Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[redwood1]

56 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I posted before, and another member also.

 

Immigration Officer:  "Do you have certificate from the TRD?"

 

Expat:  "No."

 

Immigration Officer:  "Can not do extension without certificate from TRD. You go see TRD first."   

 

Expat:  "Ok." 

 

Yes, rocket science, computer data bases, and some magic.  

 

Just another document needed at extension time.  No bank document, no extension.  No TRD certificate, no extension. Same Same.   

 

The order comes down from Bangkok, and that's it.  It would be so simple for them to do it that I will be very surprised if it does not go that way at some stage this year, or in the future. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

29 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

I guess my post left you speechless. 

[watchcat]

"Expats warned of new rules on overseas income"

 

What about Thais?

 

[ukrules]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I stayed for 2024, minimized my remittances, brought a wad of cash back from the Singapore F1, and also had a friend bring in a wad of cash for me from my home country as well. 

 

I'll instruct a tax agent / accountant to file and declare at the 11th hour in March and see what happens. 

 

Will you be declaring the wads of cash portion?

[scottiejohn]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I guess my post left you speechless. 

They always do as your repetitive scaremongering posts are no longer worth replying to!

[anchadian]

52 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

They always do as your repetitive scaremongering posts are no longer worth replying to!

Exactly and that's why we should hold until such time we get more clarity on the situation.

 

Still waiting.

[EVENKEEL]

It's amazing the TRD is relying on anonymous posters to tell the foreigners what the tax laws are. Is it a stretch to assume the Thai news stations would start reporting on this? 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

It's amazing the TRD is relying on anonymous posters to tell the foreigners what the tax laws are. Is it a stretch to assume the Thai news stations would start reporting on this? 

 

This Thai, Tax Consultant is not an anonymous poster

 

 

 

Particular attention should be said about what he says about US Social Security ( And by extension, other pensions that are only taxable in the other Country )

 

And this is my understanding of DTA's

 

1. They ensure that a person is not double taxed.

 

2. They do not exempt a person from Tax filing.

 

Up to the 3 minute mark covers debit / credit cards. 3 minutes onwards covers everything else.

[EVENKEEL]

20 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This Thai, Tax Consultant is not an anonymous poster

 

 

 

Particular attention should be said about what he says about US Social Security ( And by extension, other pensions that are only taxable in the other Country )

 

And this is my understanding of DTA's

 

1. They ensure that a person is not double taxed.

 

2. They do not exempt a person from Tax filing.

 

Up to the 3 minute mark covers debit / credit cards. 3 minutes onwards covers everything else.

He works for Siam Legal. This is the same outfit I've seen advertise visas and extensions for double the going rate at a Pattaya Agency. 

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

He works for Siam Legal. This is the same outfit I've seen advertise visas and extensions for double the going rate at a Pattaya Agency. 

 

And ?
 

He is Thai, he is a Tax Consultant that works for Siam Legal.

 

People only need to ask themselves one simple question. What is the purpose of a DTA ?
 

And the answer is to prevent Double taxation.

 

It is not, and never has been, a document that exempts anyone from filing a tax return, in another Country where they are a tax resident.

 

That it has been ignored, un-enforced, or nobody gave a **** in the past, does not change the purpose of a DTA.

[bugger bognor]

Those who are <deleted>ting themselves and actually believe that all expats have to file a tax return ( Delusional )  why don't you go to Cambodia open a account transfer your money there convert it to Thai baht and carry it into Thailand! There is no limit from an adjoining country currency wise, perfectly legal , those of you say that can't be done think on yes it can even on a tourist visa 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

Those who are <deleted>ting themselves and actually believe that all expats have to file a tax return ( Delusional ) 

 

I don't think anyone is ******* themselves, most will pay nothing or very little in the way of tax.

 

No-one is claiming that all expats have to file a tax return

 

4 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

why don't you go to Cambodia open a account transfer your money there convert it to Thai baht and carry it into Thailand!

 

For a potential tax bill that might top out at 10,000 Baht, sure, makes absolute sense, to someone, somewhere.

[grain]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I posted before, and another member also.

 

Immigration Officer:  "Do you have certificate from the TRD?"

 

Expat:  "No."

 

Immigration Officer:  "Can not do extension without certificate from TRD. You go see TRD first."   

 

Expat:  "Ok." 

 

Yes, rocket science, computer data bases, and some magic.  

 

Just another document needed at extension time.  No bank document, no extension.  No TRD certificate, no extension. Same Same.   

 

The order comes down from Bangkok, and that's it.  It would be so simple for them to do it that I will be very surprised if it does not go that way at some stage this year, or in the future. 

I agree entirely, this will come soon. Just one more requirement on the list. 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

And this is my understanding of DTA's

 

1. They ensure that a person is not double taxed.

 

2. They do not exempt a person from Tax filing.

 

 

With regards to point #2, note that Royal Decree 18, that notes Thailand compliance with Double Tax Agreements, states (translation):

 

Quote

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries.

 

So Royal Decree 18 DOES exempt taxes per the DTAs (where applicable per individual DTAs).

 

Does that help clarify this a bit in your view?

[anchadian]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This Thai, Tax Consultant is not an anonymous poster

 

 

 

Particular attention should be said about what he says about US Social Security ( And by extension, other pensions that are only taxable in the other Country )

 

And this is my understanding of DTA's

 

1. They ensure that a person is not double taxed.

 

2. They do not exempt a person from Tax filing.

 

Up to the 3 minute mark covers debit / credit cards. 3 minutes onwards covers everything else.

He maybe be a tax consultant like many of the others but we have had no communication from the official channels, namely the govt or RD office.

 

Can you explain that?  No, thought not.

[TheAppletons]

The number of people who think a YouTube video is a credible source of information would be hysterically funny if it weren't so pathetic.

 

Imagine, when you were still working, if you went to your District Manager, CEO, Commanding Officer....whomever....and made a recommendation to him.  When asked to justify your recommendation, you tell him you saw a video about it on YouTube, lol.

 

You'd be laughed out of the office and, quite possibly, out of your job.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

18 minutes ago, anchadian said:

He maybe be a tax consultant like many of the others but we have had no communication from the official channels, namely the govt or RD office.

 

Can you explain that?  No, thought not.

 

I believe that the Revenue Department has.

 

It goes along the lines of, as a tax resident, if you earn income in 2024 and remit it to Thailand in 2024 it is assessable income for tax purposes.

 

The Thai Guy, a tax Consultant, reiterates that.

 

Perhaps you could explain where a DTA, exempts anyone, from filing a tax return, in a Country where they are resident for tax purposes ?
 

Or perhaps you would like to revert back to the mantra of, a DTA says my income is non assessable in Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

Only it doesn't. As the Thai guy, who is a Tax Consultant, reiterates.

[EVENKEEL]

I'm not sure which came first - Mike Lister or the Utube videos. I'm suspicious by nature. Then Changmai came and went, and now we have you. Very Interesting.

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm not sure which came first - Mike Lister or the Utube videos. I'm suspicious by nature. Then Changmai came and went, and now we have you. Very Interesting.

Trolling accounts have an expiry date.

[The Cyclist]

31 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So Royal Decree 18 DOES exempt taxes per the DTAs (where applicable per individual DTAs).

 

32 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Section 3 Taxes and duties under the Revenue Code shall be exempted for persons in accordance with the agreements on avoidance of double taxation which the government of Thailand has entered into or shall enter into with the governments of foreign countries.

 

Some streams of Income are exempt taxation in Thailand, or to use the wording on a DTA, can only be taxed exclusively by country X, Y or Z.

 

( Which pretty much makes them exempt )

 

Some income streams are taxable in Thailand, but will be subject to a Tax Credit to ensure that they are not taxed twice.

 

Royal Decree 18:does not say exempt from filing a tax return in compliance with Tax Laws if you are a tax resident of Thailand.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm not sure which came first - Mike Lister or the Utube videos. I'm suspicious by nature. Then Changmai came and went, and now we have you. Very Interesting.

 

Go back to the original tax thread, and you will see me giving Listerine pelters.

 

I was the guy asking him if he was the window cleaner at the big 4.

 

I have had more than my fair share of both agreements and disagreements with changmai

[oldcpu]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

Perhaps you could explain where a DTA, exempts anyone, from filing a tax return, in a Country where they are resident for tax purposes ?
 

Or perhaps you would like to revert back to the mantra of, a DTA says my income is non assessable in Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

 

I pointed out in a previous thread that Royal Decree 18 exempts taxation per the revenue code per selected DTAs.  I did not note, but if you read the Royal Decree, it also makes it clear it is up to the Minister of Finance to be in charge and execute that Royal Decree.

 

That Royal Decree came out in 1962.  I confess I have not looked at Thailand tax forms (English & Thai language) going back to 1962, but I have looked back to 2017 (both languages).  The best that I could observe, neither have a location on those tax forms to list income under DTAs as tax exempt.  Yet the Royal Decree clearly states some foreign income can be tax exempt if covered under a DTA.

 

It has ALWAYS been the case that foreign income remitted to Thailand in the year in which it is earned is taxable.  If a tax return was required (despite such income being exempt (per Royal Decree/DTA)) then one would expect a location in the Thai tax form with a blank field for such income to be listed as an exemption.  But there is NONE going back to 2017, and probably going back to 1962.

 

Argueably, Thailand has over 1/2 century to put in the Thailand tax forms an exemption field for DTAs that are tax exempt. Thailand has not. Why? 

 

Why not?

 

My interpretation (and I believe the interpretation of the Minister of Finance) is that any income that a DTA/Royal-Decree-18 notes is exempt Thai taxation (per Thai revenue code) is in fact exempt for taxation calculation. 

 

And hence since it can not be taxed (per Royal Decree-18/DTAs) it does not belong in a tax form, which means it does not form part of evaluating the level of assesable income.  So if one has inadequate other income, it could equate to there being no requirement to file a Thai tax return.

 

Once again - this is not new.  Royal Decree (and Double Tax agreements) have been in place for decades.  And for decades, there is no place in the Thai tax forms under exemptions to place income from DTAs.

 

 

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Royal Decree 18:does not say exempt from filing a tax return in compliance with Tax Laws if you are a tax resident of Thailand.

 

I replied on this in another thread.

 

What in essence it does is lower the assessble tax threshold of a person (because such is likely exempt for purposes of tax calculation), and accordingly could contribute to the decision if a tax return is required or not required.

.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

What in essence it does is lower the assessble tax threshold of a person

 

The assessable thresholds couldn't get any lower

 

60 / 120 / 220 k baht a year, as laid down in the revenue code.

 

The thresholds where people start paying tax, are different for each individual.

[oldcpu]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

The assessable thresholds couldn't get any lower

 

60 / 120 / 220 k baht a year, as laid down in the revenue code.

 

The thresholds where people start paying tax, are different for each individual.

 

i think we are in agreement there. 

 

Where we don't yet see eye to eye is whether for cases that DTAs note foreign income is not taxable in Thailand (and hence Royal Decree-18 notes such is exempt) whether such tax exempt foreign income should be included in the calculation whether a tax return need to be submitted.

 

My current view is such tax exempt foreign income should not be included in the tax calculation,

 

...   and I believe your view is such tax exempt foreign income should be included in the tax return calculation (and then later, somehow, in a non-existent field in a Thailand tax return (which has been the case of no such exemption field for over > 1/2 century of Thailand tax returns) be deducted from tax payable on said tax return.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My current view is such tax exempt foreign income should not be included in the tax calculation,

 

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

Any foreign income after 01 Jan 2024 and remitted in 2024, is automatically assessable income, regardless of source.

 

Tax residents require to file a tax return if that income exceeds the 60 / 120 / 220k assessable limit.

 

Which then brings in DTA's

 

It will then be exempt Thai taxation, due to Country X, Y or Z having exclusive taxation rights.

 

Or Tax Credits will be applied, to ensure that double taxation does not take place.

 

Certain Thai visa's quite possibly also exempt people from paying tax on overseas income

[TheAppletons]

19 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My current view is such tax exempt foreign income should not be included in the tax calculation,

 

 

  It's even simpler than that. 

 

  If you have no assessable income (whether by DTA or LTR, whatever), you don't need to file a tax return because the TRD mandated threshold for filing is assessable income of 60K/120K/220K (reference previously quoted in this very thread.)

 

  

 

  

 

   

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

Any foreign income after 01 Jan 2024 and remitted in 2024, is automatically assessable income, regardless of source.

 

Tax residents require to file a tax return if that income exceeds the 60 / 120 / 220k assessable limit.

 

Which then brings in DTA's

 

It will then be exempt Thai taxation, due to Country X, Y or Z having exclusive taxation rights.

 

Or Tax Credits will be applied, to ensure that double taxation does not take place.

 

Certain Thai visa's quite possibly also exempt people from paying tax on overseas income

 

I don't fully understand your view.

 

So are you claiming that income exempt Thai tax calculation (per a DTA/Royal Decree) should not be included in a Thai tax return form, but it should be used to decide of a Tax form return should be submitted?  or are you saying its should be listed in a Thai tax return form, even thou the remitted tax exempt income is not mentioned anywhere in the tax form as an exemption?  There is NO field in any tax form to deduct such DTA exempt income.

 

For if said income is listed in a tax return form, again, there is no where (going back to 2017, and likely no where going back to 1969), ..   is there any place under exempt income to list such DTA exempt income in a Thai tax return form.

 

Thailand has had > 1/2 century to put such exemption field in a Thai tax return form and they have not put such in.

[Yumthai]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

Inheritances and gifts are tax exempted and not to be filed if under threshold.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To the best of my understanding. The only exempt foreign income, is income prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

 

 

You need to read Royal Decree 18.