Benjamin arrives at the logical conclusion regarding taxes

[oldcpu]

40 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Well, here is Cardens response

 

But the female Thai Tax person is quite specific at around the 10 minute mark, with the 3 levels

 

1. In Thailand for 180 days or more.

 

2. Remit income in 2024, which was earned in 2024, 

 

3. File a tax return.

 

Section 40 ( 1 ) says : Assessable income is income of the following categories

 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

That seems quite clear to me. Pensions need to be filed.

 

DTA's will then determine whether they are subject to Thai Tax or only taxable in home Country.

 

TEDA's and pension Credits will determine whether you have any tax to pay.

 

 

I disagree with part of what you posted.

 

I believe it is more complex than what you posted.   Section 40(1) is NOT the only section in the Thai Tax code. OK?

 

Please note:

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:
(1) ...
(2) ...
(17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations.
...

 

Ok?

 

That begs the question ...  are POR.161/162, Royal Decree 743 (for LTR visas) and Thailand Double Tax agreements included under the category of Ministerial regulations?  

 

If they are, then what they may say about tax exemption is very important, as any tax exempt income noted by them is not to be included for the purpose of income tax calculations (per Section 42 of the Thai tax code).

 

Ok?  So if one's DTA (for example such as the Thai-Canada DTA - which says only Canada has the right to tax a Canadian sourced pension or similar Canadian sourced remuneration), then such income if remitted to Thailand is exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

 

If that is one's only income, then one has no income to be included for income tax calculation, and hence if no assessable income one does not meet the threshold of assessable income for filing a Thai tax return.

 

Clearly eveyone's financial sitution is different but the point is that there is more to this than just section 40.1.

 

The second point is everyone needs to evaluate their own financial situation and be careful of blindly following anyone's general guidelines.

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Typical foreigners thinking the law is there for them only.

This law does not discriminate.  Thai or foreigner, if you are inside Thailand for 180 days, you WILL BE deemed a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

I am not sure where in my post you think I alluded to the law only being there for foreigners.  Thailand has a large diaspora.  Most remit money back to their family.

 

18 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Rich Thai people bring in a lot more than the foreign pensioners. 

I accept that, but not every Thai tax resident (over 180 days in country) are pensioners, are they?  I'm not, and I'm living here.  

 

The difference is, whether they pay their tax or not, Thai's have a birthright to reside in Thailand.  They are Thai citizens. 

 

On the other hand, foreigners who are tax residents and do not pay their tax, MAY be fined and / or deported.  Big difference. 

 

It seems to me you are a "typical foreigner" believing that the stamp in your passport gives you a "right" to live in Thailand.  It does not.  It's nothing more than "permission" and can be revoked at any time, possibly due to an action that is your own fault, or possibly to a change in government possible which is completely out of your control. 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

That begs the question ...  are POR.161/162, Royal Decree 743 (for LTR visas) and Thailand Double Tax agreements included under the category of Ministerial regulations?  

 

This is my understanding

 

POR 161 / 162 is an Interdepartmental memorandum.

 

Royal Decree for LTR Visa, I have no idea.

 

DTA's are International Agreements. rather than Ministerial Regulations.

 

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Ok?  So if one's DTA (for example such as the Thai-Canada DTA - which says only Canada has the right to tax a pension or similar remuneration), then such income if remitted to Thailand is exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation.

 

I already covered Pensions when I wrote

 

Quote

1. In Thailand for 180 days or more.

 

2. Remit income in 2024, which was earned in 2024, 

 

3. File a tax return.

 

Quote

That seems quite clear to me. Pensions need to be filed.

 

DTA's will then determine whether they are subject to Thai Tax or only taxable in home Country.

 

TEDA's and pension Credits will determine whether you have any tax to pay.

 

Which is probably why the girl at the RD told me I had to file my UK Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

[oldcpu]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This is my understanding

 

POR 161 / 162 is an Interdepartmental memorandum.

 

Royal Decree for LTR Visa, I have no idea.

 

DTA's are International Agreements. rather than Ministerial Regulations.

 

 

I don't see this as definitive as you.   I would counter that POR 161/162 , Royal Decree, and even DTAs are intended to clarify (or be used in parallel with)  Ministerial Regulations and the tax code, and as such, are to be included in the category of  Ministerial regulations.

 

Do I know this for certain. No. Obviously not.

 

Which is why, despite my being on an LTR visa, I brought no money into Thailand in tax year 2024, and until this is clarified I can easily go a few more years at my same life style without bringing more money into Thailand.  By then I hope there is more clarity.

 

But - if I had to bet - I would bet my interpretation correct.  Fortunately, I do not have to make that bet.

.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/17/2025 at 3:50 PM, rattlesnake said:

 

They will not do it if it is complicated to do. At the first difficulty, they will prefer to drop everything than spend one second struggling, it's a cultural thing.

Is Thailand's immigration policy "complicated?"  Money in the bank, money every money, reporting, re-entry permits, many different visa classes, overstay fines / black listing, work permits, occupations reserved for Thai's etc etc. 

 

They seem to enforce their immigration policy upon foreigners quite strictly.  

 

Why do you think they are incapable of enforcing tax policy against foreigners also? 

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Which is probably why the girl at the RD told me I had to file my UK Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

 

Out of curiosity  did you find a location on the Thai tax form to list it as exempt?

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Out of curiosity  did you find a location on the Thai tax form to list it as exempt?

 

I posted a draft copy she pencilled in for me.

 

But I have not filed yet and I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that is meant to be coming.

[oldcpu]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

I posted a draft copy she pencilled in for me.

 

But I have not filed yet and I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that is meant to be coming.

 

I think I saw it and it made no sense in regard to exempt income.  I suspect that would totally confuse anyone in the RD other than her.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

I think I saw it and it made no sense in regard to exempt income.  I suspect that would totally confuse anyone in the RD other than her.

 

I'm not in any rush, I am close to the small RD Office, probably 3 times a week, and there is still plenty of tome for the updated paperwork to appear and go and file, or not bother, as the case me be.

 

All my paperwork is already filed in an A4 envelope, it will either get filed in a drawer at home, or transferred onto official paperwork and handed in to the RD office.

 

Couldn't really care either way. Whichever way I go, they wont be getting any tax off me 😀😀

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 7:11 AM, Dan O said:

And how exactly do you think they will create a flow chart of all the different countries with all the individual DTA's that would be comprehendable to immigration which has no connection to the Revenue Department?  They can't even connect the dots on traffic ticket payments\avoidance or come up with a easy to follow preemptive overstay alert on exits from the country. Then throw in the ever present variable of interpretation of legal wording with each imm office 

Easy.

 

Immigration Officer:  Do you have tax clearance certificate?

 

Expat:  No.

 

Immigration Officer:  Can not extend. Must have tax clearance certificate. 

 

Expat:  Ok.

 

Expat goes to TRD Office. 

 

TRD Officer:  I see you are from Australia?  (Australia as an example country)

 

Expat:  Yes.  

 

TRD Officer:  I see you are married and over 65?  Is that correct?

 

Expat:  Yes.

 

TRD Officer:  Australia pension is $1047.10AUD every 2 weeks.  That is  $27,244.60AUD for 1 year.  That is 585,328.90THB a year.  (example exchange rate)  I take off money for married.  I take off money for age.  I take off money for tax free threshold.  Total you owe is 15,000 baht .  (example figure) 

 

Expat:  Ok. How can I pay.

 

TRD Officer:  You go that desk over there.  After pay, you get certificate of clearance. 

 

Expat:  Ok. 

 

Expat goes back to immigration office. 

 

Immigration Officer:  You have certificate of clearance?

 

Expat:  Yes. 

 

Immigration Officer:  Ok.  Here is your extension.  

 

Yes, yes, the above is rocket science.  Too many dots for the Thai's to connect.  

 

Oh, Oh, but assessable and non assessable, DTA's, pre 2024 saving blah, blah, blah - they won't give a sh*t.  You want to live in Thailand, here's your tax bill. 

 

As I have said in the past, the money owed very well may not be the actual amount that should be owed, but TiT. 

 

I have also said, the certificate of clearance could be like the certificate of residence.  A flat 500, 1000, or whatever for the document, NO RECEIPT. 

 

Time will tell, but don't sell the Thai's short when it comes to making a quick and easy baht out of foreigners. 

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'm not in any rush, I am close to the small RD Office, probably 3 times a week, and there is still plenty of tome for the updated paperwork to appear and go and file, or not bother, as the case me be.

 

All my paperwork is already filed in an A4 envelope, it will either get filed in a drawer at home, or transferred onto official paperwork and handed in to the RD office.

 

Couldn't really care either way. Whichever way I go, they wont be getting any tax off me 😀😀

 

Best wishes in how this works out for you.

 

We all need to look at our own financial situation and decide what is the best way forward.

 

I knew that I would owe no tax to Thailand as I was under the LTR-WP visa, and my Canadian pension income was exclusively taxable by Canada (per the Canada-Thai DTA). 

 

However the 'big' question for me back in late 2023 was looking ahead,  would I (in over a years time) need  to file a tax return for upcoming 2024 tax year??  A quick look at the Thai tax return forms (from year 2017 to 2022 and later-2023 - yes I quickly looked at them all) was I could find no place for exemptions for my non-taxable (by Thailand) Canadian pensions, nor any place for income exemption from an LTR-WP visa holder (where one would expect the 2023 tax year form to have such). 

 

That is why I then read section-42 of the Thai tax code with interest (which states income not to be included in a Thailand tax calculation) and are leaning toward that section indicating such income is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation.

 

However - I also am no tax expert.  So I decided to bring no income into Thailand for tax year 2024.

 

Then my Thai wife (who was equally puzzled as myself) tried to get a tax-ID for me (she filed on-line, and it went to Bangkok-RD, and was forwarded to the provincial RD where I live).  A provincial RD official phoned my wife and I advised since I was not bringing income into Thailand (for tax year 2024) and since I had no Thai income,  I did not need a TIN and did not need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 tax year.  When my wife asked more questions, the official could not answer such, said he would call back, and he never did.

 

I do think every expat should seriously look at their own tax situation, and make a judgement call as to what they should do.

 

For certain, the current tax forms (year 2023 in English, and also google translation of Thai year 2024 tax form) have no place on them that I could find, where one can list income exempt due to a DTA (such as your case), nor income exempt due to Por.161/162, nor income exempt due to the LTR.  Which is why I believe Thai tax code section-42(17) is very relevant.

 

I guess we will find out with time.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

However the 'big' question for me back in late 2023 was would I need  to file a tax return?? 

 

That was the only question I had last year. Not through the Forum I got an answer that I thought was correct. Not taxable in Thailand, no need to file.

 

I have changed my mind on this, and believe that Pensions ( at least ) will have to be filed. Other incomes I have avoided as they do not concern me.

 

 

[oldcpu]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

That was the only question I had last year. Not through the Forum I got an answer that I thought was correct. Not taxable in Thailand, no need to file.

 

I have changed my mind on this, and believe that Pensions ( at least ) will have to be filed. Other incomes I have avoided as they do not concern me.

 

 

 

Again best wishes.  Given there is no place on the tax return to list those pensions as exempt, and you likely (??) have to use a place in the tax return form not specifically intended for a DTA exemption, ... i am curious as to how the tax return will be received and initially evaluated by the RD. My guess is you will have questions  from them, or possibly get an incorrect tax assessment by them. And then one is into the appeal process.

 

But my guess could be wrong. It won't be the first time I have been wrong. After all, This is Thailand.

[Yumthai]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

However the 'big' question for me back in late 2023 was would I need  to file a tax return??  A quick look at the Thai tax return forms (from year 2017 to 2022 and later-2023 - yes I quickly looked at them all) was I could find no place for exemptions for my non-taxable (by Thailand) Canadian pensions, nor any place for income exemption from an LTR-WP visa holder (where one would expect the 2023 tax year form to have such). 

 

That is why I then read section-42 of the Thai tax code with interest (which states income not to be included in a Thailand tax calculation) and are leaning toward that section indicating such income is not to be included in the Thai tax calculation.

 

However - I also am no tax expert.  So I decided to bring no income into Thailand for tax year 2024.

 

Then my Thai wife (who was equally puzzled as myself) tried to get a tax-ID for me (she filed on-line, and it went to Bangkok-RD, and was forwarded to the provincial RD where I live).  A provincial RD official phoned my wife and I advised since I was not bringing income into Thailand (for tax year 2024) and since I had no Thai income,  I did not need a TIN and did not need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 tax year.  When my wife asked more questions, the official could not answer such, said he would call back, and he never did.

 

I do think every expat should seriously look at their own tax situation, and make a judgement call as to what they should do.

It seems you forgot to switch off looping mode.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Again best wishes.  Given there is no place on the tax return to list those pensions as exempt, and you likely (??) have to use a place in the tax return form not specifically intended for a DTA exemption

 

Nope, I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that the RD said would be forthcoming.

 

I have said it at least a dozen times, there must be a very good reason why the 2024 filing forms have not been uploaded here

 

Seems strange that there is forms from 2017 - 23, yet no forms for 2024.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

 

I have also said on numerous occasions, I would not be surprised to see something like 

 

PND 92 Foreign Income 

 

Making an appearance, speculation of course, but not beyond the realms of possibility

 

Actually it makes sense, rather than change the current PND 90 / 91.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 5:19 AM, Presnock said:

I have notice some other countries too making tax chnges...latest being Spain which announced that they would charge a 100% tax on houses sold to anyone other than the EU including those from the UK that purchases houses in Spain. 

Australia made similar foreign ownership of property law changes a while ago as well. 

 

On 1/18/2025 at 5:19 AM, Presnock said:

we are now in the file your 2024 taxes so that should be interesting too to see any numbers of foreigners filing and amounts the revenue dept have been able to get from expats. 

They only have to get 1 baht extra revenue, and that's 1 baht more than they had before. 

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nope, I am awaiting the updated paperwork, that the RD said would be forthcoming.

 

I have said it at least a dozen times, there must be a very good reason why the 2024 filing forms have not been uploaded here

 

Seems strange that there is forms from 2017 - 23, yet no forms for 2024.

 

 

I agree its puzzling.  In fact, if one looks at the Thai page, the tax year 2024 Thai language and even the Thai 2025 Thai language tax year forms are available.

 

On the English language page only up to year 2023 English language tax forms.

 

I did try to compare the 2023 Thai and 2023 English forms (where I translated the 2023 Thai forms to English with Google translate).  A large part of them are identical, but not 100% identical.  The differences thou, did not appear to me to be related to exempt income. Nothing in English language Thai tax form form 2023 for  DTAs (nor LTR visa which was present in 2023). 

 

I suspect many of us are curious, and watching this with interest.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 5:01 AM, newbee2022 said:

I agree with 100%. The Damocles sword would be to combine the tax form with visa extension. And yes, why the govt shouldn't do it?

Immigration have for decades included the Thai banks for an extension. A document for 800k or 65k needed. 

 

Is it so unimaginable to think they can not / will not add a required document for the TRD? 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/18/2025 at 4:28 AM, connda said:

Nothing has changed other than 1) closing a loophole for the time periods for remittances that is aimed more at Thai citizens than anyone else, and 2) people like yourself who are freaking out because some savvy tax consultants stoked the fires of fear in the expat community with ฿฿฿฿฿฿ THB-signs in their eyes.

I'm not Thai, and neither are you, so who cares about the Thai's tax liabilities?

 

I am not freaking out.  Said it a few time before, I have no problem doing Danang - Vietnam for 6 months a year.  I have already picked out the condo block. 

 

I accept what you say about "savvy tax consultants" but I have never been influenced by them. 

 

What you don't seem to understand is, I really don't care what they do in Thailand to foreigners in relation to this tax policy. 

 

I have no emotional attachments here, and a very very small financial attachment here.  As I have said in the past, I show Thailand the same loyalty as it shows me - ZERO.

 

You, on the other hand, well, it seems you are the one "freaking out" because you have invested emotionally and financially in Thailand.  That's why the Thai government loves guys like you.  They have you under their thumb.   

 

You see, it's the Thai government that have $$$$$$$$ THB in their eyes when looking at you, and that's because you have to stay trapped in their 180 days tax residency law.  Me, on the other hand, they might get me this year, and that was my choice to test the waters, but given what happens this year, they may never get me again.  

 

On 1/18/2025 at 4:28 AM, connda said:

Good lord...I'll worry about it IF it happens. 

That's the difference between you and me.  

 

Firstly, I'm not worried.  I am looking at all options, possibilities, Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C.  It's just a forward thinking strategy.  

 

It appears you are more of a sit back and wait and see guy.  Fine.  Each to their own, right?

 

On 1/18/2025 at 4:28 AM, connda said:

My country's DTA drops me below any tax threshold. 

I would be interested in why you think your DTA ensures you pay no tax in Thailand. 

 

On 1/18/2025 at 4:28 AM, connda said:

Feel free to shake in you boots flip-flops. Or maybe your a wearer of Berluti or Christian Louboutin luxury shoes, in which case, maybe you have something to worry about tax-wise.  In that case?  Pay up rich man! 

I have a few dollars in the bank and some assets back home, but I don't flaunt it in Thailand and paint a target on myself. 

 

As said, I volunteered to be part of the "experiment" in 2024.  If all this tax "thing" never happens, great, if it does, and I feel I've been ripped off, it's Thailand 6 months and Vietnam 6 months, and Thailand will get NOTHING from me by way of resident taxation going forward.  Either way, I really don't care. 

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Is Thailand's immigration policy "complicated?"  Money in the bank, money every money, reporting, re-entry permits, many different visa classes, overstay fines / black listing, work permits, occupations reserved for Thai's etc etc. 

 

They seem to enforce their immigration policy upon foreigners quite strictly.  

 

Why do you think they are incapable of enforcing tax policy against foreigners also? 

 

I think that if they try to implement it, the Thai administration will have a lot of trouble managing the DTA issues, checking who owes what and/or managing claims and refund requests, enforcing payment on those who don't file anything, and ultimately, this is going to be an inextricable entanglement of problems which I anticipate will result in many offices simply not enforcing it because they won't even begin to understand and/or agree amongst each other what needs to be done and how.

 

I think you are correct in your assessment that increasing revenue is the key driver in this process: when the Thai authorities realise that this endeavour is having the opposite effect, i.e. people leaving in droves (and I know several who have already left), combined with a negative image compared to more welcoming neighbouring countries, I anticipate this law will join (or remain in) the long list of laws which are not applied.

 

I would not be surprised if they ended up charging a flat tax of 1,000 baht as a "processing fee" to every long-staying farang extending their visa, and all we would need to do is check a box stating "I certify being a resident of a country having a DTA with Thailand". If, say, 200,000 people are liable to the tax, that's 20 million extra per year for Thailand, just 1,000 baht extra per year for us, face is saved and everybody comes out satisfied. Now that, IMO, sounds a lot more Thai-realistic.

[rattlesnake]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Easy.

 

Immigration Officer:  Do you have tax clearance certificate?

 

Expat:  No.

 

Immigration Officer:  Can not extend. Must have tax clearance certificate. 

 

Expat:  Ok.

 

Expat goes to TRD Office. 

 

TRD Officer:  I see you are from Australia?  (Australia as an example country)

 

Expat:  Yes.  

 

TRD Officer:  I see you are married and over 65?  Is that correct?

 

Expat:  Yes.

 

TRD Officer:  Australia pension is $1047.10AUD every 2 weeks.  That is  $27,244.60AUD for 1 year.  That is 585,328.90THB a year.  (example exchange rate)  I take off money for married.  I take off money for age.  I take off money for tax free threshold.  Total you owe is 15,000 baht .  (example figure) 

 

Expat:  Ok. How can I pay.

 

TRD Officer:  You go that desk over there.  After pay, you get certificate of clearance. 

 

Expat:  Ok. 

 

Expat goes back to immigration office. 

 

Immigration Officer:  You have certificate of clearance?

 

Expat:  Yes. 

 

Immigration Officer:  Ok.  Here is your extension.  

 

Yes, yes, the above is rocket science.  Too many dots for the Thai's to connect.  

 

Oh, Oh, but assessable and non assessable, DTA's, pre 2024 saving blah, blah, blah - they won't give a sh*t.  You want to live in Thailand, here's your tax bill. 

 

As I have said in the past, the money owed very well may not be the actual amount that should be owed, but TiT. 

 

I have also said, the certificate of clearance could be like the certificate of residence.  A flat 500, 1000, or whatever for the document, NO RECEIPT. 

 

Time will tell, but don't sell the Thai's short when it comes to making a quick and easy baht out of foreigners. 

 

"Time will tell, but don't sell the Thai's short when it comes to making a quick and easy baht out of foreigners."

 

They are also very sensitive about their image abroad. Currently, this tax thing is very negatively perceived and neighbouring countries are increasingly presented as better alternatives.

 

We should never forget about face-saving and its influence on the Thais' behaviour: IMO this will weigh in the process and final decision on how to proceed.