Road Safety in Thailand – a summary of Perceptions and Reality

[kwilco]

22 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

, and countless others here, have, in this and other posts, acknowledged that we already know why accidents happen here, and most of us already knew when we took our first drivers test as a teenager.

apparently not. - there's no such thing as an accident, either

[cdemundo]

I would be interested to hear about what nations have improved their road safety and how they have done it.

That would be more interesting than a series of scoldings.

 

"Estonia, Greece, Lithuania, Latvia and Portugal have reduced road deaths the most since 2010"

https://etsc.eu/this-list-of-countries-making-the-most-progress-on-road-safety-in-europe-might-surprise-you/

 

From the google AI summary: (given in response to the search query)

Road and vehicle design and enforcement of speeding and drunk driving laws have been the causes for improvements.

 

[cdnvic]

Removed posts that ignored my earlier warning, and those quoting them.

[kwilco]

14 hours ago, cdemundo said:

I would be interested to hear about what nations have improved their road safety and how they have done it.

That would be more interesting than a series of scoldings.

 

"Estonia, Greece, Lithuania, Latvia and Portugal have reduced road deaths the most since 2010"

https://etsc.eu/this-list-of-countries-making-the-most-progress-on-road-safety-in-europe-might-surprise-you/

 

From the google AI summary: (given in response to the search query)

Road and vehicle design and enforcement of speeding and drunk driving laws have been the causes for improvements.

 

 

 

What a great question!

 

Here’s the link to the video….

https://youtu.be/gRuWVGvkgJo

Note that nowhere in this video do you hear the expression “bad drivers” -or any links of this to nationality.

 

It highlights a key point: road safety improvements are not exclusive to any one nation or culture.

However, some will still try to argue in terms of race and stereotype that "Thailand is different, and these strategies won’t work here"—which implies an unfair assumption that Thais are incapable of change. History proves otherwise.

 

The Global Road Safety is a universal science

The evolution of road safety follows the history of the car in each country. Key factors include:

Car ownership rates, e.g. the more cars on the road, the greater the potential for accidents. Canges in Society  when countries shift from an agrarian to an industrial society impacts vehicle ownership and traffic.

Many nations with high car ownership have developed their own automotive sectors not least of all Thailand.

 

The U.S. was the first to embrace private car ownership, yet ironically, it has not led the way in road safety. Western Europe followed with its own automobile industry, and as industrialization spread globally, road deaths surged. The way each country responded depended on its government’s policies.

 

To assess road safety, researchers usually prefer deaths per number of vehicles and distance travelled rather than per 100,000 people. For example, the U.S. has high car ownership and long driving distances., yet its crash rate per mile is lower than in some countries with fewer cars. Some African nations have low car ownership, but once someone is in a vehicle, their chances of a crash are alarmingly high much higher than Thaiand.

 

Thailand’s progress….According to the 2023 Global Status Report on Road Safety, Thailand had a road traffic death rate of 25.4 per 100,000 people in 2021.

In the past 40 years, Thailand has been transitioning from an agrarian to an industrial society. It has also developed one of the world's largest motor industries—now ranked in the top 15, surpassing the UK’s.

 

However, many forget that back in the 1960s and 1970s, road deaths in other countries were comparable to Thailand’s are today.

 

So, how Have Other Nations Reduced Road Deaths? - The most successful improvements have been in Northern and Western Europe. Sweden led the way by formalizing years of research into the Safe System Approach—a framework based on the principle that no one should be killed or seriously injured on the roads. The Netherlands quickly followed suit.

From the 1980s onward, industrialized nations saw road deaths peak and then decline as governments introduced safety measures. Different countries had varying levels of success:

France in particular had road deaths similar to Thailand’s today in the early 1970s but successfully reduced them despite less advanced car safety at the time. Let’s not forget the notorious French priority on the right rule – mirrored in Thailand – that led to the terrible French crossroads carnage

The formation of the European Union helped to develop coordinated road safety strategies, precursors to the Safe System, leading to consistent declines in fatalities.

 

The Safe System and the 5 Es

The most effective road safety policies follow the 5 Es:

Education – Public awareness campaigns and driver training.

Enforcement – Strict traffic laws and penalties.

Engineering – Safer roads and vehicle design.

Emergency Response – Faster medical aid to crash victims.

Evaluation – Continuous monitoring and policy adjustments.

 

Nations that fully implemented these principles—including Sweden, the UK, and the Netherlands—have achieved single-digit road deaths per 100,000 people, moving toward Vision Zero (zero road deaths) in some countries.

 

Other countries around the world have also made dramatic improvements by adopting Safe System principles:

South Korea, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand all saw significant declines once their authorities embraced comprehensive safety policies.

 

However,  the U.S. alone has lagged behind. While the U.S. made progress in the 1970s and 1980s, it never adopted a national road safety policy. Today, it has one of the worst road safety records in the Western world.

 

Road safety improvements don’t come from people suddenly becoming “better drivers.” They result from government-led, data-driven policies. Countries that have successfully reduced road deaths have done so by implementing all aspects of the Safe System, not just selected parts….and not a mention of “bad drivers” anywhere.

If Thailand fully commits to a similar approach, there’s no reason it cannot achieve the same success.

 

[kwilco]

On 2/3/2025 at 1:37 AM, KannikaP said:

Thank you Chat GPT.

so do you agree or disagree?

[kwilco]

Here is a summary of a paper I read recently which basically underlines what I’ve being saying

 

““Their lives don't matter to politicians”: The necropolitical ecology of Thailand's dangerous and unequal roads”

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0962629823001907

 

Thailand’s high rate of road deaths, is a result of political, economic, and cultural factors  it affects mostly the poorer classes.

 

Here are the 5 Es….

Engineering - Poor road design, the lack of safety measures, (engineering)

Enforcement - Weak enforcement of regulations, (Enforcement)

Education - Insufficient driver education (Education)contribute to the crisis.

Emergency  - Lack of concern leads to slapdash first responder and emergency services - The concept of necropolitical ecology highlights how government inaction and neglect—rather than direct oppression—result in preventable deaths.    

Evaluation - A lack of coordination between agencies working on road safety, poor data collection, widespread corruption, and an ineffective lead agency, have weakened the state’s capacity to address this issue

 

Limited public transport forces people, especially in rural areas, to rely on motorcycles and high-speed vehicles, increasing accident risks. Corruption, fragmented governance, and a lack of political will further weaken state intervention, while the public does not exert pressure on leaders to address the issue.

 

The concept of necropolitical ecology highlights how government inaction and neglect—rather than direct oppression—result in preventable deaths, particularly among marginalized groups. This is a "silent violence”, which deprioritizes safety concerns. Without serious government reforms, and an understanding by the general public for safer roads, these issues will continue. We are looking at road safety in an authoritarian context.

Hopefully the media will learn th basics of road safety and it will change how they report of road incidents and start to give campaigners a voice.

  

 

 

 

[TedG]

This needs a blame pie. 

 

 

[kwilco]

51 minutes ago, TedG said:

This needs a blame pie. 

 

 

you're 50 years out of date - You will never find that in any road safety paper - it is what they have argued against in every successful road safety campaign throughout the world. Do you really think you know something they don't?

[fredwiggy]

On 2/2/2025 at 6:41 AM, kwilco said:

I totally agree that for years Thailand's gathering of stats has been unreliable and incomplete. THe main problem is how the general public iand th media interpret what is available - the WHO is actually quite good at drawing reasonable conclusions from poor stats from countries with similar problems all over the world.

you'd expect stats to cover such things as

Deaths per 1 million inhabitants

Serious Injuries per 1 million inhabitants

Minor injuries per 1 million inhabitants

Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-KM

Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

Registered vehicles per 1000 inhabitants

 

we can be pretty sure that 50% of all registered vehicles on Thai roads are 32- wheelers this is a dangerous mix giver road design and the average size and character of private 4-wheelers.

We can also arue quite strongly that you are statistically less likely to die in a 4-wheeler in Thailand than you are in the USA - yet people consistently cite drivers of 4-wheelers as examples of the dangers on Thai raods when it isn't actually the case

 

They also fail to divide injuries into the 3 internationally recognised categories minor, serious and fatal. It is impossible to get a good idea of the number of collisions.

but - as no-one on this site ever seems to even consider any of this it enables people to run wild with totally irrelevant and wildly prejudiced assumptions about road safety in Thailand..

 

To make changes in road safety in Thailand there need to be fundamental changes in many areas. but to even start, you need a good database of stats to analyse and thai doesn't have that - they don't even gave people trained to make proper crash reports., the base-line for road safety is knowing what you're up against.

Half of the registered vehicles in Thailand are motorbikes. Then there are the cars and trucks, which far outnumber 32 or 18 wheelers, so I'm not sure where you get that nonsense, especially seeing you've been doing this for 20 years in Thailand.

 

If there are millions more vehicles on the road, Like the US has, statistically there will be more accidents, so the per capita thing doesn't really apply here.

 

Again, for quite a few times here, people here are not quoting what they see because of prejudice or racist reasons. We see what we see, and if you've driven as much as I and others who were professional drivers, you see much more of what goes on than the regular driver, and what we see here is much more in the way o reckless and incompetent driving than back home. It isn't irrelevant if it's what most of us here are seeing.

 

To make changes here you don't need stats but enforcement of rules that are already on the books and rules that the people should know if they are given a license. Stats are already there, even if they are a bit misleading because the total deaths and injuries that reach the hospitals aren't immediately shown, but they are when the yearly amount comes up, as hospitals have top give records of all injuries to the government. They are ignoring for the most part what goes on here, besides saying they are going to do something to stop this. This has been said for decades. They know exactly what they're up against. A huge amount o\f reckless, careless drivers, lack of enforcement of rules, and roads that need repairing faster. I'm sure there are quite a few members here who understand what you've said, and knew this many years before, but it's you that's still missing the main point of who is responsible for these accidents first and foremost.

[fredwiggy]

On 2/4/2025 at 11:43 PM, kwilco said:

 

 

What a great question!

 

Here’s the link to the video….

https://youtu.be/gRuWVGvkgJo

Note that nowhere in this video do you hear the expression “bad drivers” -or any links of this to nationality.

 

It highlights a key point: road safety improvements are not exclusive to any one nation or culture.

However, some will still try to argue in terms of race and stereotype that "Thailand is different, and these strategies won’t work here"—which implies an unfair assumption that Thais are incapable of change. History proves otherwise.

 

The Global Road Safety is a universal science

The evolution of road safety follows the history of the car in each country. Key factors include:

Car ownership rates, e.g. the more cars on the road, the greater the potential for accidents. Canges in Society  when countries shift from an agrarian to an industrial society impacts vehicle ownership and traffic.

Many nations with high car ownership have developed their own automotive sectors not least of all Thailand.

 

The U.S. was the first to embrace private car ownership, yet ironically, it has not led the way in road safety. Western Europe followed with its own automobile industry, and as industrialization spread globally, road deaths surged. The way each country responded depended on its government’s policies.

 

To assess road safety, researchers usually prefer deaths per number of vehicles and distance travelled rather than per 100,000 people. For example, the U.S. has high car ownership and long driving distances., yet its crash rate per mile is lower than in some countries with fewer cars. Some African nations have low car ownership, but once someone is in a vehicle, their chances of a crash are alarmingly high much higher than Thaiand.

 

Thailand’s progress….According to the 2023 Global Status Report on Road Safety, Thailand had a road traffic death rate of 25.4 per 100,000 people in 2021.

In the past 40 years, Thailand has been transitioning from an agrarian to an industrial society. It has also developed one of the world's largest motor industries—now ranked in the top 15, surpassing the UK’s.

 

However, many forget that back in the 1960s and 1970s, road deaths in other countries were comparable to Thailand’s are today.

 

So, how Have Other Nations Reduced Road Deaths? - The most successful improvements have been in Northern and Western Europe. Sweden led the way by formalizing years of research into the Safe System Approach—a framework based on the principle that no one should be killed or seriously injured on the roads. The Netherlands quickly followed suit.

From the 1980s onward, industrialized nations saw road deaths peak and then decline as governments introduced safety measures. Different countries had varying levels of success:

France in particular had road deaths similar to Thailand’s today in the early 1970s but successfully reduced them despite less advanced car safety at the time. Let’s not forget the notorious French priority on the right rule – mirrored in Thailand – that led to the terrible French crossroads carnage

The formation of the European Union helped to develop coordinated road safety strategies, precursors to the Safe System, leading to consistent declines in fatalities.

 

The Safe System and the 5 Es

The most effective road safety policies follow the 5 Es:

Education – Public awareness campaigns and driver training.

Enforcement – Strict traffic laws and penalties.

Engineering – Safer roads and vehicle design.

Emergency Response – Faster medical aid to crash victims.

Evaluation – Continuous monitoring and policy adjustments.

 

Nations that fully implemented these principles—including Sweden, the UK, and the Netherlands—have achieved single-digit road deaths per 100,000 people, moving toward Vision Zero (zero road deaths) in some countries.

 

Other countries around the world have also made dramatic improvements by adopting Safe System principles:

South Korea, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand all saw significant declines once their authorities embraced comprehensive safety policies.

 

However,  the U.S. alone has lagged behind. While the U.S. made progress in the 1970s and 1980s, it never adopted a national road safety policy. Today, it has one of the worst road safety records in the Western world.

 

Road safety improvements don’t come from people suddenly becoming “better drivers.” They result from government-led, data-driven policies. Countries that have successfully reduced road deaths have done so by implementing all aspects of the Safe System, not just selected parts….and not a mention of “bad drivers” anywhere.

If Thailand fully commits to a similar approach, there’s no reason it cannot achieve the same success.

 

Countries that have reduced deaths and major accidents have enforced their rules, fining and jailing people. The people they are fining and jailing are breaking the road rules, bad drivers. Not necessarily incompetent but dangerous, to themselves and others. Fixing roads will make driving safer for all drivers, including the bad ones. Bad roads mean one thing, slow down. If you go slow on a bad road, you aren't going to get into an accident. People who are arrogant or incompetent think they can do whatever they want, which makes accidents a lot more likely. Education of drivers is part on the educators shoulders but mostly on the students. If you use an unsafe vehicle, you're taking a risk, which is on you. If the police see this vehicle and know it's unsafe, it's also on them to fix the problem. Good drivers rarely get into accidents, unless they are hit by bad drivers.

[kwilco]

On 2/1/2025 at 11:41 PM, kwilco said:

I totally agree that for years Thailand's gathering of stats has been unreliable and incomplete. THe main problem is how the general public iand th media interpret what is available - the WHO is actually quite good at drawing reasonable conclusions from poor stats from countries with similar problems all over the world.

you'd expect stats to cover such things as

Deaths per 1 million inhabitants

Serious Injuries per 1 million inhabitants

Minor injuries per 1 million inhabitants

Deaths per 10 billion vehicle-KM

Deaths per 100,000 registered vehicles

Registered vehicles per 1000 inhabitants

 

we can be pretty sure that 50% of all registered vehicles on Thai roads are 32- wheelers this is a dangerous mix giver road design and the average size and character of private 4-wheelers.

We can also arue quite strongly that you are statistically less likely to die in a 4-wheeler in Thailand than you are in the USA - yet people consistently cite drivers of 4-wheelers as examples of the dangers on Thai raods when it isn't actually the case

 

They also fail to divide injuries into the 3 internationally recognised categories minor, serious and fatal. It is impossible to get a good idea of the number of collisions.

but - as no-one on this site ever seems to even consider any of this it enables people to run wild with totally irrelevant and wildly prejudiced assumptions about road safety in Thailand..

 

To make changes in road safety in Thailand there need to be fundamental changes in many areas. but to even start, you need a good database of stats to analyse and thai doesn't have that - they don't even gave people trained to make proper crash reports., the base-line for road safety is knowing what you're up against.

Sorry typo - 32 wheelers should read "2 wheelers"!

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Half of the registered vehicles in Thailand are motorbikes. Then there are the cars and trucks, which far outnumber 32 or 18 wheelers, so I'm not sure where you get that nonsense, especially seeing you've been doing this for 20 years in Thailand.

sorry that's a typo - 32 should read 2-wheelers - I"m surpised you dodn't work that out - I expect you did and are just fishing around for something to argue about. Not even sure what you think a "32-wheeler" is?

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Half of the registered vehicles in Thailand are motorbikes. Then there are the cars and trucks, which far outnumber 32 or 18 wheelers, so I'm not sure where you get that nonsense, especially seeing you've been doing this for 20 years in Thailand.

 

If there are millions more vehicles on the road, Like the US has, statistically there will be more accidents, so the per capita thing doesn't really apply here.

 

Again, for quite a few times here, people here are not quoting what they see because of prejudice or racist reasons. We see what we see, and if you've driven as much as I and others who were professional drivers, you see much more of what goes on than the regular driver, and what we see here is much more in the way o reckless and incompetent driving than back home. It isn't irrelevant if it's what most of us here are seeing.

 

To make changes here you don't need stats but enforcement of rules that are already on the books and rules that the people should know if they are given a license. Stats are already there, even if they are a bit misleading because the total deaths and injuries that reach the hospitals aren't immediately shown, but they are when the yearly amount comes up, as hospitals have top give records of all injuries to the government. They are ignoring for the most part what goes on here, besides saying they are going to do something to stop this. This has been said for decades. They know exactly what they're up against. A huge amount o\f reckless, careless drivers, lack of enforcement of rules, and roads that need repairing faster. I'm sure there are quite a few members here who understand what you've said, and knew this many years before, but it's you that's still missing the main point of who is responsible for these accidents first and foremost.

 

10 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

Countries that have reduced deaths and major accidents have enforced their rules, fining and jailing people. The people they are fining and jailing are breaking the road rules, bad drivers. Not necessarily incompetent but dangerous, to themselves and others. Fixing roads will make driving safer for all drivers, including the bad ones. Bad roads mean one thing, slow down. If you go slow on a bad road, you aren't going to get into an accident. People who are arrogant or incompetent think they can do whatever they want, which makes accidents a lot more likely. Education of drivers is part on the educators shoulders but mostly on the students. If you use an unsafe vehicle, you're taking a risk, which is on you. If the police see this vehicle and know it's unsafe, it's also on them to fix the problem. Good drivers rarely get into accidents, unless they are hit by bad drivers.

 

Your argument boils down to ‘I see it, so it must be true,’ which is the exact opposite of how road safety is scientifically analysed.

 

Personal anecdotes don’t trump hard data, and dismissing statistics just because they don’t fit your narrative is just wilful ignorance.

 

Claiming ‘per capita stats don’t apply’ is outright nonsense—that’s literally how international road safety is measured.

 

If you don’t grasp that, you’re not in a position to argue about data.

 

And no, ‘just enforcing rules’ isn’t a magic fix. Countries that actually reduce road deaths do so through data-driven policy, not by blaming ‘bad drivers’—a useless, outdated term.

 

At this point, you’re arguing against research, statistics, and decades of road safety science just to cling to personal bias. If you’re not willing to engage with facts, you’re not worth debating.

 

 

[fredwiggy]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

 

 

Your argument boils down to ‘I see it, so it must be true,’ which is the exact opposite of how road safety is scientifically analysed.

 

Personal anecdotes don’t trump hard data, and dismissing statistics just because they don’t fit your narrative is just wilful ignorance.

 

Claiming ‘per capita stats don’t apply’ is outright nonsense—that’s literally how international road safety is measured.

 

If you don’t grasp that, you’re not in a position to argue about data.

 

And no, ‘just enforcing rules’ isn’t a magic fix. Countries that actually reduce road deaths do so through data-driven policy, not by blaming ‘bad drivers’—a useless, outdated term.

 

At this point, you’re arguing against research, statistics, and decades of road safety science just to cling to personal bias. If you’re not willing to engage with facts, you’re not worth debating.

 

 

If I, and others see it, it IS true. We aren't on mushrooms. A person that drives more then twice the amount of miles than the average driver sees a lot more incidents of driving habits. You seem to think it's racist to say that local drivers, meaning many, and no one said all, have a lot to learn about safe driving. The stats show this also.

 

What you don't understand is that if a country has millions of more drivers on the road , there will be more accidents happening. If you have 10 drivers on one road, and three are bad drivers, you will have some accidents happen. If you have 400 people on the same road and 120 are bad drivers, you will have many more accidents happen. Per capita is viable, and so is this.

 

Who's arguing about data? Data doesn't reduce accident numbers. Live action does, meaning having drivers prepared BEFORE they are given licenses and obeying the laws they were taught. Meaning actual enforcement of those laws, which is the police's job. having roads repaired asap, which is the government's job. No one disputed these things would reduce accidents. You thinking having all this data available will reduce accidents, leaving out the most important facet, the driver.

 

They have decent roads here, with some very bad, not unlike other countries that are developing. They have some enforcement but not near enough. Do you think things will change here? They might, but it will take a very long time because of the one thing you're missing about locals here. Attitude. Others have also pointed this out and you dismiss it. There are a lot more drivers here that are selfish, incompetent, arrogant, lazy and non caring than where we were born. This isn't something dismissed. The attitude towards life itself is very weak here, with a lack of care that I've never seen before.

 

You can't change that with changes in infrastructure , road improvement or better enforcement. You will reduce the amount of accidents if the roads are repaired faster, because people take risks on bad roads that leads to accidents. You can fine the hell out of drivers who break the law, and it will help more because you take money from a poor citizen's pocket, it might make them slow down, and it might not.

 

You can have a stronger test before they get licensed, but it won't change their attitudes towards life itself. If you go onto the road driving with a "who cares who's behind or to the side of me, I'm first anyway", you will have accidents. People get mowed down here every day because they don't use their mirrors, or they don't have any in the first place. If you think road rage doesn't exist here, think again. I see it almost every day, with people cutting others off on scooters and even scooters cutting off trucks, thinking they can somehow compete with them. Stats show they can't.

 

Again, I have not argued against research , data or science. I've agreed that it helps, but there is the one most important thing again. The mind of the driver, who is responsible for all accidents. You can have perfect straight highways, with a policeman enforcing every law immediately, and you will still have accidents, because some people don't give a <deleted>, period. And the amount here that doesn't far exceeds what we've seen in other countries. Nothing to do with being racist. We see these drivers every day. You've been watching this data every year for 20 years, and things have not improved. How long before your data improves things? It will reduce the amount of accidents if you ticket, fine and jail people breaking the law, because some learn when you take their money, especially if they're poor, but you can't change the attitudes.This is a total lack of care, and but one example. The driver wears a helmet, so HE doesn't get a ticket, but doesn't care about the welfare of his children. The police should ticket him for having too many on a scooter, and none wearing helmets.............

[cdemundo]

Drinking and driving is apparently a major cause  of Thai traffic accidents.

But I don't think this is generally perceived by the Thai public.

My impression is that the Thai perception of alcohol consumption is positive and doesn't differentiate between harmless moderate drinking and heavy drinking and alcohol dependence.

 

I remember in my youth in the US Midwest that alcohol-related fatal traffic accidents were often viewed with a "sad but waddya gonna do?" attitude.  At most the perception was that someone drank too much on the one occasion and no real perception that a pattern of drinking and driving inevitably led to crashes.

I think that perception has changed drastically and alcohol abuse is generally recognized as a problem now.

 

I am not exactly clear on how Thais view drinking but it doesn't seem like they see a problem.

This presents a major obstacle to any kind of change.

[kwilco]

6 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Drinking and driving is apparently a major cause  of Thai traffic accidents.

But I don't think this is generally perceived by the Thai public.

it's difficult to get an accurate figue as one has to define "alcohol" in a crash - it goes further than "drunk driver(s)"

[kwilco]

deleted

[connda]

On 2/1/2025 at 9:16 PM, kwilco said:

Confirmation Bias: People tend to focus on evidence that supports their existing beliefs about Thai drivers being reckless.

But they are in many ways - Ignorantly Reckless.  A lot of that could be addressed by education, but first you need to have instructors who understand "safe driving" from a Western perspective. I don't see any evidence that they exist here.  Even the driver's education videos by the government are just short of moronic. 

Example - Most Thais don't know how to merge, yield, or have any understanding of right-of-way:
* Don't understand the use of acceleration lanes and the majority of drivers will stop at an intersection or highway entrance from a parking lot and then cut across two or more lane to the far right high-speed lane and then drive at a snail's pace to make a U-Turn.
* Don't understand deceleration lanes as they will slow down on the highway to a crawl, and then cut right across the deceleration lane when they make their turn instead of using it to decelerate.
* Instead of pulling behind a car when lanes merge most will force their bumper right in the path of your vehicle and force their way in even if their is plenty of space behind you.
* Thais will turn from a left hand road and pull right into traffic without looking (especially motorcycles).
* Thais will turn onto the shoulder from a left hand road, drive at a snails place for 1/2 to 1 km, often with one set of wheels on the shoulder and one set of wheel on the road before simply pulling out in front of higher speed traffic with yielding.
Everything I wrote above would get you a ticket in the US.  It's taught and it's enforced.  Here in Thailand?  Nope.

I could go on but what's it worth.  In the West we learned driver's education in high school - a whole term of Drivers Ed., in-class, hands-on, lessons from the State Patrol, the works.  What's driver's education in Thailand?  The ignorant teaching the ignorant.  It's not "Confirmations Bias," it's opening your eyes to the reality that the vast majority of Thais never learned how to drive which in turn is directly attributable to the carnage on the roads.

[connda]

On 2/2/2025 at 4:58 AM, kwilco said:

"they" -???

 

 that's exactly the racist rubbish that impedes any progress in understanding road safety in Thailand

When you make a sweeping generalizations like “they are all reckless” or list complaints using "they", you need to define  Who ”they” is - Are you saying every single Thai driver does this?”
Do you think all Thai drivers fit this stereotype. - Road safety issues exist everywhere, and different factors contribute to them, like infrastructure, enforcement, and driving culture. But saying ‘all Thai drivers’ ignores responsible drivers and improvements being made.

“Driving habits vary across countries due to road conditions, enforcement, and training. Instead of blaming all Thai drivers, maybe we should look at the driving education system or road safety laws.”

When you see one bad driver in Thailand, do you assume all Thais drive that way? Would you say the same if you saw a reckless driver in your own country?” You seem unaware of the reality of statistics of driving a car in Thailand compared to other countries

 “If road safety is a concern, what do you think would help improve it? Playing the blame game clearly doesn’t.

What do you suggest – I expect you have a single issue tht you b;eive will provide the answer?

“Yes, road safety is a major public health issue in Thailand like in many other places. But generalizing all Thai drivers as reckless isn’t accurate or fair.

  

Racist?  Not at all. It's observable fact. "They" in Thailand aren't Spanish, or Africans, or South Americans, or Mongolians, or Arabs, or Eskimos.  "They" are the vast majority driving on the roads in Thailand  - Thais!

Seriously, you come across as an apologist for poor Thai driving as well as the archaic governmental/educational system which refuses to address the lack of solid driver's education with the funding and educational resources to actually affect positive change and lower the carnage to at least that of other developing countries. It can be done, there is just no will to do it.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, connda said:

Racist?  Not at all. It's observable fact. "They" in Thailand aren't Spanish, or Africans, or South Americans, or Mongolians, or Arabs, or Eskimos.  "They" are the vast majority driving on the roads in Thailand  - Thais!

Seriously, you come across as an apologist for poor Thai driving as well as the archaic governmental/educational system which refuses to address the lack of solid driver's education with the funding and educational resources to actually affect positive change and lower the carnage to at least that of other developing countries. It can be done, there is just no will to do it.

 

Your response is nothing more than thinly veiled racial stereotyping, dressed up as ‘observable fact.’ You are putting forward an argument that is using entirely racial terms

Blaming an entire nationality instead of looking at the actual causes—infrastructure, enforcement, education—is intellectually lazy and avoids any serious discussion.

Saying ‘they’ means Thais because ‘they’re the ones driving in Thailand’ is like saying all Americans are obese because they live in the U.S.—it’s a meaningless generalization or syllogism that ignores data, context, and reality.

You’re not ‘observing facts’—you’re cherry-picking anecdotes to reinforce your pre-existing bias.

The real difference between us? I’m talking about solutions based on scientific evidence. —you’re just ranting about ‘bad Thai drivers’ like it’s some inherent trait. It’s not. It’s a product of systemic issues—which you conveniently ignore because that would require actual critical thinking instead of lazy blame.

And calling me an ‘apologist’ is hilarious coming from someone who’s actively excusing government inaction by pretending this is just about ‘bad drivers.’ The reality? Your mindset is part of the problem. The rest of us are discussing actual solutions—you’re just screaming into the void."

 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

it's difficult to get an accurate figue as one has to define "alcohol" in a crash - it goes further than "drunk driver(s)"

Sorry missed a bit - Thailand's alcohol figure in crashes is about 33%, in UK it is 20% - in the US it is 32%

[kwilco]

11 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

If I, and others see it, it IS true. We aren't on mushrooms. A person that drives more then twice the amount of miles than the average driver sees a lot more incidents of driving habits. You seem to think it's racist to say that local drivers, meaning many, and no one said all, have a lot to learn about safe driving. The stats show this also.

 

What you don't understand is that if a country has millions of more drivers on the road , there will be more accidents happening. If you have 10 drivers on one road, and three are bad drivers, you will have some accidents happen. If you have 400 people on the same road and 120 are bad drivers, you will have many more accidents happen. Per capita is viable, and so is this.

 

Who's arguing about data? Data doesn't reduce accident numbers. Live action does, meaning having drivers prepared BEFORE they are given licenses and obeying the laws they were taught. Meaning actual enforcement of those laws, which is the police's job. having roads repaired asap, which is the government's job. No one disputed these things would reduce accidents. You thinking having all this data available will reduce accidents, leaving out the most important facet, the driver.

 

They have decent roads here, with some very bad, not unlike other countries that are developing. They have some enforcement but not near enough. Do you think things will change here? They might, but it will take a very long time because of the one thing you're missing about locals here. Attitude. Others have also pointed this out and you dismiss it. There are a lot more drivers here that are selfish, incompetent, arrogant, lazy and non caring than where we were born. This isn't something dismissed. The attitude towards life itself is very weak here, with a lack of care that I've never seen before.

 

You can't change that with changes in infrastructure , road improvement or better enforcement. You will reduce the amount of accidents if the roads are repaired faster, because people take risks on bad roads that leads to accidents. You can fine the hell out of drivers who break the law, and it will help more because you take money from a poor citizen's pocket, it might make them slow down, and it might not.

 

You can have a stronger test before they get licensed, but it won't change their attitudes towards life itself. If you go onto the road driving with a "who cares who's behind or to the side of me, I'm first anyway", you will have accidents. People get mowed down here every day because they don't use their mirrors, or they don't have any in the first place. If you think road rage doesn't exist here, think again. I see it almost every day, with people cutting others off on scooters and even scooters cutting off trucks, thinking they can somehow compete with them. Stats show they can't.

 

Again, I have not argued against research , data or science. I've agreed that it helps, but there is the one most important thing again. The mind of the driver, who is responsible for all accidents. You can have perfect straight highways, with a policeman enforcing every law immediately, and you will still have accidents, because some people don't give a <deleted>, period. And the amount here that doesn't far exceeds what we've seen in other countries. Nothing to do with being racist. We see these drivers every day. You've been watching this data every year for 20 years, and things have not improved. How long before your data improves things? It will reduce the amount of accidents if you ticket, fine and jail people breaking the law, because some learn when you take their money, especially if they're poor, but you can't change the attitudes.This is a total lack of care, and but one example. The driver wears a helmet, so HE doesn't get a ticket, but doesn't care about the welfare of his children. The police should ticket him for having too many on a scooter, and none wearing helmets.............

 

Your entire argument is just getting cyclic you keep returning to “they” and Thai drivers as if it is some racially stereotypical group.

Basically it’s just laziness wrapped in typical expat arrogance. You seem incapable of critical thinking. (I doubt you even know what it is).

‘I see it, so it must be true’ isn’t analysis—it’s confirmation bias. Just because you notice reckless driving more in Thailand doesn’t mean it’s worse because of some magical “local attitude” problem. That’s just ignorant nonsense.

Your math is laughable. More vehicles do not automatically mean more accidents—road design, law enforcement, and infrastructure determine accident rates. That’s why countries with far more cars have far fewer road deaths. But sure, keep pretending your personal observations trump decades of scientific research.

And this obsession with ‘bad drivers’? Completely useless. Every country has reckless drivers, but smart countries don’t rely on the fantasy of “fixing attitudes”—they build systems that prevent human error from turning into fatalities. That’s why they have lower accident rates, and why Thailand doesn't.

You suggest ‘data doesn’t reduce accidents’—which is just embarrassing. It is the key to truly understanding what is happening on Thai roads. Data drives policy, which actually works. Meanwhile, your approach—whining about ‘bad attitudes’ and playing the blame game—has changed exactly nothing.

Bottom line? You’re not proving a point—you’re just making and re-making excuses for why you don’t want to or can’t think critically about road safety. If you really cared, you'd focus on solutions, not just shouting ‘bad drivers’ from the side-lines like it means something.

 

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, connda said:

But they are in many ways - Ignorantly Reckless.  A lot of that could be addressed by education, but first you need to have instructors who understand "safe driving" from a Western perspective. I don't see any evidence that they exist here.  Even the driver's education videos by the government are just short of moronic. 

Example - Most Thais don't know how to merge, yield, or have any understanding of right-of-way:
* Don't understand the use of acceleration lanes and the majority of drivers will stop at an intersection or highway entrance from a parking lot and then cut across two or more lane to the far right high-speed lane and then drive at a snail's pace to make a U-Turn.
* Don't understand deceleration lanes as they will slow down on the highway to a crawl, and then cut right across the deceleration lane when they make their turn instead of using it to decelerate.
* Instead of pulling behind a car when lanes merge most will force their bumper right in the path of your vehicle and force their way in even if their is plenty of space behind you.
* Thais will turn from a left hand road and pull right into traffic without looking (especially motorcycles).
* Thais will turn onto the shoulder from a left hand road, drive at a snails place for 1/2 to 1 km, often with one set of wheels on the shoulder and one set of wheel on the road before simply pulling out in front of higher speed traffic with yielding.
Everything I wrote above would get you a ticket in the US.  It's taught and it's enforced.  Here in Thailand?  Nope.

I could go on but what's it worth.  In the West we learned driver's education in high school - a whole term of Drivers Ed., in-class, hands-on, lessons from the State Patrol, the works.  What's driver's education in Thailand?  The ignorant teaching the ignorant.  It's not "Confirmations Bias," it's opening your eyes to the reality that the vast majority of Thais never learned how to drive which in turn is directly attributable to the carnage on the roads.

basically you don't know how to drive in Thailand and it's no wonder because of your racially stereotyping  attitude.

[fredwiggy]

15 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

Your entire argument is just getting cyclic you keep returning to “they” and Thai drivers as if it is some racially stereotypical group.

Basically it’s just laziness wrapped in typical expat arrogance. You seem incapable of critical thinking. (I doubt you even know what it is).

‘I see it, so it must be true’ isn’t analysis—it’s confirmation bias. Just because you notice reckless driving more in Thailand doesn’t mean it’s worse because of some magical “local attitude” problem. That’s just ignorant nonsense.

Your math is laughable. More vehicles do not automatically mean more accidents—road design, law enforcement, and infrastructure determine accident rates. That’s why countries with far more cars have far fewer road deaths. But sure, keep pretending your personal observations trump decades of scientific research.

And this obsession with ‘bad drivers’? Completely useless. Every country has reckless drivers, but smart countries don’t rely on the fantasy of “fixing attitudes”—they build systems that prevent human error from turning into fatalities. That’s why they have lower accident rates, and why Thailand doesn't.

You suggest ‘data doesn’t reduce accidents’—which is just embarrassing. It is the key to truly understanding what is happening on Thai roads. Data drives policy, which actually works. Meanwhile, your approach—whining about ‘bad attitudes’ and playing the blame game—has changed exactly nothing.

Bottom line? You’re not proving a point—you’re just making and re-making excuses for why you don’t want to or can’t think critically about road safety. If you really cared, you'd focus on solutions, not just shouting ‘bad drivers’ from the side-lines like it means something.

 

If you actually read and comprehended what I've been saying, it has nothing to do with race. It's observation by myself and many others here, who all seem to understand all about what makes accidents, how they can be prevented, and most importantly, who has primary responsibility in an accident, which seems to avoid your understanding. Others have also said the same things I have, yet you also dismiss them, thinking you're some kind of expert and know more than we do. You don't.

 

Assuming I don't understand what critical thinking is another downfall of yours. I know a lot more than you ever will on what constitutes accidents and why they happen. I've studied psychology for the last 35 plus years, which means I also understand people like you, who assume they know others by just a few posts in an online forum.

 

You have been wrong in every reply to me, yet you still go one, much like a few others here who also think they're smarter. You're not. YOU ARE NOT COMPREHENDING WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. I come to this conclusion because you constantly make errors assuming what I'm saying and miss where I'm saying the same things you are. I proved my point many replies ago, but you're still coming back saying the same exact things.

 

Thailand has a higher accident rate because the police do not enforce the rules already there, as I've said many times. Roads here aren't great, but they're still better than some other countries where there are less accidents.

 

I have no "obsession" with bad drivers. I have seen them for the last 51 years of driving, both here and in other countries and almost all states in the US. What I do see is more ignorance of the laws here, as well as more recklessness in driving, more people cutting others off, more people ignoring the laws they know about (helmet wearing), more people weaving in and out of traffic on motorbikes,, more, much more, trucks overloaded both high and wide, more people driving into oncoming traffic instead of going around someone in front of them in the next lane, more people driving too close to the car in front of them, these along with other things connda mentioned in a few replies before.

 

You are making excuses for local drivers and putting it more on the other factors that constitute what makes accidents happen. It's first, the driver's responsibility, to follow the laws they should have learned about during the test and by watching others older

than them driving when they were growing up.

 

Now read these lines a few times and try to see what I'm saying.............Many things make accidents happen, from driver inability or ignorance, to driving after drinking or using drugs, to speeding, following too close to other drivers, weaving in and out of traffic, and not using defensive driving skills, along with arrogance, incompetence and ignorance. Bad roads contribute to accidents because the DRIVER isn't using good sense while driving, either speeding or taking turns too wide or hitting potholes they would have missed if going slower. Bad enforcement of the laws has drivers getting away with BAD driving and if they were ticketed, they MIGHT think twice before committing the same infraction again, but probably not because of ARROGANCE towards laws and disrespect to others on the roads.

 

Don't bother coming back if you think you're going to show me up and think you're smarter by repeating the same ignorant statements about my not knowing what really makes accidents happen. You aren't and I don't even know you, but I know your type, and ignorance is one of their greatest flaws. You are also ignoring others or answering them the same way, thinking you're the expert here and others don't already know what you know. We knew it in high school.

[fredwiggy]

40 minutes ago, kwilco said:

basically you don't know how to drive in Thailand and it's no wonder because of your racially stereotyping  attitude.

You assume he doesn't know how to drive in Thailand. he might be driving here for years without an accident, like many other foreigners here. Again, and read this slowly, we aren't saying ALL locals are bad drivers. We are saying many are, which is true, and NOTHING to do with race. We just happen to be in a country where many people drive ignoring the laws and common sense driving, and where we come from the police are hard core against offenses we see here daily. I'm nowhere near the only person who has observed this, as you can see from other's replies, and you keep telling them also the same crapola. Again I ask, are you Thai?

[kwilco]

27 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

but I know your type

Unfortunately that sums up your powers of thought all too succinctly

 

 

[fredwiggy]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

Unfortunately that sums up your powers of thought all too succinctly

 

 

I'm thinking you don't understand that a person who assumes they know about other people is showing the intelligence of a teenager . It follows along the lines of this. The Dunning-Kruger effect occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skill in a certain area causes them to overestimate their own competence. You actually think you're smarter than others because they don't agree with your shortcomings.

[Lorry]

From the abstract of the article OP linked on Wednesday:

 

"The public blame drivers rather than the state"

 

BTW a good introduction into the subject is the NYT article from 2019

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/thailand-inequality-road-fatalities.html

 

Not as long and not scientific,  but easy to read. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

23 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

You assume he doesn't know how to drive in Thailand. he might be driving here for years without an accident, like many other foreigners here. Again, and read this slowly, we aren't saying ALL locals are bad drivers. We are saying many are, which is true, and NOTHING to do with race. We just happen to be in a country where many people drive ignoring the laws and common sense driving, and where we come from the police are hard core against offenses we see here daily. I'm nowhere near the only person who has observed this, as you can see from other's replies, and you keep telling them also the same crapola. Again I ask, are you Thai?

 

Repeating the same nonsense doesn’t make it any more correct…..

 

“You assume he doesn't know how to drive in Thailand. he might be driving here for years without an accident, like many other foreigners here.”.

 

 That’s a complete non-sequitur. Whether someone has personally avoided an accident has zero relevance to their understanding of road safety at a national level. Just one driver's experience doesn’t override actual data on road safety either accident enforcement or infrastructure.

Using your logic, as I said earlier anyone who's been to school isn't an expert on education, anyone who’s never had a house fire isn't an expert on fire safety, or someone who’s never been mugged doesn't live in a crime-free country. See the flaw yet?

Personal anecdotes aren’t a substitute for system-wide analysis. If you want to argue about road safety, stick to facts, not your own lucky driving record."*

 

As for the rest…..

"Ah yes, the classic ‘read this slowly’ approach—because condescension is such a great substitute for a logical argument Your reasoning is risibly flimsy….You say "Many locals are bad drivers." – so can you define "many." - 10%? 50%? 90%? You have zero actual data, just a bunch of anecdotal whinging. If your argument is just gut feelings and cognitive biases instead of statistics, it’s not an argument at all.

 

Again you claim - “Nothing to do with race” - . They say there is “stupid, stupider and then racist” 

But by saying, ‘It’s the locals.’ you’re ignoring the science, ‘Poor driving conditions exist due to infrastructure, lax enforcement, or education.’ If you used the same logic and applied it to other nationalities, you’d see the problem—but because it fits your narrative, you pretend it’s  ‘facts.’

 

“Where we come from, the police are hardcore.” And again you’ve missed the point, it’s systems, not people that shape behaviour. If Thailand had the same enforcement, education, and infrastructure as your home country, the driving habits would be different. Instead of recognising that, you just blame "locals" like bad driving is coded into their DNA.

 

“Are you Thai?” – What?? -  this is where you fully expose yourself. What exactly are you implying? That only foreigners can have valid opinions on road safety in Thailand? That my argument is only valid if I’m not Thai? If that’s not racially loaded nonsense, I don’t know what is.

 

At the end of the day, the difference between us is simple: I’m discussing causes and solutions—you’re just ranting about ‘bad locals’ which that means nothing. If you actually cared about road safety instead of playing the ‘wise foreign observer,’ you’d focus on the systemic reasons behind these issues, not lazy stereotypes

[fredwiggy]

29 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

Repeating the same nonsense doesn’t make it any more correct…..

 

“You assume he doesn't know how to drive in Thailand. he might be driving here for years without an accident, like many other foreigners here.”.

 

 That’s a complete non-sequitur. Whether someone has personally avoided an accident has zero relevance to their understanding of road safety at a national level. Just one driver's experience doesn’t override actual data on road safety either accident enforcement or infrastructure.

Using your logic, as I said earlier anyone who's been to school isn't an expert on education, anyone who’s never had a house fire isn't an expert on fire safety, or someone who’s never been mugged doesn't live in a crime-free country. See the flaw yet?

Personal anecdotes aren’t a substitute for system-wide analysis. If you want to argue about road safety, stick to facts, not your own lucky driving record."*

 

As for the rest…..

"Ah yes, the classic ‘read this slowly’ approach—because condescension is such a great substitute for a logical argument Your reasoning is risibly flimsy….You say "Many locals are bad drivers." – so can you define "many." - 10%? 50%? 90%? You have zero actual data, just a bunch of anecdotal whinging. If your argument is just gut feelings and cognitive biases instead of statistics, it’s not an argument at all.

 

Again you claim - “Nothing to do with race” - . They say there is “stupid, stupider and then racist” 

But by saying, ‘It’s the locals.’ you’re ignoring the science, ‘Poor driving conditions exist due to infrastructure, lax enforcement, or education.’ If you used the same logic and applied it to other nationalities, you’d see the problem—but because it fits your narrative, you pretend it’s  ‘facts.’

 

“Where we come from, the police are hardcore.” And again you’ve missed the point, it’s systems, not people that shape behaviour. If Thailand had the same enforcement, education, and infrastructure as your home country, the driving habits would be different. Instead of recognising that, you just blame "locals" like bad driving is coded into their DNA.

 

“Are you Thai?” – What?? -  this is where you fully expose yourself. What exactly are you implying? That only foreigners can have valid opinions on road safety in Thailand? That my argument is only valid if I’m not Thai? If that’s not racially loaded nonsense, I don’t know what is.

 

At the end of the day, the difference between us is simple: I’m discussing causes and solutions—you’re just ranting about ‘bad locals’ which that means nothing. If you actually cared about road safety instead of playing the ‘wise foreign observer,’ you’d focus on the systemic reasons behind these issues, not lazy stereotypes

You keep assuming what others do or don't know, and that's your fail. All the data I, or anyone needs, is the stats yearly on accidents and deaths here, and again what you're still missing. It's on the drivers themselves to understand the laws as they receive their driver licenses. They do know the laws and the one example I gave was seeing a parent driving a scooter while there are 4 others on the scooter without helmets, two offenses.

 

Driving recklessly on any roads in any weather conditions is something anyone older than a teenager should know to avoid, or they shouldn't have a license in the first place.

 

I actually do care about road safety. I'm a good driver, who's a safe driver, and I taught my children the same, along with my ex wife and now girlfriend.

 

What I implied asking if you're Thai is that you seem to be sticking up for the drivers here, saying it's more the fault of bad roads, lack of enforcement, bad infrastructure etc, instead of the drivers themselves, so I asked if you were Thai, as a local would be more likely to stick up for them than another. I don't miss anything. You are. I, and probably everyone else here, as seen by their comments, do understand what makes accidents happen, and how they can be avoided. There is  an attitude here, and it doesn't just encompass driving, and It seems you don't understand ,much about it, although you claim to be here over 20 years.

 

The difference between us is that you're a close minded individual, that looks at data instead of the whole picture, and are still missing the main point. Drivers are the ones responsible for the safety of themselves and others around them. When I say many drivers here are bad, it means a large percentage, and that can be seen daily on the roads, and if you see it for over 6 years, it adds up to quite a few. Add to this many others observations and comments matching mine, and that ups the percentage higher. It doesn't matter what percentage it actually is. What matters is it's a lot more than any other places I and many others have seen driving over 50 years. I also, along with everyone else who's commented. have discussed solutions, and it's been seen on this forum ever since I joined. You keep missing that point also. Give it a rest. You aren't saying anything we already didn't know.