My Thai Tax Office Tax Filing Experience...

[newbee2022]

This might be helpful for some here:

[jwest10]

12 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I don't you think you actually have a problem Sheryl. Did you watch the video I posted on Tuesday? In it the MD of Tax Talk was asked whether those whose remitted assessable income was below the tax threshold need to file a tax return. He stated, quite clearly that they did not And a senior legal officer from TRD did not contradict him! (View the video from about 28 minutes if you don't care to watch it all)

 

So I guess from that and @NoDisplayName' comment above, you've no need to sweat about it.

 

 

Heard that and made it even worse and noted the laughing  of  one of them but asked a one question the other week and it was simple but replied what do you want from me?

[newbee2022]

10 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Situation with my provincial tax office (a province with almost no foreign retirees) could not be more different. 

 

2 years in a row  I filed returns with just interest income . It was disaster. RD had never seen such a   thing, never heard of a retired foreign person living in Thailand and refused to believe it was even possible: I must, according to them, be working here.  Interrogation went on for several unpleasant days. After which I stopped trying to get interest witholding back. 

 

 

Well Sheryl, that's similar to my experience in CM. 

Last year I went to the office and they were looking at me like 😳😳😳.

Not to bother them with their own laws I said thank you and left.

This year's experience you can follow on my thread "tax files".

Improvement? 

[Raindancer]

5 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Heard that and made it even worse and noted the smirk of  Carl Tuner!!

It would have been even clearer, had the proper question been asked.  The question asked in this webinar, is somewhat ambiguous, depending on how individuals interpret it.

 

They could have asked:

"Do those above the tax thresholds of 60/120 k, whose personal income,  falls below the personal/ joint TRD income tax allowances/ exemptions,  need to even file a TIN"?

 

I'm in no rush!

[Moonlover]

51 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Further,  there is no way on the current tax forms to indicate non-assessable income. 

But @Sheryl Why should there be? If it's non-assessable it doesn't need to be entered on a tax return. IMO All it's likely to do is cause confusion amongst TRD staff who have never heard of DTAs until this year.

 

48 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

In no shape or form is this so-called non-existent tax form linked with permission to stay by means of  retirement  and it is not a visa and they are not linked and basically stated "under your circumstances you do not need to fill in a non-existent tax form!!!

 

Yes I agree with you. As I've already stated, my assessable reemitted income is well below my Thai tax threshold. Therefor by NOT submitting a tax return I will NOT be avoiding or evading tax, so would be nothing that they can hang me for. No crime = no punishment.

 

To my knowledge, no one in the TRD has indicated that failure to submit a tax return could result in problems with visas/extensions. That seems to emanate from tax advisers and mischievous/ill-informed wanna be tax advisers. The former of course having a vested interest in watching the community panic over this.

 

In quite a large poll of expats by the 'Thai Enquirer', 58% indicated that they WILL NOT be filing tax returns. Does one suppose that TRD would go to all trouble chasing these expats, only to discover that most them will not owe them any tax anyway or very little if they do? To my mind it seems like a very unlikely scenario..

 

I've read a great deal regarding this matter and taken on board experiences posted on this and other forums and my conclusion is:

 

No TIN, no tax file, sit back and relax. 

[HuaHinNew]

 

[samtam]

13 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

and the withholding tax for Thai-sourced interest/dividends reported in section 1 of the PN90. 

 

 

@NoDisplayName we've discussed this issue before, but I wonder if you can tell me where in Section 1 (or Section 3?) I put the Withholding Tax Refund?

 

Let's assume I have gross interest income of THB7000 pa and WHT of THB1000. Into which box do I insert these. Also, what if I want to claim for the years 2024, 2023 & 2022? Can they all go on the 2024 return?

 

(I have been informed - unverified by TRD - that WHT refunds don't go on PND90.

 

 

 

Thanks, if you can help clarify.

[jwest10]

13 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I don't you think you actually have a problem Sheryl. Did you watch the video I posted on Tuesday? In it the MD of Tax Talk was asked whether those whose remitted assessable income was below the tax threshold need to file a tax return. He stated, quite clearly that they did not And a senior legal officer from TRD did not contradict him! (View the video from about 28 minutes if you don't care to watch it all)

 

So I guess from that and @NoDisplayName' comment above, you've no need to sweat about it.

 

 

Savings and have the balances as of 1st Jan 2024 and yes obviously drawn down are not taxable and yes did here of this but replayed just a minute ago and very clear indeed and confirmed that if assessable income well below the thresholds of 500 or 560K allowances no tax form is required.
That includes the first 150k

[chang50]

3 hours ago, jesimps said:

Regarding the UK/Thai DTA, are you an UK ex government worker? I've been advised by a lawyer here that those in this category do not need to file in Thailand. I've read the DTA and it does state that those on a government (not state) pension ie civil servants are exempt from paying tax on it here. I welcome comments from anyone who's been advised differently.

Not an ex government worker...although they never asked probably as they spoke little English.I was hoping to get credit for the UK tax paid not an exemption.

[RPCVguy]

13 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I don't you think you actually have a problem Sheryl. Did you watch the video I posted on Tuesday? In it the MD of Tax Talk was asked whether those whose remitted assessable income was below the tax threshold need to file a tax return. He stated, quite clearly that they did not And a senior legal officer from TRD did not contradict him! (View the video from about 28 minutes if you don't care to watch it all)

 

So I guess from that and @NoDisplayName' comment above, you've no need to sweat about it.

 

 

THANK YOU!
I had missed seeing this video, but have now not only watched it in its entirety, but have saved the link, and forwarded it to 3 of my Thai family members who (like me) have assessable income BELOW THE THRESHOLD FOR WHICH IT IS EVEN NECESSARY to file a tax return. In my case, that includes not even needing to get a Tax ID#. The absolute advantage of the video is that they can hear the Thai Q&A directly.
I had approached our rural RD office last September, and there was no awareness of DTA exclusions like Social Security.

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Have you tried to file online?

 

Get your bank withholding statement, take a photo, crop the JPEG.  Upload when you file.  Refund letter you take to Krung Thai (unless your bank lets you link pink ID to your account for PromptPay) should arrive in a couple weeks.

 

If you read Thai, filing should take you ten minutes.  Twenty if you have to cut-n-paste into google translate.

I have considered this, yes. But concerned it might get flagged (this year especially with the revised rule on remittances) and then referred to the provincial RD to review. 

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, RPCVguy said:

....
I had approached our rural RD office last September, and there was no awareness of DTA exclusions like Social Security.

I've yet to hear of a single RD aware of this.  Some have never heard of a DTA, period. Others understand only the concept of tax crefits.

 

Even in future I cannot envision provincial RDs being aware of the contents of more than 60 different DTAs. 

[OneManShow]

17 hours ago, WingNut said:

It would also help to avoid possible problems with visa extensions in case the Immigration Department ever starts requiring copies of tax return filings in the future to obtain a visa extension on the basis of retirement.

That could be a future problem for expats as it has been mentioned in the tax guide provided by an AN post. 
I was told the same at a tax office, however the big boss of the office had no clue regarding foreign tax return and how DTA works.

I was advised by the head, file but don't pay any tax since you are from DTA country. 

[baansgr]

My private pension is taxed in UK, I also get share dividends that are not due UK tax as paid through an ISA ...if push comes.to shove I could just.pay into my Thai partners account..anyway, I see no need to report anything....or am I wrong

[Raindancer]

7 minutes ago, OneManShow said:

That could be a future problem for expats as it has been mentioned in the tax guide provided by an AN post. 

I'll concern myself if we ever get to that requirement.  I can't see it being required to be  certified by embassies, nor their desire to get involved.

 

The DTA documentation is quite clear.   As is Royal Decree # 18

[NorthernRyland]

You're really jumping the gun here. If you go to the right tax office they may allow you pay taxes based their own personal understanding of the matter and may even be making up rules that don't exist in law. Good work you've found out how to give money to government. You could have been doing this years ago if you wanted to btw.

[Jonathan Swift]

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thank you for sharing this. However in your case it appears your remittances were assessable, even though no tax due.

 

For people like myself whose remittances are all  non-assessable , most reports from tax offices say not to file.  Which does not jibe with "must file if a tax resident". 

 

Further,  there is no way on the current tax forms to indicate non-assessable income. 

That is what I was told by a Thai/UK tax expert specializing in expats. I have social security non assessable income

[Jonathan Swift]

thanks for your post. I'm sure it helps a lot of people  as a direct hands on experience

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

Savings and have the balances as of 1st Jan 2024 and yes obviously drawn down are not taxable and yes did here of this but replayed just a minute ago and very clear indeed and confirmed that if assessable income well below the thresholds of 500 or 560K allowances no tax form is required.
That includes the first 150k

 

In the video it was asked and answered if one has assessable income that is below the filing thresholds, does one need to file?  The tax return assessable income filing thresholds are (single) 60k/120k and (married combined) 120k/220k, as stated in Section 56 of the Tax Code.

 

There are no thresholds for filing that incorporate deduction of expenses and allowances and the first 150k of the 0% tax band. 

 

The threshold referred to is for filing, not for taxation.

 

For example, if you are filing single aged over 65, there is an exemption of 190k. If your assessable income remitted to Thailand is 150k, you still need to file -- because the filing threshold is 120k. 

[maichai40]

12 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Situation with my provincial tax office (a province with almost no foreign retirees) could not be more different. 

 

2 years in a row  I filed returns with just interest income . It was disaster. RD had never seen such a   thing, never heard of a retired foreign person living in Thailand and refused to believe it was even possible: I must, according to them, be working here.  Interrogation went on for several unpleasant days. After which I stopped trying to get interest witholding back. 

 

 

That was my experience too few years ago in an Amphur tax office in Chiang Mai when asking my taxes on fixed deposits back. 

They said never seen this before and, since i was on retired visa they didn't believe i was not working. But at the end i got the reimbursement. Same thing the next few years.

This year just did it two days ago and all was much easier with no hassles and fast, some new personnel working there probably with more knowledge, and about my incomes they just asked if i had anything to declare, which was none. Only they said i will have to wait about 30 to 60 days to receive the check because foreigners are done for last.

[jesimps]

4 hours ago, Raindancer said:

Which begs the question- to obtain a TIN or not, based upon one's own circumstances. 

 

My Uk state pension falls below my current exemptions of 560k per year.

My Military salary/ pension, is covered under the DTA agreement. 

 

Yes, I'm aware of the 60/ 120k per annum rule.

 

It seems pointless filing a TIN, when so many have reported that their TRD local offices, have stated " no need".

 

So, I have records of all uk/ Thailand transfers, plus HMRC documentation of income and tax paid.  Along with the annual P60 confirming everything.

 

Guess I'll just wait out.

Ditto!

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, gearbox said:

Not really a tax return filing experience, but this week I went to Bangkok bank to open term deposit, as I would be away for a while. I wasn't able to open the deposit until I provided my Australian tax file number. Another Aussie was doing something else at the next counter, and he was also sent back to find his Aussie tax file number.

 

Seems that CRS is kicking in, and if worldwide income taxation is introduced it would be fairly difficult to work around. Less than 180 days is my solution.

 

That's all CRS does to us as individuals.  We have to identify ourselves and declare any other tax jurisdictions we fall under.

 

Uncle Sam's property has always had to fill out FATCA IRS forms.

Welcome to the club.

[Raindancer]

Just now, jesimps said:

Ditto!

I guess we'll both have to stand easy and ease springs, until ordered otherwise😀

[jesimps]

3 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Wingnut

May I ask which office?
Yes different Revenue offices stating differently and yes there have been thousands upon thousands of posts and from so-called experts and I know been stating so many differing viewpoints.

Right, I have been around to my local Revenue office and several; times with my handwritten figures of pension income and am well below the allowed thresholds of 500 or 560K Baht.
They have asked " Do you have employment here in Thailand"
No I do not and so  got a reply so  with your circumstances you do not need to.

Also a Thai friend of mine and his wife who knows some in that office and stated the same.
 

I got the same reply as you when I went to Jomtien Tax Office. I only went to make doubly sure that I was exempt from filing under the Thai/UK DTA. The lady I saw wasn't interested in what income I brought in, or the DTA. She asked me one question "Do you work in Thailand". When I replied in the negative, she said "Then you pay tax to your home country. Why you want to pay here too?" I left without a TIN.

[samtam]

16 hours ago, chang50 said:

Disclaimer this is not tax advice just my recent experience.In my case I went to Jomtien to get a TIN and ended up unexpectedly filing a tax return as I had a yearly bank statement with me detailing all my remittances to Thailand which actually saved me a return trip and I ended up paying a very small amount of tax. I had remitted money to Thailand from my UK pensions one private which I had paid tax on in the UK and my old age pension.However they refused to even consider the Thai UK dta which I thought would have reduced my liability to zero giving me the impression it was better not to argue.They also dismissed one debit card purchase from a UK bank.I suspect just like immigration offices policies will vary from office to office or even between individual officers.I left with mixed emotions glad to have the experience over with but also feeling my case was possibly not properly dealt with.

 

as I had a yearly bank statement with me detailing all my remittances to Thailand

 

 

4 hours ago, Andycoops said:

Thanks Wingnut, I plan on doing my filing next month and was going to include my bank statements in case they asked for them.

 

going to include my bank statements 

 

@chang50 @Andycoops

 

Are you referring to Thailand banks' statements? If so, are you submitting these as "certified true copies"?

 

The bank statements to support my "remittances" (in reality ATM, Debit Card, FPS QR) are all overseas banks. They are composite statements, in multicurrencies. I was verbally advised they would have to be "certified true" copies, which I imagine will be a novel concept to a non-Thai bank, (having to certify their own statements); certainly not an exercise without a fee, even if they agree to do it at all.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, samtam said:

 

 

@NoDisplayName we've discussed this issue before, but I wonder if you can tell me where in Section 1 (or Section 3?) I put the Withholding Tax Refund?

 

Let's assume I have gross interest income of THB7000 pa and WHT of THB1000. Into which box do I insert these. Also, what if I want to claim for the years 2024, 2023 & 2022? Can they all go on the 2024 return?

 

(I have been informed - unverified by TRD - that WHT refunds don't go on PND90.

 

 

 

Thanks, if you can help clarify.

 

Sorry, I really can't help you with the paper form.  I file online only.  The paper form has only ONE field to enter taxpayer number (TIN of company that paid you) for all the possible income streams.  Is there a section 1 extension page we don't know about?  Do you have to file an entire section 1 for each payer?  You'd have to ask at your TRD office.

 

Section 11(13) does allow you to enter withholding tax from PN93, PN94, and the withholding tax from the interest/dividends income you claimed in section 1.  (but NOT foreign tax withheld, if my reading is correct.)

 

If you file online, you scroll to the appropriate dropdown menu, pick your income type, and a popup window appears that lets you enter "total received", "total tax withheld", and "taxpayer ID."  I fill in that info in two popup windows for my bank and my broker.

 

That withheld tax entered in the popup window is automatically deducted from 11(13) when filing online.  It appears on line 13 on the version you submit.  You would have to enter it there yourself on the paper form.  This is where two TRD ladies reportedly deducted foreign tax paid on remitted assessable income.  Whether that is legal or just a wonky workaround is an open question.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

Also, what if I want to claim for the years 2024, 2023 & 2022? Can they all go on the 2024 return?

 

Three separate years, three separate returns.  You can file all three anytime this year, but after March the 2024 will be late.  Late fee is 200 baht, but is only charged one time.  You can pay by bank transfer from within the online system.

 

[samtam]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Sorry, I really can't help you with the paper form.  I file online only.  The paper form has only ONE field to enter taxpayer number (TIN of company that paid you) for all the possible income streams.  Is there a section 1 extension page we don't know about?  Do you have to file an entire section 1 for each payer?  You'd have to ask at your TRD office.

 

Section 11(13) does allow you to enter withholding tax from PN93, PN94, and the withholding tax from the interest/dividends income you claimed in section 1.  (but NOT foreign tax withheld, if my reading is correct.)

 

If you file online, you scroll to the appropriate dropdown menu, pick your income type, and a popup window appears that lets you enter "total received", "total tax withheld", and "taxpayer ID."  I fill in that info in two popup windows for my bank and my broker.

 

That withheld tax entered in the popup window is automatically deducted from 11(13) when filing online.  It appears on line 13 on the version you submit.  You would have to enter it there yourself on the paper form.  This is where two TRD ladies reportedly deducted foreign tax paid on remitted assessable income.  Whether that is legal or just a wonky workaround is an open question.

 

Thanks. I will file online, and will follow the section numbers you list.

Do I need to also then file a PND93 & 94? Can I file going back 3 years on the PND90, or is it covered in 3 separate PND93 & 94 (I can't find those forms on Google)?

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

(I have been informed - unverified by TRD - that WHT refunds don't go on PND90.

 

See instructions for PN90, page 39:

 

No. 11 item 13. Withholding tax credit and tax credit for tax paid in accordance with ภ.ง.ด. 93 and
ภ.ง.ด. 94

~~~

Other items may also be used as a tax credit, such as:
1. Income tax that you have paid using ภ.ง.ด. 94 (half year filing).
2. Income tax that you have paid using ภ.ง.ด. 93 (advanced filing).
3. Dividend tax credit (only in the case that you have filled in No. 3 item 5. and item 6. The amount is the same amount in No. 3 item 6.
Please add up all the creditable tax in No. 11 item 15. This amount will then be deducted from your tax payable in No. 11 item 14. You will have to provide documents to the Revenue Department to prove the amount of withholding tax.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/GUIDE_90_66_Complete.pdf

 

I enter my info online, then upload my bank withholding statement, and my dividend receipts showing tax withheld.  Withholding tax is refunded.  (All Thai-sourced for me, of course)

[NoDisplayName]

Just now, samtam said:

 

Thanks. I will file online, and will follow the section numbers you list.

Do I need to also then file a PND93 & 94? Can I file going back 3 years on the PND90, or is it covered in 3 separate PND93 & 94 (I can't find those forms on Google)?

No.

PN 93 is half year tax filing, PN 94 additional child allowance.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html