Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Neeranam]

59 minutes ago, Presnock said:

what you fail to understand is the Thai revenue dept definition of a tax resident - more than 179 days in a calendar year. 

What you fail to understand is that this is for Thai people. They don't care about foreigners.

[MikeandDow]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Says who? I advise foreign retirees to do nothing, the RD are not interested in them in the slightest, their Thai bank is not interested in whether or not they are registered with Thai RD. It is only charlatan foreign agents who are spreading the misinformation for their own profit. There is nothing much in the Thai media/social networks about low income people, apart from some menial workers abroad wondering if they have to pay tax in Thailand, which they don't. The removal of the loophole and for Thais with foreign income is only relevant to very rich people remitting sums of say 10 million baht regularly, this is when the bank may raise an eyebrow; they are not under any obligation to report people to the tax authorities. 

Foreign retirees remitting 100k baht a month or whatever is of NO interest to Thailand whatsoever, except the bottom dwellers preying on old, naive farang. 

In fact, if you stupidly go and get a Thai tax ID number, you are doing more harm than good, but giving the message to Thai government that you want to pay something. 

Very good post

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

The removal of the loophole and for Thais with foreign income is only relevant to very rich people remitting sums of say 10 million baht regularly,

 

Wealthy Thais have friends in the government to protect them through legislation, and ways of moving large sums tax-free through trusts and family-owned businesses.

 

I suspect this was aimed at the tens of thousands Thai workers outside the country remitting their higher than average salaries back to Thailand.  That's assuming the 179-day tax residency rules applies to Thais working abroad.

 

In the 2024 fiscal year, 67,208 job seekers have been sent to work abroad. The estimated income only for the 2024 fiscal year from Thai workers abroad sent to Thailand through the Bank of Thailand’s system is 181,492 million Baht.

https://www.mol.go.th/en/news/labour-minister-continues-to-send-thai-people-to-work-abroad-most-recently-over-200-workers-were-sent-to-japan-and-taiwan-totaling-67700-people

[Neeranam]

This whole  nonsense reminds of some people I knew who thought they had to get an alien certificate, which was actually required by law(but ignored) until a few years ago -  only migrant workers were routinely asked for their alien cert, never farang. These foreigners were told they didn't need it as it would cause so much work for district office personnel, as well as they don't like speaking to foreigners/tourists who are not fluent in Thai.

Some lawyer who lived near me, got a bee in his bonnet and upset  the local amphur by demanding that foreigners get the pink card that migrant workers must get. This caused a lot of confusion where foreigners now go through hoops to get something that is practically useless, and Thai people laugh at(farang having a card the same as their Loatian labourer or Burmese maid)

 

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

100 percent.

However, there is that one change we know about which apparently was something like a memo.

It was about the timing of remittances.

Used to be previous year earnings were all exempt.

The memo said no longer the case  -- loophole closed.

Can a policy change like that really be changed that way without passing a law?

Buggered if I know! 

 

Well the initial policy was created by a memo back in the 1980s and then rescinded with another memo in 2023.
 

I believe they attempted to go after someone going against the grain of the 1980s memo but failed in court - and that's what made it official.

I'm still expecting someone to challenge this new memo / series of memos but that might take a very long time.

You are completely correct though - they alter their interpretations of the laws by issuing memos here.

[Jonathan Swift]

I don't think any US bank is going to hand over banking information just because Thailand asks for it. There is due process required and layers of privacy/security protections. 

[Jonathan Swift]

I'm surprised nothing was said about US Social Security and similar types of pensions. I have read the law which states that US SS is exempt, and was told by a tax attorney that as such I don't need to file. I believe him. I don't think that the beaurocracy wants the coming avalanche of paperwork to be any larger than it has to be, and I don't think they're motivated to hunt down exempt lower income individuals just to get them to file. Just my opinion based on my information thus far.  

[redwood1]

1 minute ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I don't think any US bank is going to hand over banking information just because Thailand asks for it. There is due process required and layers of privacy/security protections. 

 

 

Right you are.......To even check you own balance in your own bank now requires a few levels of verification......

 

No way.....Will foreign banks be sharing private banking information with the Thai tax office........NOT EVER....

[Jonathan Swift]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:28 PM, Airalee said:

Carden urged expats to carefully review double taxation treaties between Thailand and their home countries but noted these are not blanket exemptions.

So my blankets are, or are not, exempt? 

[Jonathan Swift]

8 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

 

Right you are.......To even check you own balance in your own bank now requires a few levels of verification......

 

No way.....Will foreign banks be sharing private banking information with the Thai tax office........NOT EVER....

I had to learn the hard way to arrange for no phone verification to be used with my US banking from here, only written security questions, no sms OTP codes sent to my US phone. I used to have trouble using my US bank cards here - my bank's security would try to call me to verify the transactions because charges from Thailand, if I didn't notify the bank in advance, would trigger the system,  and of course I don't answer my US number when here, and my cards got deactivated, leading to some terse conversations with my bank. 

[Jonathan Swift]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan Swift said:

So my blankets are, or are not, exempt? 

Only if they're made in Thailand

[StayinThailand2much]

1 hour ago, MikeandDow said:

Sensible post !!  asked wife a long time ago (15yrs) why not pay Tax ?? she shrugged "My Money not goverment. wait policeman come arrest me " she is still waiting !!  think i will take my wife's advice

 

Neither a policeman, nor a tax inspector will come knocking on an expat's door because they didn't file a tax report. What will happen in the future, in regards to visa extensions, or bank accounts, is a different story though.

[MikeandDow]

Just now, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Neither a policeman, nor a tax inspector will come knocking on an expat's door because they didn't file a tax report. What will happen in the future, in regards to visa extensions, or bank accounts, is a different story though.

yep that might cause a slight problem but,!!  Thailand is a courupt country and Thai's are greedy so let it play out

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Jonathan Swift said:

I'm surprised nothing was said about US Social Security and similar types of pensions. I have read the law which states that US SS is exempt, and was told by a tax attorney that as such I don't need to file. I believe him. I don't think that the beaurocracy wants the coming avalanche of paperwork to be any larger than it has to be, and I don't think they're motivated to hunt down exempt lower income individuals just to get them to file. Just my opinion based on my information thus far.  

Right.

Social security is exempt.

 

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

The missing piece is the ........................"...."

 

There are no direct quotations, none of the words on the page actually came out of the director's mouth.

 

The few statements that might be attributed to him were paraphrased.

 

Padding was padded, filling was filled to achieve word count.

 

When you file in the US (or wherever), do you follow the regulations on the IRS website, or do you file based on last week's "10 Things To Know About Taxes" annual filler article in Newsweek?

 

 

 

 

I'm sure we will hear more from the Director General before the the 31st March.  Particularly as his brief seems to be broadening Thailand's tax base.  Hopefully, his statements will be published by a credible media source.  

 

Until then, unless he comes out and makes bold statements like, for example, "foreigners remitting a pension DO NOT have to file" or similar very direct and concise statements, I will be filing and declaring.

 

I will pay this year, but if I feel it's a rip off, it's 179 days in Thailand, and the rest in Vietnam.   

[redwood1]

4 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

yep that might cause a slight problem but,!!  Thailand is a courupt country and Thai's are greedy so let it play out

 

Yep not hardly a single day goes by in Thailand without the VAST VAST corruption in all levels of government being exposed.....And besides, dodging taxes in Thailand is a national sport.....Especially for the very wealthy who avoid paying taxes like the plague........

[mahjongguy]

The mention of US IRA accounts caught my eye.  I wonder if this issue is clear: if I take a distribution from my IRA every penny of it will get taxed by the IRS as ordinary income. That is to say "at full rate".  

 

If I don't transfer that money to Thailand is it assessable?  Cannot be, right?

[Jonathan Swift]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Says who? I advise foreign retirees to do nothing, the RD are not interested in them in the slightest, their Thai bank is not interested in whether or not they are registered with Thai RD. It is only charlatan foreign agents who are spreading the misinformation for their own profit. There is nothing much in the Thai media/social networks about low income people, apart from some menial workers abroad wondering if they have to pay tax in Thailand, which they don't. The removal of the loophole and for Thais with foreign income is only relevant to very rich people remitting sums of say 10 million baht regularly, this is when the bank may raise an eyebrow; they are not under any obligation to report people to the tax authorities. 

Foreign retirees remitting 100k baht a month or whatever is of NO interest to Thailand whatsoever, except the bottom dwellers preying on old, naive farang. 

In fact, if you stupidly go and get a Thai tax ID number, you are doing more harm than good, but giving the message to Thai government that you want to pay something. 

You're making the most sense here, and it follows what my own research has turned up, including direct advice from a Thai tax expert. I think every country is the same in that it's just not worth their while to go after small potatoes and chump change. Big fish have a bigger payoff per man/hour. Simple math. In the US most of my income since  1989 was cash and undeclared. After that it was Social Security, a very low amount below the poverty line - $1675/month now, and I have to add to that from savings in order to meet the 65,000 baht/month visa requirement. haven't filed a tax return in the US since 1989. Still not in jail. I think what it boils down to is, if you're not wealthy, and don't draw attention to yourself, you've got no worries. Thanks for your clarity and very useful post. I hope others are smart enough and can stop arguing long enough to listen. 

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, koolkarl said:

The foreigners in Thailand, especially the retirees, are sitting ducks.  Canada is part of the OECD and CRS agreement for years and if

you lived in Canada, you would have to report your world income, same as coming to Thailand.  But at least Canada makes you a legal immigrant and gives you health care for what that is worth there. Here, you will just get laughed at.

I agree. 

 

You could live here for 20 years, have a wife, children, a house, a car, a business, investments, and you will have no more rights or access to services than a tourists on a 30 day visa exemption stamp. 

 

Now, they want you to pay more money to still have the same zero rights and access as a tourist.  Yes, it is laughable. 

 

For some, it will make more economic sense to become a tourist in Thailand for 179 days a year. 

[samtam]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

The 60K allowance is automatic.  Wife and I file joint (although we don't have to file at all), and got 120K.

 

Take a look at the English forms on the TRD website, as they mostly match up with the Thai versions.  No 2024 of course, but 2023 should be approximately the same.  That should tell you where to find the 100K pension allowance.

 

I think the bank interest goes in section 3 for 40(4) income.   You need to enter total interest received, total tax withheld, and your bank's TIN.

 

You can download the English instructions from the website.  And if I remember correctly, you fill in the amounts and section 11 tax computation is completed by the system.  I did not declare a pension, so don't know if that 100K allowance is automatic also.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

You can use PromptPay if your bank account is linked to your pink ID.  My local Bangkok Bank won't do that, so I have to wait a couple weeks for a refund letter, which must be redeemed at KrungThai Bank.

 

***EDIT***

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/220367PIT90.pdf

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/GUIDE_90_66_Complete.pdf

 

Check section 1.  Your pension goes in line 1.  Scroll down a bit to line 5....that seems to be the 100K expense allowance. 

 

No. 1 item 5.
Enter allowable expense equal to 50% of the amount stated in item 4. but not exceeding 100,000 baht. If you and your spouse both have income and you are filing jointly, you and your spouse can each deduct expense as stated above. Thus, the maximum allowable expense is 200,000 baht in this case.

 

 

Anyone know if this means a married couple can take a 200K expense allowance on a remitted pension IF spouse has income???

 

 

 

 

NOTICE:  THIS IS OPINION ONLY.  NOT ADVICE.  FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY

 

Thank you for your patience (with my endless questions), and for your helpful replies. I have read the guidelines from your link. Unfortunately nothing regarding how you claim back withholding tax on deposit interest.

 

Quote

I think the bank interest goes in section 3 for 40(4) income.   You need to enter total interest received, total tax withheld, and your bank's TIN.

 

Here is section 3 for 40(04) income:

 

It doesn't seem to give me the options I require to insert interest paid, tax withheld, TIN of paying bank.

However, on the front of the form is this box, below, which allows for the claim, but with no box for details.

 

Quote

That should tell you where to find the 100K pension allowance.

 

Yes, I've found that per the photo below, having read the guidelines.

 

I think the THB190,000 deduction for over 65s is in the Tax Computation section, no 11 2. "Less allowances etc".

 

Plus my personal allowance of THB60,000 (which the Allowances & Exemptions Attachment) asks me to include in No 11. 2 of the Tax Computation, (per photo below),

 

making a total allowance of THB250,000 (plus the aforementioned THB100,000 for 50% of pension), making the total payable, after THB150,000 tax exempt, a big fat zero.

 

Does this sound about right? 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

Well, worst-case scenario, one could always spend 179 days in Thailand, up to 179 days in country X, and 7+ days in country Y...

Yes, and that is my plan, should it happen.

 

179 days in Thailand, 179 days in Vietnam, 7 days in Singapore for the Formula 1. 

 

Still, world wide income is an issue. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

 

well, it comes down to facts - if a foreigner stays in Thailand more than 179 days in a calendar year he is a Tax Resident.  If that tax resident has assessable income key word of course is assessable, then by law he is supposed to get a Thai tax id from the revenue dept.  Then, even if this tax resident doesn't have to pay any tax due to amount below the lowest amount then this person is required by local law to fil a tax form.  There are some questions about exemptions by royal decree or DTA's which might mean the tax resident might not really have assessable income but some of these things are questionable.  Just by studying the facts in the revenue dept web site (in English if needed) one can see some facts about an expatt and taxes.  Ignorance of the law is not a valid excuse from prosecution, even here in LOS.  But, I do wish good luck in the thai tax endevors.

 

It's funny how expats are meticulous when it comes to their reporting and extensions, yet it appears many are not taking this tax seriously. 

 

Most expats abide by Thai laws, yet it appears many are contemplating pushing the boundaries of Thai tax law at best, and breaking Thai tax law at worse. 

 

I see this Thai tax law as akin to a Thai visa / extension.  You just jump through some hoops and pay, otherwise, there are consequences. 

 

The "I'll do nothing" crowd is interesting, but each to their own. 

[anchadian]

Latest from Integrity Legal.  He's not a happy man:
 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, mahjongguy said:

The mention of US IRA accounts caught my eye.  I wonder if this issue is clear: if I take a distribution from my IRA every penny of it will get taxed by the IRS as ordinary income. That is to say "at full rate".  

 

If I don't transfer that money to Thailand is it assessable?  Cannot be, right?

You're talking Traditional not Roth.

Yes the IRS taxes as ordinary income the full withdrawal.

If none is remitted to Thailand, nothing about Thailand as Thailand currently is on a remittance system.

If transferred to Thailand my reading is the amount remitted to Thailand is fully taxed as accessable income. If you paid tax for that in the U.S. -- if U.S. tax is higher, no Thai tax while if the U.S. tax is lower, you get a credit on your Thai tax for the U.S. tax paid. Thus, at least you avoid DOUBLE taxation.

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

It's funny how expats are meticulous when it comes to their reporting and extensions, yet it appears many are not taking this tax seriously. 

 

Most expats abide by Thai laws, yet it appears many are contemplating pushing the boundaries of Thai tax law at best, and breaking Thai tax law at worse. 

 

I see this Thai tax law as akin to a Thai visa / extension.  You just jump through some hoops and pay, otherwise, there are consequences. 

 

The "I'll do nothing" crowd is interesting, but each to their own. 

I'm more of a middle ground person at the moment.

There is a lot we don't know yet about enforcement and also a number of important technical details on the actual rules of the system. 
But I will say this about enforcement.

Up till now, retired expats living only on remittances didn't think about Thai tax, getting a TIN at all. 

That was when the LOOPHOLE rule was money remitted from previous years to the current year was not accessable.

But think about this for a moment.

What percentage of retired expats do you think DID remit money earned in the current year?

My guess is 75 percent or more.

Weren't they in violation of Thai tax law?

I think, yes, absolutely, they were, but it was completely off the radar because of NO ENFORCEMENT.

It would have been totally insane to even try to go in to pay tax on such remittances before now.

So you see, this is much more of grey area than you're presenting it as. 

[Robaht]

One thing I don’t understand is how can any money be considered accessible if you don’t have a work permit and earn baht here in Thailand?  I have a TIN from previous years when I was working legally here, but even then money sent to my personal account wasn’t recorded as taxable income per accountant, only the salary I made and maybe the interest earned in the Thai bank account. Sending money to myself or using a credit card for a restaurant hardly feels like accessible income that needs to be reported, unless an official Thai tax statement is made it doesn’t seem anything has changed. Now it’s harder if it’s sent by a foreign government or company but personal funds? Not yet clear imo.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

It doesn't seem to give me the options I require to insert interest paid, tax withheld, TIN of paying bank.

 

I filed online.  When you click the dropdown menu for 40(4) income and select the 15% taxed items, either a popup opens or the section is extended, giving you blanks to enter those three items.  The section 11 calculator calculates how much you owe or have overpaid.  If overpaid, you can click a box to receive a refund.   If you can find the right item in the dropdown menu, it's very simple.  Super easy, barely an inconvenience!

 

If you file on paper, do it in their office (ten minutes to process) and they'll fill the appropriate blacks for you.  But look at section 3....first blank is "payer of income"....that's the TIN for your bank.  If I'm correct, your total interest income goes on line 1.  I'm not sure, but since you're opting not to pay tax, then the section 11 calculator should pick that up. 

 

Instructions say:

No. 3 item 1.
Enter income that you received in the form of interest which includes interest from deposits

 

Note: Do not enter the amount if you select to pay tax on this amount at the rate of 15%. If you select to include this amount, you must include the entire amount. Partial inclusion is not allowed.

 

This indicates to me that the 15% of the total is automatically deducted from tax owed.

1 hour ago, samtam said:

However, on the front of the form is this box, below, which allows for the claim, but with no box for details.

That box is autofilled when filing online.

 

1 hour ago, samtam said:

I think the THB190,000 deduction for over 65s is in the Tax Computation section, no 11 2. "Less allowances etc".

 

Instructions under personal details say

Your date of birth. (If you are 65 years of age or older, attach the “Income Exemption Entitlement Form” for income exemption up to 190,000 baht.

 

This is the form

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/22036765year.pdf

 

This if page 5 of the final printout when filing online, automatically generated by the system.  I don't know, as I'm still just a whippersnapper, but since your file contains your DOB, it will likely automatically award you (and spouse if filing jointly) the allowance.

1 hour ago, samtam said:

Plus my personal allowance of THB60,000 (which the Allowances & Exemptions Attachment) asks me to include in No 11. 2 of the Tax Computation

You do NOT fill out section 11.  The online system automatically does the calculations and populates the fields.

 

Good lucky!

 

 

NOTE:  NOT ADVICE.  OPINION ONLY.  DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY.

[KhunHeineken]

55 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm more of a middle ground person at the moment.

There is a lot we don't know yet about enforcement and also a number of important technical details on the actual rules of the system. 
But I will say this about enforcement.

Up till now, retired expats living only on remittances didn't think about Thai tax, getting a TIN at all. 

That was when the LOOPHOLE rule was money remitted from previous years to the current year was not accessable.

But think about this for a moment.

What percentage of retired expats do you think DID remit money earned in the current year?

My guess is 75 percent or more.

Weren't they in violation of Thai tax law?

I think, yes, absolutely, they were, but it was completely off the radar because of NO ENFORCEMENT.

It would have been totally insane to even try to go in to pay tax on such remittances before now.

So you see, this is much more of grey area than you're presenting it as. 

I agree with your assessment, but it's on record that the Minster has been tasked with expanding Thailand's tax base. 

 

That means, tax residents and income earners.  Add into that those remitting funds, both Thai and foreigners, and anyone else they can scoop up in the net, including companies. 

 

I would think 75% may not be far from the mark.  Many here are living pension day to pension day.  Thus, not pre 2024 "savings."

 

The numbers have been crunched by members here and most pensions from developed nations exceed the threshold here, so pensioners will have some tax to pay, if they move all of their pension to Thailand each month. 

 

When news of this tax policy broke, everyone viewed it differently, because we are all individuals.  It's just in my nature to look straight to collection and enforcement, but particularly enforcement. 

 

I tried to discuss it back then, but had many posts deleted as "scaremongering."  I was one of the first to put forward enforcement will be attached to visas / extensions.  I maintain that stance today.  If not in 2025, in the future at some point.  

 

You are correct, it's been there in the past, but the Thai government has not decided to tap this previously untapped revenue stream until now. 

 

As I have said, a tax policy without collection and enforcement is no tax policy at all.

 

Interesting times ahead. 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Until then, unless he comes out and makes bold statements like, for example, "foreigners remitting a pension DO NOT have to file" or similar very direct and concise statements, I will be filing and declaring.

 

Foreigners who remit exempt funds and understand their DTA, and any assessable remittances total under 60K do not need to file.

 

But let's say you declare ALL your foreign remittances, assessable or not.  If you are above TEDA and the 150K 0% band, you owe tax.

 

There is no provision in the Thai tax forms to deduct declared remittances as non-assessable, there is no provision to claim a tax credit paid to a foreign revenue service. 

 

Not on the 2024 Thai forms already released, nor on the 2023 English forms on the website, and no indication that there will be any changes to the 2024 English forms.  Otherwise, the Thai forms would have to be updated to match.

 

And that's not gonna happen.  As of Monday, 21% of this year's tax filing season has expired.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

The mention of US IRA accounts caught my eye.  I wonder if this issue is clear: if I take a distribution from my IRA every penny of it will get taxed by the IRS as ordinary income. That is to say "at full rate".  

 

If I don't transfer that money to Thailand is it assessable?  Cannot be, right?

 

Can you convert to Roth?  After 5 years, withdrawals are considered qualified, and there is no RMD.