russia, NK and Iran. Would you consider that a more appropriate response?

[jas007]

16 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

You're seeing chatter, I've seen no such chatter, and I don't believe there's anything credible of that nature leaking. There has been chatter on Ukraine developing nuclear capability indigenously, and you can only blame western nations for that insofar as not providing enough assistance.

I guess you're not keeping up with your reading.  I'll post a link if I come across it again, but there's a recent article in the New York Times, citing an unnamed administration source, that the US is considering the transfer of nuclear weapons to Ukraine. IIn other words, the CIA planted the story in the hopes that it would get published.  The apparent purpose is to somehow deter Russia. 

[RayC]

On 11/25/2024 at 2:38 PM, jas007 said:

 Putin did what he did for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was to protect the Russians living in certain areas of Ukraine. I think the involvement of the US CIA in the various color revolutions was another factor,, as was the presene of corrupt Nazi elements in Ukraine.  And don't forget the history of the region within the backdrop of NATO slowly surrounding Russia.  As they say, history doesn't always repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes. Invasions of Russia typically come through Ukraine. Napoleon tried it. Hitler tried it.  Russia lost 21 million people in WW II.  They don't want a repeat. 

 

Like it or not, Russia has a legitimate sphere of influence in the region and a legitimate security interest in protecting its borders. To pretend that NATO is simply a "defensive alliance" and no threat to Russia is obvious nonsense.. 

 

 

 

We disagree completely on the fundamentals of this conflict. With the collapse of the Soviet Union (and the Warsaw Pact), the newly independent states became sovereign nations who were (should have been) free to choose their alliances. 

 

Whether Ukraine was corrupt - imo it was and what's left of it may still be - is immaterial. Internal Ukrainian politics should have remained a matter for Ukraine to deal with.

 

Ukraine was clearly looking towards the EU and NATO. No doubt, this met with the US's approval and, perhaps, the CIA lent a 'helping hand'. However, with or without US involvement, the direction of travel was clear: West not East. Also let's not pretend that Russia was standing idly by during this period, and letting events take their course; she was actively interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs.

 

Russia may have had some cause to try to protect the interests of Russian speakers in the Donbass, but that does extend to invading Ukrainian territory.

 

The idea that Russia was worried that NATO had plans to launch an invasion through Ukraine is imo frankly ridiculous.

 

Russia has a legitimate security concern in protecting its' borders but that does not extend to occupying the territory of adjacent sovereign nations. Russia's sphere of influence should be limited to its' own territory and that of the nations who, willingly, wish to align with her.

 

Imo this conflict isn't just about security. It is also about economics. A more Western (EU) orientated Ukraine poses a grave threat to the Russian economy.

[candide]

 

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

I guess you're not keeping up with your reading.  I'll post a link if I come across it again, but there's a recent article in the New York Times, citing an unnamed administration source, that the US is considering the transfer of nuclear weapons to Ukraine. IIn other words, the CIA planted the story in the hopes that it would get published.  The apparent purpose is to somehow deter Russia. 

The CIA or Russian operatives, who knows.

Edited yesterday at 10:32 AM by candide

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

On the other hand, we're now seeing chatter online

If you consider the above to be a reliable source and basis for your post then that would explain how ridiculous the rest of your post is!

Edited yesterday at 10:40 AM by scottiejohn

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

I guess you're not keeping up with your reading.  I'll post a link if I come across it again, but there's a recent article in the New York Times, citing an unnamed administration source, that the US is considering the transfer of nuclear weapons to Ukraine.

I found the article, and it's far from 'considering' doing that. The quote reads 'Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union'. In what universe, is a comment on what Biden could theoretically do, equivalent to the administration considering it?

 

Meanwhile Russian state TV announces these warnings in a direct manner. So I ask again, would you prefer a more direct approach, where state run media like RFA issued direct threats of nuclear strikes on Moscow? As you seem quite rattled by speculation by an official on what Biden could do..  while being ok with direct threats. You keep avoiding commentary on threats issued by Russia, can you at least acknowledge their destabilizing nature?

[jas007]

34 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

I found the article, and it's far from 'considering' doing that. The quote reads 'Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union'. In what universe, is a comment on what Biden could theoretically do, equivalent to the administration considering it?

 

Meanwhile Russian state TV announces these warnings in a direct manner. So I ask again, would you prefer a more direct approach, where state run media like RFA issued direct threats of nuclear strikes on Moscow? As you seem quite rattled by speculation by an official on what Biden could do..  while being ok with direct threats. You keep avoiding commentary on threats issued by Russia, can you at least acknowledge their destabilizing nature?

Let me be clear: all of the threats, by either side, are destabilizing.  What do threats accomplish?  I'm sure the world's people would like to live to see the holidays.  Threats by NATO, threats by The European Parliament, threats by the Biden Administration, threats by Russia.  It all needs to be toned down.  Nuclear was is not the answer.   I think people simply do not understand the consequences.  

 

Anyway, once it happens, once the war really begins, there will be no do-overs.  It will all be over in short order.  And the warmongers will have nowhere to hide.  

[jacob29]

38 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Let me be clear: all of the threats, by either side, are destabilizing.  What do threats accomplish?  I'm sure the world's people would like to live to see the holidays.  Threats by NATO, threats by The European Parliament, threats by the Biden Administration, threats by Russia.  It all needs to be toned down.  Nuclear was is not the answer.

That's not especially clear though, as Russia is at the end of your threat list.. yet they're the only ones issuing nuclear threats. You seem to be implying direct nuclear threats is a lesser form of escalation. Can you please clarify? Or was that in reverse order of the most irrational and reckless? If not, I would like to understand why you keep focusing on western responses, when they're clearly less threatening. Is it because western nations should know better, while Russia is a bit unhinged so we should give them a bit more latitude?

[TedG]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

Let me be clear: all of the threats, by either side, are destabilizing.  What do threats accomplish?  I'm sure the world's people would like to live to see the holidays.  Threats by NATO, threats by The European Parliament, threats by the Biden Administration, threats by Russia.  It all needs to be toned down.  Nuclear was is not the answer.   I think people simply do not understand the consequences.  

 

Anyway, once it happens, once the war really begins, there will be no do-overs.  It will all be over in short order.  And the warmongers will have nowhere to hide.  

 

Russia started this mess.  Maybe they leave Ukraine for the sake of peace.   But, the idiot Putin does not want to get egg on his face. 

[jas007]

1 hour ago, jacob29 said:

That's not especially clear though, as Russia is at the end of your threat list.. yet they're the only ones issuing nuclear threats. You seem to be implying direct nuclear threats is a lesser form of escalation. Can you please clarify? Or was that in reverse order of the most irrational and reckless? If not, I would like to understand why you keep focusing on western responses, when they're clearly less threatening. Is it because western nations should know better, while Russia is a bit unhinged so we should give them a bit more latitude?

For the purposes of discussion, let's assume that it's all Russia's fault. Everything is Russia's "fault." Their invasion of Ukraine was in no way justified, and their nuclear use directives are not helpful. Putin is an evil dictator intent on expanding Russia's border to align with the old Soviet border of 1989 and that any concern they may have in protecting their backyard is not justified,  NATO is just a nice peaceful alliance that wouldn't harm a fly. 

 

Let's further assume the Western nations are "right" in every respect.  The CIA, unlike  its usual modus operandi, is not on yet another nation building quest with the ultimate goal of plundering the target nation's resources after installing a puppet regime. 

 

Happy so far? 

 

So, it's all Russia's fault and the USA and its Western allies have clean hands. All they care about is Ukraine's "democracy,"  and Blackrock isn't already circling like a vulture, ready to steal Ukrainian resources. 

 

So what?  You still have a situation where both Russia and the USA have significant nuclear arsenals that, in any way shape or form, cannot be used without setting off a chain of events that could kill billions of people or perhaps end humanity.  

 

It doesn't matter who is making the threats or why.  No good can come of it.  The way you win is to not play the game. 

 

Part of the problem here is that the people running the USA, whoever they may be for the next 60 days, don't seem to understand that  a ground war with Russia cannot be won in 2024 or 2025.  They seem to think the military is fully ready to fight not only in Europe, but, if need be, in Asia against China, and in the Middle East against Iran.  Really?  They need a wake up call.  We have a scary situation right now.  The people at the Pentagon know the actual state of affairs, but no one seems to be listening to them. 

Edited yesterday at 01:35 PM by jas007

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

For the purposes of discussion, let's assume that it's all Russia's fault.

No let's not. I don't  want an imagined hypothetical for the purposes of discussion. I want to know why you keep blaming the west first and foremost for escalation. Is that too much to ask?

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

Happy so far? 

Not happy, as it's deflection.

 

You believe Russia has legitimate reasons to fear for their sovereignty, and that their nuclear threats are credible. Ok. So how do you think smaller non nuclear neighbours are feeling right now? Do you think they feel secure knowing there's a loose cannon next door willing to nuke them into submission?

 

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

It doesn't matter who is making the threats or why.  No good can come of it.  The way you win is to not play the game. 

The source of escalation seems to matter a great deal to you, as you keep reminding us all its first and foremost the fault of the west. There are no blameless parties here, we agree on that. However the way you see direct nuclear threats from Russia as less of an escalation, makes your position not very credible. If you're genuinely concerned about nuclear escalation, surely you would have the biggest beef with Russia?

 

1 hour ago, jas007 said:

We have a scary situation right now. 

Ukraine has a scary situation. Does Ukraine have the right to defend its borders?

[jas007]

11 hours ago, jacob29 said:

No let's not. I don't  want an imagined hypothetical for the purposes of discussion. I want to know why you keep blaming the west first and foremost for escalation. Is that too much to ask?

Not happy, as it's deflection.

 

You believe Russia has legitimate reasons to fear for their sovereignty, and that their nuclear threats are credible. Ok. So how do you think smaller non nuclear neighbours are feeling right now? Do you think they feel secure knowing there's a loose cannon next door willing to nuke them into submission?

 

The source of escalation seems to matter a great deal to you, as you keep reminding us all its first and foremost the fault of the west. There are no blameless parties here, we agree on that. However the way you see direct nuclear threats from Russia as less of an escalation, makes your position not very credible. If you're genuinely concerned about nuclear escalation, surely you would have the biggest beef with Russia?

 

Ukraine has a scary situation. Does Ukraine have the right to defend its borders?

It's obvious that you miss my point. You don't get it.  You probably never will. You want to argue a point I was willing to concede.  Possibly because you're raising a red herring? 

 

These matters used to be dealt with through diplomacy.  And yet that seems to be a thing of the past.  The West seems has thrown all that out the window.  In its place, we have people making threats.  Not only the politicians, but military leaders. 

 

At some point, reality will make an appearance.  We all better hope that that happens and there's a change of direction towards diplomacy sometime before the war is escalated to the point of no return.  

Edited 11 hours ago by jas007

[transam]

2 hours ago, jas007 said:

It's obvious that you miss my point. You don't get it.  You probably never will. You want to argue a point I was willing to concede.  Possibly because you're raising a red herring? 

 

These matters used to be dealt with through diplomacy.  And yet that seems to be a thing of the past.  The West seems has thrown all that out the window.  In its place, we have people making threats.  Not only the politicians, but military leaders. 

 

At some point, reality will make an appearance.  We all better hope that that happens and there's a change of direction towards diplomacy sometime before the war is escalated to the point of no return.  

Russia (CCCP) negotiated with Hitler, what happened.........

It is very hard to negotiate when you are dealing with a tyrant, it seems the only way out is to show them they are on a loser, the nuke thing doesn't come into the equation either, nobody wins, even Putin knows that, though he may want to go out with a bang, as he is on a sticky wicket with his own.........

[jas007]

25 minutes ago, transam said:

Russia (CCCP) negotiated with Hitler, what happened.........

It is very hard to negotiate when you are dealing with a tyrant, it seems the only way out is to show them they are on a loser, the nuke thing doesn't come into the equation either, nobody wins, even Putin knows that, though he may want to go out with a bang, as he is on a sticky wicket with his own.........

Neither Hitler nor Russia had nukes during WW II.  Had they both had nukes, who knows what would have happened? History would be different. 

 

It may be "hard" to negotiate with a tyrant, as you say, but now that both sides have nukes, that's the way to go. Negotiation. Diplomacy. Arms treaties. We used to have those, but they went by the wayside and now we're about to see what happens when there is no negotiation and no diplomacy.  That's the Neocon paint of view.  Just press on with the nonsense and don't negotiate, ever.  Threats and escalation.  A recipe for disaster.  

 

[metisdead]

Posts with derogatory nicknames, intentional misspellings, or personal remarks will be removed. Spell names correctly for all sides of the debate.

[transam]

23 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Neither Hitler nor Russia had nukes during WW II.  Had they both had nukes, who knows what would have happened? History would be different. 

 

It may be "hard" to negotiate with a tyrant, as you say, but now that both sides have nukes, that's the way to go. Negotiation. Diplomacy. Arms treaties. We used to have those, but they went by the wayside and now we're about to see what happens when there is no negotiation and no diplomacy.  That's the Neocon paint of view.  Just press on with the nonsense and don't negotiate, ever.  Threats and escalation.  A recipe for disaster.  

 

Hitler had rockets, sending many to the UK, developing something more destructive to put in them. He was years ahead with his war tools.

 

But, my point was you cannot deal with an aggressive tyrant unless they realise they are stuffed, I reckon Putin is now realising he is near stuffed.

 

Inviting N.Korea, what a joke, plus, if provoked, the West could unleash the death knell using conventional weapons on Putin.........

 

You do not give in to tyrants........... 

[jas007]

1 hour ago, transam said:

You do not give in to tyrants........... 

It's not "giving in" to negotiate, to use diplomacy.  It's a recognition of reality.  Escalation and trading threats will end badly in the context of an ongoing war with where both sides have thousands of nukes.  

 

I realize that's not a popular viewpoint with some people.  One time, years ago, I took a course called "The Documentary Tradition" at the NYU film school. It was taught by some bald Jewish guy from the BBC. I guess he was in New York for some reason that year.  Anyway, he knew his stuff and he knew propaganda, and if there's one thing the BBC is good at, it's propaganda.  

 

I forget the context at this point, but I remember his saying:  "Everybody knows, you don't make deals with Fascists."  Maybe that was the lesson of WW II, but I think today that attitude is problematic.  

 

[jacob29]

5 hours ago, jas007 said:

It's obvious that you miss my point. You don't get it.  You probably never will. You want to argue a point I was willing to concede.  Possibly because you're raising a red herring? 

 

These matters used to be dealt with through diplomacy.  And yet that seems to be a thing of the past.  The West seems has thrown all that out the window. 

You didn't seem to concede anything, you posited a hypothetical. Why do you get triggered over such a basic question, and you continue to evade it saying I miss your point? I'm not seeking a concession, I want to understand why you keep piling the blame on the west instead of Russia. You talk about lack of negotiation, yet there again western nations didn't turn this into a hot war. Russia did. Do you believe western nations should be more accommodative of Russia - than they are of Ukraine. Perhaps treat them like the state equivalent of a special needs child? No hypothetical, no analogy, no interpretive dance, just give me a straight answer.

[candide]

2 hours ago, jas007 said:

Neither Hitler nor Russia had nukes during WW II.  Had they both had nukes, who knows what would have happened? History would be different. 

 

It may be "hard" to negotiate with a tyrant, as you say, but now that both sides have nukes, that's the way to go. Negotiation. Diplomacy. Arms treaties. We used to have those, but they went by the wayside and now we're about to see what happens when there is no negotiation and no diplomacy.  That's the Neocon paint of view.  Just press on with the nonsense and don't negotiate, ever.  Threats and escalation.  A recipe for disaster.  

 

Obviously, Putin did not choose the negotiation way to settle its disagreements with Ukraine....

[jas007]

30 minutes ago, candide said:

Obviously, Putin did not choose the negotiation way to settle its disagreements with Ukraine....

At one point, I think they actually had an agreement initialed and ready to go.  Then, Boris Johnson flew to Kiev and were all know how that turned out.  The agreement didn't go forward and hundreds of thousand of Ukrainian casualties resulted from the continuation of hostilities. 

[transam]

12 minutes ago, jas007 said:

At one point, I think they actually had an agreement initialed and ready to go.  Then, Boris Johnson flew to Kiev and were all know how that turned out.  The agreement didn't go forward and hundreds of thousand of Ukrainian casualties resulted from the continuation of hostilities. 

Now it's all Boris Johnson's fault..........

 

Pointless talking to an invader apologist/supporting fruitcake..........

[jas007]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Now it's all Boris Johnson's fault..........

 

Pointless talking to an invader apologist/supporting fruitcake..........

Boris Johnson was just an errand boy at that point, right? 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Boris Johnson was just an errand boy at that point, right? 

Silly post, Boris and many other World leaders visited Ukraine to show support for the country that was invaded for no reason by a dictator....😉

 

Do you understand that........?   🤔

[jas007]

2 hours ago, jacob29 said:

You didn't seem to concede anything, you posited a hypothetical. Why do you get triggered over such a basic question, and you continue to evade it saying I miss your point? I'm not seeking a concession, I want to understand why you keep piling the blame on the west instead of Russia. You talk about lack of negotiation, yet there again western nations didn't turn this into a hot war. Russia did. Do you believe western nations should be more accommodative of Russia - than they are of Ukraine. Perhaps treat them like the state equivalent of a special needs child? No hypothetical, no analogy, no interpretive dance, just give me a straight answer.

Assume, arguendo.  I conceded your point for the purpose of argument.  

 

And I'm not evading anything. Nor was I "triggered."

 

I'm not the one playing the blame game here.  That's you, that's the trick of the Western leaders these days, and they're playing that game as a means of deflecting responsibility.  It's always someone else's fault, right?  And that's the problem. That's why this war is escalating. And that's why this issue is now moot, in my mind. The real question is how to get out of this mess. The Western leaders have expended too much political capital at this point.  And because of their mentality, they aren't about to start any kind of diplomacy.  "You don't give in to tyrants."  That seems to be the argument.  It's not our fault, it's the tyrant's fault.  

 

So we've passed that point in the conflict, I think.  What's the way forward? We had better hope some responsible adults appear very soon. Adults who recognize the need for diplomacy. 

 

As for "piling the blame on the West"?  Historically, that's exactly where it lies.  One failed fiasco after another, going back at least as far as the Vietnam war. Of course, back then those in charge used the "Domino Theory" to justify the war.  We all know how that turned out.  Today, we have the Neocons and they've done nothing but bankrupt America with one failed venture after another. Even against small, less powerful adversaries, everything they touched eventually turned bad. And now they've upped the ante and have Russia as their target.  They play the plane game and ignore history. They ignore world history, they ignore the history of Eastern Europe, and they pretend the Putin simply woke up one fine morning and decided to invade Ukraine, without provocation simply because he's a tyrant.  A convenient way to deflect blame from themselves, but not at all helpful if a solution is to be found. 

[jas007]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Silly post, Boris and many other World leaders visited Ukraine to show support for the country that was invaded for no reason by a dictator....😉

 

Do you understand that........?   🤔

Do you understand the timing of Johnson's visit?  Significant, I think.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Do you understand the timing of Johnson's visit?  Significant, I think.

🙄..........You would, a Putin supporter...........

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/26/2024 at 2:31 AM, jas007 said:

Like it or not, countries are where they are and can't be moved around.  Eastern Europe has been in conflict for centuries. It's an important area.

Not just eastern Europe. Europe has been in conflict ever since the arrival of humans 50,000 years or so ago. It's in the nature of humanity to fight other people.

Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog for an insight of what is to come.

Having developed nukes, it's just a matter of time before the last dance happens and the fat lady sings for the once human species. IMO.