Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Yumthai]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I am not going to bypass anything.  I will be filling, but through an agent. 

 

The agent will "take care" of everything.  He can even negotiate the amount of tax to be paid.  Yes, crazy, but hey, TiT.

 

I could sit back and do nothing, but I have a feeling something could come back and bite me in the *ss in the future, so I will pay some tax, but really all I am paying for is that piece of paper from the TRD that means I am good for the next 12 months.  In a way, just like an extension.   

 

Then, I will sit back and watch the chaos and carnage.  

 

Basically, I view that piece of paper from the TRD as an insurance policy. 

 

You're playing small. You're already rogue with Immigration. Voluntarily willing to get, shadily, in the tax system whereas nobody came knocking your door is the mistake that may eventually come back and bite you in the *ss.

 

If you really need that tax certificate "insurance" just wait getting the official information a tax paper is required and enforced by Immigration or any other institution, then you can use your agent.

 

You do you.

[Felton Jarvis]

1 hour ago, FriscoKid said:

What happened to Bong-Hits-Ben? He went from being the happy little Thai citizen, whilst being so positive about everything in the hub of hubs, to being the fed up, frustrated farang that's had enough and can't take it anymore.
 

It's like he paid for long-time, but when she got undressed, he immediately began wishing he only went for short time. Check Binnnnnnn!!!

Ben may be a "Thai Citizen" but I would bet that he couldn't get into the Grand Palace for free like most Thais.  One wonders what sort of person would voluntarily give up their American citizenship.  I still think he has the right idea about taxation of overseas income of farangs.

[Felton Jarvis]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:24 PM, MikeandDow said:

They will have to be knocking on my door before i fill out any of there BS

I was led to believe that there might be jail time if one did not comply. Am I wrong?

[TheAppletons]

5 minutes ago, Felton Jarvis said:

I was led to believe that there might be jail time if one did not comply. Am I wrong?

 

  Not everyone must file to be in compliance with Thai tax law.  Jail time, lol.

[daejung]

A good reason not to live permanently in Thailand 

[Porthos]

2 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

I was led to believe that there might be jail time if one did not comply. Am I wrong?

 

Bangkokbiznews published an article about fines and penalties. It starts with a fine of 2,000 Baht and ends with 7 years in prison.

Penalties for Failure to File Form PND 90/91 and Pay Tax

 

Failure to submit the form or pay tax beyond the deadline is subject to a fine of not more than 2,000 baht in case of failure to submit the form
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

The investigating officer issued a summons and found that the form was not filed or the form was submitted but the tax was too low
The penalty is a fine of not more than 2,000 baht in case of failure to submit the form
1 or 2 times the penalty of the tax payable
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

The investigating officer issued a summons and found that the intention was not to file the form to avoid paying taxes
The penalty is imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than 200,000 baht, or both
Penalty fee 2 times the tax payable
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

Deliberately making false statements/providing false evidence to avoid paying taxes
The prison sentence ranges from 3 months to 7 years
Fines ranging from 2,000 baht to 200,000 baht

https://www.bangkokbiznews.com/news/news-update/1165969

[Presnock]

On 2/8/2025 at 6:39 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Which would be most expats. 

 

Glad we cleared that up. 

jUst had an American friend and has a state pension, not civil service so I advised him if he was concened about it to go to the RD local office in CM which he did and they asked him about his pension and if he paid taxes on it already which as an Amrerican we must pay our taxes always and the rd rep there told him that he therefore doesn't have assessable income so he doesn't need an ID number nor does he have to file taxes.  Just saying as we keep hearing this same story from different rd local reps.  

[Unamerican]

18 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

remitted assessable income, over the threshold

What “threshold” is this, please?? 

[Freddy42OZ]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:11 PM, snoop1130 said:

In a surprise revelation, it was disclosed that foreign credit card usage in Thailand, if converted to Thai baht, is now considered taxable income

 

How the hell are you supposed to track what you spent in Thailand using your foreign debit/credit cards? 

I'm not going to keep all the receipts and then count up what I've spent in THB to then be taxed on that total.   

[Unamerican]

@Jingthing How much, approx, income do you typically remit? 

[BertieSmor]

On 1/15/2025 at 8:04 PM, Briggsy said:

What would be the incentive to file?

 

Let me give you some completely hypothetical examples.

 

1. They refuse to extend your permission to stay unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

2. They issue an estimated assessment for a year you did not file.

3. They issue a fine for a year you did not file.

4. The Thai bank freezes your bank account unless you provide proof you have filed a tax return.

 

Currently these all seem very unlikely.

 

So I am back to my original question, what would be the incentive to file a Thai tax return.

Yes, they can do all of these things every day and twice on Sundays so they’ve got you over a barrel that way. I think it’s a certainty that tax is coming to Thailand whatever people say or do and it’s probably cause of the cryptos. That’s coming in big this year and they see that, by a widening of the tax base to include more rich foreigners, (many of whom will become crypto millionaires or the latter will come to Thailand with their newfound wealth), they grab a huge amount of cash swirling around. Pretty soon, we’re going to see very happy, smiling immigration officers ant the airport asking about one’s tax status? 🙂

[digger70]

Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income. 

 

How Stupid are they  

They Don't even know what they are Doing :   How do you figure

 

Patcha explained that not all expats are required to file Thai tax returns.

All foreign income must be declared but this doesn’t always mean a tax liability.”

[Unamerican]

23 hours ago, anchadian said:

remittances are well before the D/A although

what does this mean?? 

[Unamerican]

21 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

If you are under the tax free threshold, then fine. 

 

I don't know many expats that could live here comfortably on that amount, but good luck to you.  

what do you mean here?  What is this “threshold”?  For whom is it? 

[Unamerican]

19 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

We're still self-determining accessibility

Whtbhas this got to with “accessibility”, please? accessing what, and by whom? 

[JimGant]

18 minutes ago, Presnock said:

jUst had an American friend and has a state pension, not civil service so I advised him if he was concened about it to go to the RD local office in CM

DTA gives exclusive taxation rights to US on "pensions paid for service to the government." This is NOT exclusive to the Federal govt, but also includes state and local govts. Which would include pensions paid to policemen and firemen.

 

21 minutes ago, Presnock said:

they asked him about his pension and if he paid taxes on it already which as an Amrerican we must pay our taxes always and the rd rep there told him that he therefore doesn't have assessable income so he doesn't need an ID number nor does he have to file taxes. 

Is the key here: Paid taxes on it already? Thus, would private pensions, which ARE assessable by Thailand per DTA, also be treated as non assessable, like govt pensions, 'cause you've paid US tax on them?

 

Back in Sept 2023, when Por 161 came out, remember this phrase from somewhere in the Thai govt:

Quote

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

Would be nice if they reiterated this formally. For Yanks, because we do have to pay tax on all our worldwide income, this would certainly put to rest the requirement to pay taxes on foreign income to Thailand. But for those who, because they're no longer residents, don't have to pay home country taxes on their income -- well, Thailand has their hand out to you. Welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. So sad.

[Unamerican]

@KhunHeineken

So how much does he think you should pay?   
It seems likely that:

Most normal people will not have to,pay snuthing. 

[Presnock]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

DTA gives exclusive taxation rights to US on "pensions paid for service to the government." This is NOT exclusive to the Federal govt, but also includes state and local govts. Which would include pensions paid to policemen and firemen.

 

Is the key here: Paid taxes on it already? Thus, would private pensions, which ARE assessable by Thailand per DTA, also be treated as non assessable, like govt pensions, 'cause you've paid US tax on them?

 

Back in Sept 2023, when Por 161 came out, remember this phrase from somewhere in the Thai govt:

Would be nice if they reiterated this formally. For Yanks, because we do have to pay tax on all our worldwide income, this would certainly put to rest the requirement to pay taxes on foreign income to Thailand. But for those who, because they're no longer residents, don't have to pay home country taxes on their income -- well, Thailand has their hand out to you. Welcome to the world of having to pay someone taxes. So sad.

Yes, I have been hearing  this same story from many different forum users.  I have a civil service pension and an LTR so I am exempt from getting a TN and from filing and will not do anything different unles the Thai govt Finance or Revenue Dept puts out this change officially as it would be a change and should be published in the Gazette.  Then I would follow whatever but I also believe that the reason we are seeing such little information from the govt offices involved is because they are having problems getting a complete agreement from too many of the power people here.  Initially I kept reading about how they wanted expats and foreigners to be added to the tax base and pay taxes but then those comments disappeared and at least one of the local tax attorneys indicated that there was some dissension among the people trying to get a new tax law system i.e. negative income tax,worldwide income tax, etc...MY opinion only so far but hope we see something soon.

[Thingamabob]

Carden, a director of American International Tax Advisers, grubbing about for business. Why are local expat groups hosting this kind of meeting ? Find something else to do.

[TheAppletons]

54 minutes ago, Unamerican said:

What “threshold” is this, please?? 

 

43 minutes ago, Unamerican said:

what does this mean?? 

 

32 minutes ago, Unamerican said:

Whtbhas this got to with “accessibility”, please? accessing what, and by whom? 

 

The answers to your questions are here:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-introduction-to-personal-income-tax-in-thailand/

 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Porthos said:

 

Bangkokbiznews published an article about fines and penalties. It starts with a fine of 2,000 Baht and ends with 7 years in prison.

Penalties for Failure to File Form PND 90/91 and Pay Tax

 

Failure to submit the form or pay tax beyond the deadline is subject to a fine of not more than 2,000 baht in case of failure to submit the form
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

The investigating officer issued a summons and found that the form was not filed or the form was submitted but the tax was too low
The penalty is a fine of not more than 2,000 baht in case of failure to submit the form
1 or 2 times the penalty of the tax payable
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

The investigating officer issued a summons and found that the intention was not to file the form to avoid paying taxes
The penalty is imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than 200,000 baht, or both
Penalty fee 2 times the tax payable
An additional 1.5% per month of tax payable

 

Deliberately making false statements/providing false evidence to avoid paying taxes
The prison sentence ranges from 3 months to 7 years
Fines ranging from 2,000 baht to 200,000 baht

https://www.bangkokbiznews.com/news/news-update/1165969

 

  Oh look, a guy with six whole posts using his "burner account" to troll the forum.

[Presnock]

58 minutes ago, Freddy42OZ said:

 

How the hell are you supposed to track what you spent in Thailand using your foreign debit/credit cards? 

I'm not going to keep all the receipts and then count up what I've spent in THB to then be taxed on that total.   

well as a US cit, the thai rd will not get any info on my credit card usage and I certainly will not provide any either.

[NoDisplayName]

58 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Quote

Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand.

Would be nice if they reiterated this formally.

 

What some official says at an interview doesn't necessarily reflect the law.  He is likely oversimplifying the answer, as giving a full, detailed account would require hours to cover everyone in every situation.  You also have to consider mistranslations, and the often abbreviated translated answers which are shortened interpretations by the translator of what the speaker meant.

 

DTA doesn't mean you can't be taxed by both countries, but we like to think of it in those terms for simplicity.  In the case of sociable security, that is declared exempt, as are some pensions.   Other pensions may be taxed by both, with one country eating a tax credit.  DTA means you won't be taxed at the standard rate by both countries on the same income.

 

Your private pension may be taxable in your home country, then taxable again in Thailand.  You may use a foreign tax credit to offset the Thai tax, resulting in not paying tax in Thailand (or the reverse if Thailand has taxing authority).  That is not the same as exempt, but has the same result.  

 

I believe that is what your quote above is intended to convey - you won't be taxed twice at the full rate on the same income.

 

That's MY understanding of DTA's.  If I'm worng, please correct.

[Porthos]

48 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Oh look, a guy with six whole posts using his "burner account" to troll the forum.

 

An article from a leading business newspaper is a troll post?

[JimGant]

18 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I believe that is what your quote above is intended to convey.

I don't know what that quote was intended to convey, or from whom, or at what level. It came about early in the Por 161 goat rope -- and maybe we'll hear no more about it.

 

28 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

DTA doesn't mean you can't be taxed by both countries, but we like to think of it in those terms for simplicity. 

Actually, the US always (because of the saving clause) has the right, albeit secondarily, to tax income the DTA says is "exclusively" taxable by Thailand. Thus, if this phrase resurfaces with some authority, certainly Yanks should have no reason to file a Thai tax return. Germans, for example, will -- if they remit private pensions to Thailand.

[anchadian]

21 minutes ago, Porthos said:

 

An article from a leading business newspaper is a troll post?

If you had been following this thread previously or I should say posting in this thread, you would see that the penalties for non-filing are clearly shown.

 

Why post a link which is in the Thai language?

Scaremongering I would call it.

[Johno57]

On 1/15/2025 at 10:29 PM, sungod said:

 Money for Condos- Carden admitted such matters remain unclear, hope that clears it up.

What a <deleted> approach to foreigners investments in the condo industry that employs thousands of thai workers...HOW ABOUT SOME CLARITY...

[Samh]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:11 PM, snoop1130 said:

 

Attendees raised questions about investment transfers, such as using overseas funds to buy a Thai condominium, but Carden admitted such matters remain unclear. He acknowledged the Revenue Department’s intent to widen the tax base, with small earners inadvertently caught in policies aimed at wealthy Thais, reported Pattaya Mail.

 

 

 

So that is as clear as mud then. I wish they would stop referring the tax on "income" and refer to tax on bank deposits.

[anchadian]

Furthermore, this article in the Thai language appears to be directed to Thais.  There is no mention of foreigners.

Check first, be careful. Penalty for not filing taxes in the form of Por.Ngor.Dor. 90/91. Latest update from the Revenue Department. Citizens, government officials, business owners, online sellers, food or product delivery drivers, YouTubers, influencers.

[Celsius]

38 minutes ago, Johno57 said:

What a <deleted> approach to foreigners investments in the condo industry that employs thousands of thai workers...HOW ABOUT SOME CLARITY...

 

Cambodians not Thai