Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

Not all. I am an example where I have worked in multiple countries around the world on international type contracts where taxes in those countries were handled by agents, not usually shown to me, and my only TIN available is from Thailand where I had to go and ask for one to show my overseas banks as ID.

I didn't say all, I said many people.

 

I also have worked for various employers around the world and whilst my employer or their agent nearly always managed my tax affairs, in the first instance, I was always assigned a TIN equivalent because that's the only was my taxes could be paid in that country. In some cases I stayed on in those countries and filed my own returns, using the numbers issued when I first arrived. If you've been paid in a foreign country and have had local tax deducted, you will have a TIN equivalent although you may not know what it is.

[Enzian]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

 

Just curious, shouldn't all expats have a TIN from their home country of citizenship? If not, how did one grow up and work in their own home country without a Tax ID?

Reasonable observation. But I want to point out that for Americans that number is their Social Security number, and we have to be very careful with it because it is connected to so many things. I would not want to share mine with the Thai government unless I absolutely had to.

On a different detail, all this year till now I have remitted to LOS only monies from a dedicated account in the US that I can show has no other activity than deposits from the US SSA. This month I remitted 50K THB from a business account following statements in these forums that 60K is the threshold of assessable income requiring the filing of a Thai return. This leaves more in the SS account for next year when things may heat up more. I have a pink card but have no intention of activating the number on it unless directed by a bona fide authority to do so. 

[Moonlover]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Mr Hart made a specific video about the guy who said " All Foreigners need to obtain a TIN " Cannot remember the guys name,

I'm sure that the person you are referring to is Tax expert (?) Thomas Carden who was the subject of this post (see below) a while ago. In my view his comments and the posting thereof was totally irresponsible.

 

It was this post that prompted me open this thread as a retort.

 

I have long since made my mind up that all this tax talk is just a load hype stemming from an unfounded rumour that started about a year ago.

 

Mr. Hart's comments are, in my book, very, very welcome.

 

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I'm sure that the person you are referring to is Tax expert (?) Thomas Carden who was the subject of this post (see below) a while ago. In my view his comments and the posting thereof was totally irresponsible.

 

Yes, I think that was his name. And yes, it was irresponsible to say that all expats need to get TIN's and file tax returns.

 

Which is obviously complete claptrap.

 

13 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I have long since made my mind up that all this tax talk is just a load hype stemming from an unfounded rumour that started about a year ago.

 

Up to you, as they say.

 

All issues relating to CRS are not rumour. The Royal Act relating to the adoption of CRS was published in March 2023.

 

POR 161 / 162 effectively eliminates a loophole that existed previously, including foreigners, and became effective from 01 Jan 2024.

 

The RD Code is quite specific for anyone who is a tax resident ( 180 days or over ) of Thailand.

 

Cannot speak for anyone else, but the 2 bodies that I will go out my way to avoid conflict with, is Immigration and ( Not limited to Thailand ) a Tax Authority.

[Jingthing]

I've been back and forth on this taxation brouhaha but I finally decided it's worth it (at least for myself) to dig into the actual details of the situation. 

Then I can make more informed decisions about whether and when to take any actions. and even do the best I can to do some actual tax planning.

I am very annoyed that now on top of US tax planning (remember the US IRS never lets us go) I have to combine that with Thailand tax planning and things do get complicated.

So I did my research, I will do more, and I'll probably eventually meet with a Thai tax lawyer (some offer free consultations). 

So far knowing more has helped me. 

I will have zero chance of any issues for this tax year, not needing a TIN, not needing to file, and not needing to pay tax.

For next tax year depending on my actions, I still probably will be in the same boat.

But the year after that, based on what I know now about my own specific income sources that I plan to transfer in, then I'll probably need to be in the system.

The beauty of my delayed strategy, is that by the time I may need to be in the system, we'll all know much more about how this is being enforced (or not enforced). 

[scubascuba3]

6 hours ago, homeseeker said:

There are rumors circulating that complaints have been lodged about non-Thai unqualified persons giving false and misleading tax information and advice and that arrest warrants may be issued soon...

Maybe people on this forum?

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Maybe people on this forum?

 

Cannot say that I have seen anyone giving specific tax advise.

 

I have seen people, including me, giving their opinion on information that is freely available to the public.

 

The Thai Revenue Code.

 

CRS

 

DTA's

[James105]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I've been back and forth on this taxation brouhaha but I finally decided it's worth it (at least for myself) to dig into the actual details of the situation. 

Then I can make more informed decisions about whether and when to take any actions. and even do the best I can to do some actual tax planning.

I am very annoyed that now on top of US tax planning (remember the US IRS never lets us go) I have to combine that with Thailand tax planning and things do get complicated.

So I did my research, I will do more, and I'll probably eventually meet with a Thai tax lawyer (some offer free consultations). 

So far knowing more has helped me. 

I will have zero chance of any issues for this tax year, not needing a TIN, not needing to file, and not needing to pay tax.

For next tax year depending on my actions, I still probably will be in the same boat.

But the year after that, based on what I know now about my own specific income sources that I plan to transfer in, then I'll probably need to be in the system.

The beauty of my delayed strategy, is that by the time I may need to be in the system, we'll all know much more about how this is being enforced (or not enforced). 

 

Every now and again this topic raises its head enough for me to notice and I think I am in similar waters (except IRS).  My strategy was to transfer enough cash to last me 2 years at the end of last year and see what happens, with a view to spending 180 days outside of Thailand in year 3 when I then replenish the bank account with another 2 years worth of spending without incurring Thai tax.   Like all the best, most meticulously laid out plans, it didn't meet with the reality so my 2 years worth of cash looks like it will last about 1.5 years.

 

It's already been a year now since they announced this and I still have no idea if what I would classify as "savings" (income accrued overseas prior to 2024) is classified by Thailand as "income" when remitted into Thailand and subject to tax, so I am not optimistic I will be any the wiser in 1, 2 or 3 years time.  

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Maybe people on this forum?

Give it a rest! Nobody here is making money from giving their opinions on tax, the video is quite clearly aimed at those people who are and who are in business for that purpose. You also have to ask yourself, if "visa "agents" are allowed to go around charging high fees so that people can have dodgy visa's, and they don't get arrested, people on social networking who are trying to help others certainly wont.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Every now and again this topic raises its head enough for me to notice and I think I am in similar waters (except IRS).  My strategy was to transfer enough cash to last me 2 years at the end of last year and see what happens, with a view to spending 180 days outside of Thailand in year 3 when I then replenish the bank account with another 2 years worth of spending without incurring Thai tax.   Like all the best, most meticulously laid out plans, it didn't meet with the reality so my 2 years worth of cash looks like it will last about 1.5 years.

 

It's already been a year now since they announced this and I still have no idea if what I would classify as "savings" (income accrued overseas prior to 2024) is classified by Thailand as "income" when remitted into Thailand and subject to tax, so I am not optimistic I will be any the wiser in 1, 2 or 3 years time.  

Por 162 is very clear that any income earned before 31 December 2023 is not taxable.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, James105 said:

 

Every now and again this topic raises its head enough for me to notice and I think I am in similar waters (except IRS).  My strategy was to transfer enough cash to last me 2 years at the end of last year and see what happens, with a view to spending 180 days outside of Thailand in year 3 when I then replenish the bank account with another 2 years worth of spending without incurring Thai tax.   Like all the best, most meticulously laid out plans, it didn't meet with the reality so my 2 years worth of cash looks like it will last about 1.5 years.

 

It's already been a year now since they announced this and I still have no idea if what I would classify as "savings" (income accrued overseas prior to 2024) is classified by Thailand as "income" when remitted into Thailand and subject to tax, so I am not optimistic I will be any the wiser in 1, 2 or 3 years time.  

Money in the bank that you can document was in the bank December 31, 2023 can be transferred into Thailand ANY TIME going forward regardless of source.

I don't understand why that part of it is that complicated.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Por 162 is very clear that any income earned before 31 December 2023 is not taxable.

Money in the bank regardless.

But that does NOT apply to money in the bank AFTER that date.

Going forward starting Jan 1 2024 you need to know the actual source and be able to prove it. That does get complicated. Well you need to know if you're audited. Or you can just hope you're never audited. 

The way I'm dealing with this is that i plan to transfer in the exact amount that was in my transferring account December 31, 2023. That seems like the cleanest way to start fresh. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Money in the bank regardless.

But that does NOT apply for money in the bank AFTER that date.

The poster didn't talk about after, he spoke only about before:

 

"I still have no idea if what I would classify as "savings" (income accrued overseas prior to 2024) is classified by Thailand as "income" when remitted into Thailand".

 

But even funds remitted after 31/12/2023 are well categorised, they are either exempt by virtue of Pir 161/162, exempt by virtue of a DTA or they are assessable. That those funds might have been taxed overseas and that tax can be used as an offset here, is another matter. But funds that are created after 31/12/2023 fall into one of the three I first mentioned. Savings don't just get created out of thin air, they are income first. 

[nglodnig]

6 hours ago, Pouatchee said:

legitimate don't mean competent. I dealt with this company and they are far below par.

I asked this company for a quote for a pair of wills - 50k baht - for a Word template document that just needs names adding.

 

I informed them what to do with their quote.

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The poster didn't talk about after, he spoke only about before:

 

"I still have no idea if what I would classify as "savings" (income accrued overseas prior to 2024) is classified by Thailand as "income" when remitted into Thailand".

 

But even funds remitted after 31/12/2023 are well categorised, they are either exempt by virtue of Pir 161/162, exempt by virtue of a DTA or they are assessable. That those funds might have been taxed overseas and that tax can be used as an offset here, is another matter. But funds that are created after 31/12/2023 fall into one of the three I first mentioned. Savings don't just get created out of thin air, they are income first. 

OK.

Money AFTER that date can be complicated even very complicated if any of that money is classified as tax accessible by Thailand if transferred in. Many lucky people only have non accessible sources and those people once they determine that can really forget all about this (except to keep documents if audited) unless there is a major change later like global taxation. So I think it's worth it to learn the details because for many it really will be very good news. Not bothering to explore this and just worrying in ignorance would then be just silly. 

[James105]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Money in the bank that you can document was in the bank December 31, 2023 can be transferred into Thailand ANY TIME going forward regardless of source.

I don't understand why that part of it is that complicated.

 

So on that basis I could use the balance of my investments and bank accounts as at the end of 2023 and be confident that I can transfer up to that amount into Thailand over the next several years/decades without any of it being taxable in Thailand?  I didn't realize it was that simple.   

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

 

So on that basis I could use the balance of my investments and bank accounts as at the end of 2023 and be confident that I can transfer up to that amount into Thailand over the next several years/decades without any of it being taxable in Thailand?  I didn't realize it was that simple.   

No! Not your investments. Money in the bank only. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

 

So on that basis I could use the balance of my investments and bank accounts as at the end of 2023 and be confident that I can transfer up to that amount into Thailand over the next several years/decades without any of it being taxable in Thailand?  I didn't realize it was that simple.   

That is correct, mostly, but the funds must be in cash as of that date. You cannot for example own a house and take the value of it at 31/12/2023 and assume that is tax exempt when the house is old and the funds are remitted.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

That is correct, mostly, but the funds must be in cash as of that date. You cannot for example own a house and take the value of it at 31/12/2023 and assume that is tax exempt when the house is old and the funds are remitted.

It's not really correct.

Let's say you have brokerage account of stocks and bonds with a value of 100K USD December 31, 2023.

That would not be covered at all. 

 

[James105]

Just now, Jingthing said:

No! Not your investments. Money in the bank only. 

 

Ok thats fine as I have never been efficient at moving money from bank to investment anyway.   So (and I am exaggerating for absolute clarity here I don't have this much money - sadly) if I have a £10 million bank balance in a UK bank account as at 31 December 2023 I can transfer up to £10 million into Thailand over the next several years/decades and I am not required to pay 1 single baht in tax on it?  

[chiang mai]

Just now, Jingthing said:

It's not really correct.

Let's say you have brokerage account of stocks and bonds with a value of 100K USD December 31, 2023.

That would not be covered at all. 

 

If the funds in the brokerage account were all in cash (mine are sometimes) then there is no issue. I used the example of a house, the same applies to any form of invested capital that comprises a capital gain.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, James105 said:

 

Ok thats fine as I have never been efficient at moving money from bank to investment anyway.   So (and I am exaggerating for absolute clarity here I don't have this much money - sadly) if I have a £10 million bank balance in a UK bank account as at 31 December 2023 I can transfer up to £10 million into Thailand over the next several years/decades and I am not required to pay 1 single baht in tax on it?  

Yes

[saintdomingo]

46 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Money in the bank that you can document was in the bank December 31, 2023 can be transferred into Thailand ANY TIME going forward regardless of source.

I don't understand why that part of it is that complicated.

And "document" means an overseas bank statement.??

[NoDisplayName]

18 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

who I assume are legitimate

 

These aren't the folks who run a website masquerading as the Thai embassy...........

[NoDisplayName]

56 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Money in the bank regardless.

But that does NOT apply to money in the bank AFTER that date.

 

Yes..........."money" in the "bank."

38 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's not really correct.

Let's say you have brokerage account of stocks and bonds with a value of 100K USD December 31, 2023.

That would not be covered at all. 

 

 

Depends on interpretation.

 

That same section of the tax law also makes reference to the percentages of initial capital and capital gains, and that any recognized accounting method can be used to remit funds, if used consistently.

 

How that works in the really world is unknown.

 

We still self-determine what if any remitted funds are assessable, so until someone reports being audited and required to prove funds as of Dec 31,2023, and reports on how prior capital and gains are calculated and taxed, we're still guessing.

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes..........."money" in the "bank."

 

Depends on interpretation.

 

That same section of the tax law also makes reference to the percentages of initial capital and capital gains, and that any recognized accounting method can be used to remit funds, if used consistently.

 

How that works in the really world is unknown.

 

We still self-determine what if any remitted funds are assessable, so until someone reports being audited and required to prove funds as of Dec 31,2023, and reports on how prior capital and gains are calculated and taxed, we're still guessing.

Well, we're certainly not guessing about any income earned prior to 31/12/2023.

 

And we're not guessing about savings interest earned overseas since then.

 

All that remains to be uncertain is the treatment of capital gains earned either before or after 31/12 2023.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

If the funds in the brokerage account were all in cash (mine are sometimes) then there is no issue. I used the example of a house, the same applies to any form of invested capital that comprises a capital gain.

Investments implies NOT cash. 

But getting into the weeds, I really don't know how things like CDs and related vehicles would be considered.

This is why people should look closely at their specific sitation as we all handle money differently. 

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, saintdomingo said:

And "document" means an overseas bank statement.??

I can't answer that but definitely at least that.

The complications come into play when you're MIXING the type of money in the source accounts.

My understanding is that FIRST IN. FIRST OUT is accepted.

[The Cyclist]

28 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

These aren't the folks who run a website masquerading as the Thai embassy...........

 

Sorry, you have lost me with that one.

 

Would you mind explaining.

[Jingthing]

29 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes..........."money" in the "bank."

 

Depends on interpretation.

 

That same section of the tax law also makes reference to the percentages of initial capital and capital gains, and that any recognized accounting method can be used to remit funds, if used consistently.

 

How that works in the really world is unknown.

 

We still self-determine what if any remitted funds are assessable, so until someone reports being audited and required to prove funds as of Dec 31,2023, and reports on how prior capital and gains are calculated and taxed, we're still guessing.

I think this example is already clear.

Say you own 100 shares of Dildonex stock and have owned them for 10 years.

You sell the shares anytime starting Jan 1. 2024.

If there is a loss -- nothing accessible in Thaiand.

If there is a profit the portion that is transferred is tax accessible as capital gains PLUS you can apply your double taxation agreement as a credit (if applicable).

For example if your home country tax is higher and there is a DTA for your country, no Thai tax, but I still think supposed to be reported.

So yeah things can get complicated.

I predict most people (if this is enforced) will end up spending more money on lawyers than the actual tax, if any.

Very annoying of course.