Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'm making things up.

 

I am posting things that are black and white, not my words, so I cannot be making anything up.

 

What does the 1st part of this latest video say ?
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGvznkNy398

 

Again - once again - in that VERY VIDEO, the RD official stated when defining assesable income, that there is exempt income that is not part of assessable income.

 

How often do I need to retype that?

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Am I hearing things ?
 

Am I making it up ?
 

 

You are missing what I typed.  I will type it again:

 

In that VERY VIDEO, the RD official stated when defining assesable income, that there is exempt income that is not part of assessable income.

 

 

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Do you file a PND 95 for your fancy visa ?

 

Why don't you tell BoI (and maybe RD) that you believe the LTR visa should be called a fancy visa? 

 

 

Ok  - you were were warned.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Again - once again - in that VERY VIDEO, the RD official stated when defining assesable income, that there is exempt income that is not part of assessable income.

 

And as I asked you yesterday, what exempt income was he talking about.

 

My money is on the exempt income listed here

 

Quote

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Or do you have something concrete that says he was talking about something else ?

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Why don't you tell BoI (and maybe RD) that you believe the LTR visa should be called a fancy visa? 

 

I don't care what is called, I asked a question about your LTR.

 

Do you file a PND 95 and why would you think others should not also file.

 

Your attitude just does not make sense, unless of course........

 

 

[SHA 2 BKK]

39 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Yes you are right.

 

I'm bad.

All good digger 

[SHA 2 BKK]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I don't care what is called, I asked a question about your LTR.

 

Do you file a PND 95 and why would you think others should not also file.

 

Your attitude just does not make sense, unless of course........

 

 

PND 95 is for the 17% flat tax rate for Highly-Skilled Professionals LTR Visa holders.   
 

Most people who have the “fancy”  as you call it LTR Visa are not in this category and as such PND 95 is not intended for them. 
 

From memory oldcpu is a LTR Pensioner Visa - so like me this form does not apply.  

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Most people who have the “fancy”  as you call it LTR Visa are not in this category and as such PND 95 is not intended for them. 
 

From memory oldcpu is a LTR Pensioner Visa - so like me this form does not apply.  

 

Which is why I am thinking exempt from taxation.

 

Not exempt from tax filing.

 

Somebody is pretty vexxed that they might have to file a tax return.

 

Whereas I couldn't care less, paperwork complete, ready to go when either an updated form arrives or taking myself to the Revenue Office.

[oldcpu]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

And as I asked you yesterday, what exempt income was he talking about.

 

and I replied it likely included exempt income from RDs/DTAs/Ministerial instructions.

 

 

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

My money is on the exempt income listed here

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Or do you have something concrete that says he was talking about something else ?

 

Yes - I pointed out Thai RD practice from 2017 to 2023 (English/Thai language) and 2024 (Thai language).

 

 

[oldcpu]

25 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I don't care what is called, I asked a question about your LTR.

 

Do you file a PND 95 and why would you think others should not also file.

 

Your attitude just does not make sense, unless of course........

 

 

 

 See what SHA 2 BKK posted.

 

Did you even look at PID.95 before asking?  I think not.

[oldcpu]

19 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

 

From memory oldcpu is a LTR Pensioner Visa - so like me this form does not apply.  

 

 

 

yes ,that is correct.

 

But what is significant is that PID.95 is for the LTR-Highly Skilled professional in the 2023 tax returns (Thai and English language).  I emphasize year 2023.

 

Yet in PID.90 and PID.91 for tax year 2023 there is no mention in the tax exemption sections to list as tax exempt the LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, nor LTR-WFTP visas.  Nor in Thai language 2024 Thai tax return.   What was the MOST popular LTR visa?  The LTR-WP.  Yet nothing ... nothing ... nothing in 2023 (Thai/English language) nor 2024 (Thai language) tax return forms to include such in the exemption lists, ... yet here was LTR-HSP in the the 2023/2024 tax return forms.

 

Clearly that is because such foreign remitted income for those LTR visa holders (LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR-WFTP) is not to be considered assessable income.

 

It was PID.95 that resulted in my finally shifting my view in terms of the assessability of tax exempt foreign income.

[BE88]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I'm giving Thailand a chance this year.  I could have vacated for 6 months in 2024, but decided to be in the game for the first year.  

 

Depending on how this unfolds, it will determine whether I remain in Thailand for the second half of 2025. 

 

Your decision ensures you have nothing to worry about, and can sit back and laugh at it all.  Good for you.  

 

I had no intention before the government's stupid decision and I had somewhat lost my taste for adventure.

 

 Now I enjoy thinking about the two countries  I will visit in the next 6 months.

 

[SHA 2 BKK]

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Which is why I am thinking exempt from taxation.

 

Not exempt from tax filing.

 

Somebody is pretty vexxed that they might have to file a tax return.

 

Whereas I couldn't care less, paperwork complete, ready to go when either an updated form arrives or taking myself to the Revenue Office.

 

I'm not "vexed" at all.  There is simply no place on the current forms for me to file.  All remittances were from pre 2024 savings, my Pension is specifically excluded under my country's DTA and I have an LTR Visa.    

 

Even you have admitted that you are waiting for an updated form and will wait until the last day of February.  If no updates arrive you will again go to your local RD and try to file using the existing forms.  I do hope you get a different officer this time for your own sake.

 

 

[oldcpu]

40 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Somebody is pretty vexxed that they might have to file a tax return.

 

I am interested to learn the truth.  Not fire insults at people who don't agree with my view.

 

For my year 2028 re-proof of income, starting this year, I have shifted from proving the $40k/year US$ equivalent to the $80K US equivalent, in no small part due to my now being required (by Canadian law) to with draw a minimum amount of funds per year from a Canadian RRIF (retirement income fund - only taxable in Canada).

 

As for my incomes ... my large combined Canadian pension incomes can only be taxed in Canada.

 

My large European (government organization 'civil service' type pension from working in Germany) being government  civil service is not taxable in Thailand.    That just leaves a small German pension (which IS assessable and hence taxable in Thailand) that falls under the submission threshold of money needed to file a Thai tax return. ie its too small.

 

But I do also have an LTR visa. I did NOT get the LTR visa for taxation reasons - rather I obtained it for the convenience of not going to immigration every year.

 

Initially (before seeing PID.95) I thought there might be a chance I would have to file a Thai tax return, but the tax return forms perplexed me due to no place to list the noted exempt income. So in 2024 I remitted no income into Thailand (and frankly I obtain better interest abroad). 

 

Then when PID.95 came out, I concluded the Thai RD knew what they were doing and that any income I brought into Thailand (while under the LTR visa) was not to be considered assessable, although as already noted - it was already not to be considered assessable (except for small German pension).

 

40 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Whereas I couldn't care less, paperwork complete, ready to go when either an updated form arrives or taking myself to the Revenue Office.

 

If your paper works is complete ,why not show us where in the tax form you plan to list your exempted income as being exempt?  Or maybe your paper work is not YET complete.

 

Now - as to WHY i am interested - this topic comes up a LOT with my expat friends who do not have the LTR visa, so like them I am very curious about this.  Its a common topic and I want to be accurate in my knowledge here.

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

I'm not "vexed" at all.

 

I know, it was not aimed at you.

[anchadian]

 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Why do you keep having to repeat this ?

 

Because you..........have...........NOT..............filed.

 

You are giving advice based on some rando underling giving you false information.

 

You're claiming refunds your non-assessable tax credits can't cash.

 

So, before you continue to give incorrect advice, why don't you head down to TRD and put your non-assessable remittances where your mouth is!

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, BE88 said:

 

I had no intention before the government's stupid decision and I had somewhat lost my taste for adventure.

 

 Now I enjoy thinking about the two countries  I will visit in the next 6 months.

 

What country did you decide on for the other 6 months, or will you go back to your home country? 

 

For me, it's Vietnam. 

[BE88]

35 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What country did you decide on for the other 6 months, or will you go back to your home country? 

 

For me, it's Vietnam. 

First Cambodia maybe also Vietnam next my country

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Canada asked for such from me in a couple of trading accounts.

 

And years back when opening accounts in Canada I had to provide such (and sign some forms).

I occasionally have to re-confirm my tax residency status for a particular bank in Australia.  I do it inside their internet banking. 

 

Kasikorn was the first time for something with a little more "substance." 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

They not only want that, they want you to sign a very specific form with that information. 

 

Don't forget - banks have a massive bureaucracy behind them , and bureaucracies love paperwork.

 

I have more than one bank account in Thailand, as I suspect most expats do as well.  Do you think the other banks will be following Kasikorn requiring their foreign account holders to submit similar forms? 

[KhunHeineken]

15 minutes ago, BE88 said:

First Cambodia maybe also Vietnam next my country

Plenty of options.

 

I considered Bali as well. 

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Do you think the other banks will be following Kasikorn requiring their foreign account holders to submit similar forms? 

 

Yes, if not done already. 

 

But (apologies), ... TIT so who knows. 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Jeeze, man, this ain't rockette seance!

I'd expect this from CRS guy, not you.

 

Thailand is implementing CRS this year.  The banks have to get THEIR records in order.  That means all non-Thai customers will have to fill out a form.  New customers first, then existing customers.

 

It's only Kasikorn for now.  The other banks will get around to it, eventually, when they get around to it.  After all, Thai banks are not known for their efficiency.

 

Other countries are on different timelines.

 

Well, it appears Kasikorn are super efficient then, because I have got this from any other bank, in any other country.  

[oldcpu]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

Well, it appears Kasikorn are super efficient then, because I have got this from any other bank, in any other country.  

I had to fill something similar at Bangkok bank some time back. Also at Krungsri Bank. And recently when opening new Canadian trading accounts  I had to do such. Forms were a bit different but same sort of information  required. 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, JimGant said:

Hire another 50,000 agents, versed in 61 different DTAs, and paid several millions of baht per year - to collect, if lucky, maybe 1% of the cost from interviews with 300,000 farangs? Don't think so.

Or, they don't hire anymore staff, and let the queue stretch out through the front door, down the street, and around the corner. Sound familiar?  Nice earner for "agents" and backhanders for TRD staff.  Sound familiar? 

 

Also, there's 3 months for all farang in Thailand to file, so the work load is spread over time? 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You don't understand.  It's a CRS paperwork drill.  You need to fill out a specific form so that the bank can check their tickbox.

 

I show my passport when I open an account.

Still have to fill out the IRS form though.

 

All banks should be having NEW account openers filling out the forms upon opening.  Banks will be having OLD account holders filling out the forms throughout the year. 

 

They don't all have to have the OLD accounts done now, but before some cutoff date.  Some banks will get around to it sooner than others.  I anticipate BKK Bank sending me CRS forms sometime this year, even though they have my passport AND my FATCA paperwork.

Got it. 

 

I'll wait on the "Bangkok Bank emailed me" thread. 

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Got it. 

 

I'll wait on the "Bangkok Bank emailed me" thread. 

In my case no email. No phone call.

 

My recollection was that I was at the Bangkok bank branch getting a bankbook updated, and I was called over and asked to complete and sign the form. Fortunately I was in no hurry as I did ask them a few questions,  and I had to wait for someone more senior to answer my questions. 

 

Krungsri was similar,  .. they had me fill such in when I was at the bank for other reasons.

[KhunHeineken]

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

There effectively haven't been any changes, unless you remit current year assessable income.

You do know that it's highly likely at some stage that current expats, and new expats retiring to Thailand, will eventually be remitting current year income in the future. 

 

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

We still decide which remittances are assessable.

We still decide if we are required to file a return.

We still file only if we wanna.

Something I am sure the Thai government will be seeking to change for foreigners. 

 

Can't have farang having a choice, can we? 

 

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

An American remitting 100K baht of exempt social security benefits every month is still where he was last year.

 

I am still of the opinion the Thai government will want to confirm they can't tax that 100k baht each month, because currently, they don't know if that 100k baht every month is from social security, or from rental property.  (speaking in general - not focusing on Americans who have a "kinder" DTA) 

 

 

[anchadian]

Further video from Siam Legal:

 

If visiting their office, remember to take cash or a debit/credit card.
 

 

[KhunHeineken]

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I said it's up to us to be good second-class non-citizens and file, that it's an honour system, and we self-determine assessability.  TRD isn't likely to be receiving full bank account reports on all foreigners. 

Right, so after receiving said "full bank account reports on all foreigners" how does the TRD know whether an individual's remittance is from assessable or non assessable income, UNLESS the individual is forced into a TRD Office to prove the source? 

 

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'd expect they might get some flagged accounts due to suspicious activity or unnatural cash flows.  In that case, ya might be called in for an interview, and if you can show your deposits are legitimately non-assessable, off you go.  If not, you may be assessed tax.

Why bother "calling" when you can wait for them to come to you because they need a certificate from the TRD at extension time? 

 

Why chase down foreigners when you can make them come to you? 

 

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

If you don't need to file, don't, but keep good records.

If you are required and don't, you'll probably not be bothered, unless your account activity is particularly irregular.

I have a feeling we'll all be "bothered" in some way, shape, or form, by this tax policy.

 

Time will tell.

 

20 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

They have audits, and following a failed audit they have fines and fees, and persecution for non-payment.  Might even involve jail time.

Yes, but how to get them into the TRD Office for the first time?

 

What process do you think they will implement?

 

I can't see them scanning TM30's, bank records, telco companies etc.  For me, make it a requirement to have a certificate from the TRD at extension time. 

 

Cheapest, easiest, most effective, and no chasing. 

 

Time will tell.

[KhunHeineken]

20 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I think think Banks are required to report certain deposit amounts to the Thai Revenue Department.  The RD can then decide if they wish to do something.

Would that "certain deposit amounts" have to be all amounts over the tax free threshold, which is pretty much every foreigner?  

 

21 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Its best everyone follow Thai tax law.

How can they when they know they have to file, but are being sent away by TRD staff who say "no need for you to file" and they have no documentary proof of their attempt to file? 

 

Do you think down the track it may come back to them? 

 

21 hours ago, oldcpu said:

If the RD is suspicious (based on Thai bank information they are provided), they can call an audit, ask about tax returns if any or if none, ..   and compare the information they have received from Thai banks, with the records the foreigner can produce.

 

As I said to anther member, why "call an audit" when they can force all foreigners into a TRD Office, ensuring they don't miss out on 1 baht?  

 

21 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Its not rocket science, and it may not be perfect, but having an audit could be a major PIA.

I'm sure it would be. 

 

21 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Thats a joke, right?

Yes, I was being sarcastic.