Demonstrations continue in Bangkok

[hammered]

TRT still claim to represent 14 million. If these all turn out and vote the way TRT thinks they will the charter goes down without an immense turnout. Remember that TRT have always argued that vote buying and intimdation and withholding information never affected the public opinion at an election when they won. They are kind of hamstrung if they lose this one. Academics have also argued that vote buying and intimidation and influence did not not unduly affect elections. You cant argue the use of state power affects some elections but not others. You either have to accept the controllers of the state affect all or none, but many have used the very logic to defend the Thaksin government that they now try to use to assail the military one. That is a totally false logic and very niaive.

To get back to the main point TRT should easily get the no vote carried if they are as popular as they say and if what they argue about elections is true.

Personally I have my own opinions on Thai elections having seen many and at village level. Here I just point out the obvious problems with arguements used by the TRT and its supporters rather selectively and the obvious conclusion if the claim of 14 million is correct. Of course the violence towards opponents and the keeping of opponents from canvassing in vast tracts of the country before April 2006 vote had no effect on the outcome as argued by TRT etc.

I have also personally heard of vote buying and seen one hand out and heard of influence peddling, but it would be very niaive to not believe it is happening if you have ever seen Thai elections unless one going to come out with the very unacademic and incredibly niaive arguement that was recently presented on New Mandela claiming all vote buying wasa bogeyman falsity!

[John K]

So will they go home now????

I wonder how the 9 that got sent to jail are feeling right about now.

[sriracha john]

Don't know about the 9 jail soap-dodgers, but the anti-constitution groups have said they will stop now that the constituion has been affirmed. Guess those 4,000 hangers-on at the last TRT rally didn't amount to much afterall.

[ColPyat]

Don't know about the 9 jail soap-dodgers, but the anti-constitution groups have said they will stop now that the constituion has been affirmed. Guess those 4,000 hangers-on at the last TRT rally didn't amount to much afterall.

Really?

Read this:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30045774

September 19 Network declares 'victory'

The September 19 Network Against Coup said those against the military junta scored "a victory" on Sunday because as many as 10 million or 41 per cent of voters rejected the junta-sponsored draft charter despite heavy state propaganda over recent months.

They said the result by no way legitimised the junta and the coup staged last September. The group also vowed to continue opposing the attempt by the junta-appointed regime to pass the controversial Internal Security law, oppose huge increases in the military budget and also launch a campaign for an eventual drafting of a new constitution.

"Judging from the figure of 10 million, this seems like a victory," said Thanaphol Eiwsakul, a coordinator of the group which ran a fierce campaign against the draft charter.

The Nation

[sriracha john]

Did the referendum get approved? Yes

Was it a comfortable margin? Yes

Will the losers put any spin they want on it? Yes

Will their spin matter? No

[Mid]

Was it a comfortable margin? Yes

not usually one for rose coloured glasses SJ .

[John K]

Don't know about the 9 jail soap-dodgers, but the anti-constitution groups have said they will stop now that the constituion has been affirmed. Guess those 4,000 hangers-on at the last TRT rally didn't amount to much afterall.

Really?

Read this:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30045774

September 19 Network declares 'victory'

The September 19 Network Against Coup said those against the military junta scored "a victory" on Sunday because as many as 10 million or 41 per cent of voters rejected the junta-sponsored draft charter despite heavy state propaganda over recent months.

They said the result by no way legitimised the junta and the coup staged last September. The group also vowed to continue opposing the attempt by the junta-appointed regime to pass the controversial Internal Security law, oppose huge increases in the military budget and also launch a campaign for an eventual drafting of a new constitution.

"Judging from the figure of 10 million, this seems like a victory," said Thanaphol Eiwsakul, a coordinator of the group which ran a fierce campaign against the draft charter.

The Nation

Sounds like a face saving comment nothing more. Except that.....

wasn’t running a campaign against the charter a violation of the law? I thought they were just encouraging people to go out and vote their mind after correctly informing people about things they may not understand. Perhaps someone just put their foot in their mouth.

[Mid]

wasn’t running a campaign against the charter a violation of the law?

NO , and there is the crux of the matter ,

twas illegal to promote not voting ,

promoting a No vote was legal though heavily hindered .............................................

[hammered]

Don't know about the 9 jail soap-dodgers, but the anti-constitution groups have said they will stop now that the constituion has been affirmed. Guess those 4,000 hangers-on at the last TRT rally didn't amount to much afterall.

Really?

Read this:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30045774

September 19 Network declares 'victory'

The September 19 Network Against Coup said those against the military junta scored "a victory" on Sunday because as many as 10 million or 41 per cent of voters rejected the junta-sponsored draft charter despite heavy state propaganda over recent months.

They said the result by no way legitimised the junta and the coup staged last September. The group also vowed to continue opposing the attempt by the junta-appointed regime to pass the controversial Internal Security law, oppose huge increases in the military budget and also launch a campaign for an eventual drafting of a new constitution.

"Judging from the figure of 10 million, this seems like a victory," said Thanaphol Eiwsakul, a coordinator of the group which ran a fierce campaign against the draft charter.

The Nation

From what I understand it was the PTV group (the biggest?) that called an end to its activities, but the UDD was made up of I think around 40 groups. No doubt some will stop rallying and some will continue. I would also think that what happens in th run up to the election could increase or decrease numbers. Right now a lot of the politicos are playing the lets work together and move on for the sake of the country card. That would indicate to me that the main politicos dont see demonstrating as a tactic right now. That could change. However, academic groups that are not linked to political parties may well decide to continue. imho

Edited August 20, 2007 by hammered

[sriracha john]

Was it a comfortable margin? Yes

not usually one for rose coloured glasses SJ .

That's the nomenclature used on the current thread.... anyway, with the protest groups saying they won't demonstate any more, this thread can be go by the wayside.... Stick a fork in it, it's done.

Anti-charter groups gamely accept defeat

After it became clear early on in yesterday's count that the draft constitution was likely to pass the referendum, anti-charter groups including the People's Power party (PPP), the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), and the Saturday People Against Dictatorship announced that they would call an end to their anti-charter activities

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/20Aug2007_news01.php

[ColPyat]

Did the referendum get approved? Yes

Was it a comfortable margin? Yes

Will the losers put any spin they want on it? Yes

Will their spin matter? No

Spin? Every election result has to be interpreted.

And it is rather clear that this election result is far too close to be comfortable for the backers of he charter and the military.

If you look at the numbers, there is a very high chance that TRT (in its Parang Prachachon incarnation) might make a comeback at the next elections, and might form the next government.

Looking at the numbers and the regions of the highest "No" vote result - this was rather much not just a anti coup and anti constitution result, but also a pro TRT result.

And further, many of the "yes" votes were not a vote of confidence for the charter, the military, or the government, but simply a wish to have elections as fast as possible. Much of the government propaganda for the constitution played that point very strongly in radio shows and on TV.

Read statements of some of the important people now: Chaturon (one of the better politicians of TRT) accepts the result, but still disagrees strongly with the process. Abhisit stresses the point that several articles have to be amended, and Gen. Sonthi has sidestepped the question of a new coup, saying that as long as the next elected government rules with "morals" and "patriotism" there should be no coup. This is clearly a hidden threat.

One thing that is clear - every party that wants a chance to get votes has to start formulating policies that the majority of the poor can benefit from. No more accusations of the poor only selling their votes.

So, any rabid TRT opponent should be very scared now about the future. And yes, for me the possible return of TRT, especially under Samak or Chavalit is not the most comfortable thought. But, the next few months may be the last chance for the other parties to come with, and communicate policies that may go against the wishes of the elites, but that will benefit Thailand in the long term. Because if they don't - TRT is back faster than you can imagine.

The result now is a very strong indicator that the Thailand of the elitist politics is over soon. But i fear not without some severe disturbances.

[sriracha john]

which is all good for the thread on the referendum.... this one being about demonstrations, as per the prior entry, is over.

[Siripon]

Did the referendum get approved? Yes

Was it a comfortable margin? Yes

Will the losers put any spin they want on it? Yes

Will their spin matter? No

Spin? Every election result has to be interpreted.

And it is rather clear that this election result is far too close to be comfortable for the backers of he charter and the military.

If you look at the numbers, there is a very high chance that TRT (in its Parang Prachachon incarnation) might make a comeback at the next elections, and might form the next government.

Looking at the numbers and the regions of the highest "No" vote result - this was rather much not just a anti coup and anti constitution result, but also a pro TRT result.

And further, many of the "yes" votes were not a vote of confidence for the charter, the military, or the government, but simply a wish to have elections as fast as possible. Much of the government propaganda for the constitution played that point very strongly in radio shows and on TV.

Read statements of some of the important people now: Chaturon (one of the better politicians of TRT) accepts the result, but still disagrees strongly with the process. Abhisit stresses the point that several articles have to be amended, and Gen. Sonthi has sidestepped the question of a new coup, saying that as long as the next elected government rules with "morals" and "patriotism" there should be no coup. This is clearly a hidden threat.

One thing that is clear - every party that wants a chance to get votes has to start formulating policies that the majority of the poor can benefit from. No more accusations of the poor only selling their votes.

So, any rabid TRT opponent should be very scared now about the future. And yes, for me the possible return of TRT, especially under Samak or Chavalit is not the most comfortable thought. But, the next few months may be the last chance for the other parties to come with, and communicate policies that may go against the wishes of the elites, but that will benefit Thailand in the long term. Because if they don't - TRT is back faster than you can imagine.

The result now is a very strong indicator that the Thailand of the elitist politics is over soon. But i fear not without some severe disturbances.

Colonel, please stop fearing, it's not good for yourself or your young family.

Everything has gone along fine, a bloodless coup, except for one sadly deranged taxi driver, Thaksin happy in England with Man City on top of the league and a new constitution in place that attempts to block the loopholes exploited by Thaksin where every check and balance was bought, media critics silenced and banned from the airways.

And that's why Thaksin is hated by many.

Not because he's a leader of the rural majority, Banharn,Chavalit, Chuan are all from upcountry.

Not because of his policies- though many were obvious gimmicks which only plunged people further into debt.

He was\is hated because of his desire for absolute power, no opposition allowed, either within his party or or on TV.

His divisive policies-' those who vote for TRT get the money first'.

His shameless exploitation of the premiership for personal gain-Exim bank loan, trip to Mexico,etc.

Please tell me the name of one thinker, socialist, still with him.

It would be nice to have seen the anti coup groups with stickers promoting the grass roots, like the present minister Mr Paiboon has been doing but instead we saw lines like,'Love Thaksin'.

I don't mind if the 'rabid', to use your word, right winger Samak comes back as PM with Thaksin's employees, but what will be fun will be seeing them subject to checks and balances in the Senate, Parliament and on TV.

[John K]

Based on that Siripon, one can only imagine what the first proposed amendments to the new constitution would be by that group. Straight off to the dentist who likes pliers I would think.

[ColPyat]

Colonel, please stop fearing, it's not good for yourself or your young family.

Love - my family is not that young anymore. Only the squirt is just out of his pampers.

We differ very much in what we consider as "checks and balances". In the new constitution the system of checks and balances is lopsided to military, judges and bureaucracy, which is even more potentially dangerous than politicians as they are not even elected, and by experience as corrupt. There has to be a balance, and that has not been reached. If those sectors would be as clean as promoted - Thaksin would not have made premiership in the first place, the drug war killings would not have happened, etc.

And you have a very sizable opposition to the constitution.

No constitution is worth its paper as long as there the informal power networks here in Thailand are so strong, and reach up into the highest echelons of society, are practically outside of legal and constitutional control, above scrutiny.

Read Gen. Sonthi's reply to the question of possible future military coups - he said as long as the country is governed along "ethical and patriotic" principles. Which basically means, we are still under thread of a gun barrel.

I don't know how much dealing you have had with upper rank military officers here. I have had a few, and some generals here have some rather strange opinions on democracy and its meaning (and no - i did not attempt in depth discussions there ).

Now we seem to have a long overdue break from the daily demonstrations (it's been nearly two years! But i am gonna miss them a bit - it was a great learning period for me, in which i have been able to meet and converse with many people i would have in ordinary times had no hope of meeting on a regular base) - but i have little doubt that the next crisis will come soon, and more of the fun. No - no doubt whatsoever.

By the way, the Taxi driver - i do not agree with his suicide, but he was not deranged at all. Not that many people know this, but apart from his letter he also left a tape that he recorded just before he went out to hang himself. And that was not the ramblings of a deranged man - it was a calm, logical reasoning of his motivations. Unfortunately not many people had the privilege to hear it.

[Jai Dee]

Metropol confident DAAD leaders can be prosecuted by the end of August

The Metropolitan Police Commissioner is confident that legal proceedings against Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) leaders can be submitted to the Criminal Court within the end of the month.

Pol.Lt.Gen. Adisorn Nonsri (อดิศร รรทรีย์ ) reports that the Metropolitan Police Bureau will be ready to submit legal documents to prosecute Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) leaders to the Criminal Court by the end of the month. Investigative officers are currently obtaining witnesses and evidence. Meanwhile Criminal Court officials will be determining whether to revoke bail posted by 1st generation DAAD leaders, who defied court orders by attending a political demonstration after their release.

Police officers have also filed requests to detain 3rd generation Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) leaders for an extended period for 7 days from August 19-25.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 21 August 2007

[Jai Dee]

Deadline for DAAD key leaders

The Crime Suppression Division (CSD) has set August 27th as the deadline for three key leaders of the rally at Sanam Luang (สนามหลวง) to hear their accusation; otherwise, they will be arrested.

CSD Deputy Commander Pol Col Wisanu Muangpraesri (วิษณุ ม่วงแพรศรี) reports the progress in calling the three key leaders of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD), including Mr. Jakkraphob Penkae (จักรภพ เพ็ญแข), Mr. Jatuporn Prompan (จตุพร พรหมพันธุ์), and Mr. Nattawut Saikeu (ณัฐวุฒิ ไสยเกื้อ) to attend the interrogation in the case that they referred the name of Privy Councilor and Statesman Gen Prem Tinsulanont (เปรม ติณสูลานนท์) during the rally. The authorities asked for the interrogation on August 17th; however, there was no sign of the three key leaders.

The three DAAD key leaders sent a representative to ask for postponing the interrogation. Meanwhile, they have been summoned to attend the interrogation again on August 27th. If they still refuse to come, the authorities will ask for an arrest warrant against them.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 21 August 2007

[John K]

Do you see a cycle here....

Get in trouble

delay seeing the authorities

get arrested

get some mysterious illness

promise to be good

get out on bail

Get in trouble

delay seeing the authorities

get arrested

get some mysterious illness

promise to be good

get out on bail

Get in trouble

delay seeing the authorities

get arrested

get some mysterious illness

promise to be good

get out on bail

Get in trouble

delay seeing the authorities

get arrested

get some mysterious illness

promise to be good

get out on bail.....

[ColPyat]

which is all good for the thread on the referendum.... this one being about demonstrations, as per the prior entry, is over.

By the way, FYI, the demonstrations do continue. Yesterday the Saturday Voice was at Sanam Luang, i don't know though how many people attended. My guess is not many.

Other groups are also planning further activities.

[sriracha john]

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, does it make a sound?

If a demonstration happens and nobody pays attention, is it a demonstration?

[John K]

That is a interesting bit of news. I figured there would be some that did not know when it was time to go home.

[ColPyat]

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, does it make a sound?

Yes.

If a demonstration happens and nobody pays attention, is it a demonstration?

Well, i wasn't around. I guess though that other's were. Sanam Luang is not exactly an unknown location in an unpopulated area. But basically, Saturday Voice on its own never had too many supporters previously, at most several hundred people. But, the other groups are still existing, and are still networking.

[Plus]

So have they decided what to do about this "illegal" constitution? Form alternative government? Start civil disobedience movement? Go underground?

[ColPyat]

So have they decided what to do about this "illegal" constitution? Form alternative government? Start civil disobedience movement? Go underground?

No need to turn paranoid and raise McCarthy from the dead - they are simply campaigning for democracy.

[sriracha john]

Action against rioters

Police will present public prosecutors with an investigation report today about 15 people involved in the violent protest outside Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanonda's residence in late July, Metropolitan Police deputy chief Maj-General Jetn Mongkolhathi said yesterday.

The 15 men would be charged with causing public unrest and resisting arrest - offences punishable by up to five years in jail, he said.

The officer said investigators had collected enough evidence to implicate the suspects and would ask prosecutors to take the cases to court.

- The Nation

Edited August 28, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Police to Prosecute PTV Leaders

The Metropolitan Police Division agreed to prosecute 15 PTV leaders for provoking anti-coup protesters to clash with security officials and triggering disorder in the country during their rally outside the residence of the Privy Council President.

Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief, Police Major General Juti Thammanowanit reveals that Metropolitan Police Chief, Police Lieutenant General Adisorn Nontsri, has agreed to prosecute 15 PTV leaders for provoking anti-coup protesters to clash with state security officials outside the residence of the Privy Council President, General Prem Tinsulanonda, and assembling more than 10 people to trigger disorder in the country.

The accused are divided into two groups. The first group is charged with both allegations. Ten individuals are accused.

Meanwhile, a remaining five are being indicted for a single charge of triggering disorder in the country.

Police Major General Juti states that the investigation results have already been forwarded to the Acting National Chief, Police General Seripisut Temiyavej.

He also reveals that the investigation team is collecting more evidence to take legal action against other PTV members who may be involved in the disturbance around General Prem's residence.

- Thailand Outlook

[Plus]

So have they decided what to do about this "illegal" constitution? Form alternative government? Start civil disobedience movement? Go underground?

No need to turn paranoid and raise McCarthy from the dead - they are simply campaigning for democracy.

So what have they decided to do? Do they recongnise the constitution or not?

[ColPyat]

So have they decided what to do about this "illegal" constitution? Form alternative government? Start civil disobedience movement? Go underground?

No need to turn paranoid and raise McCarthy from the dead - they are simply campaigning for democracy.

So what have they decided to do? Do they recongnise the constitution or not?

I guess they have no other choice than recognizing the constitution. But i guess they still oppose it, and will try to lobby for amendments. They also demonstrate against many others issues, such as against the continued upholding of martial law in 35 provinces, and in general - against the army influence in politics.

[sriracha john]

Did they demonstrate during the 33 months of martial law declared by Thaksin?

[ColPyat]

Did they demonstrate during the 33 months of martial law declared by Thaksin?

Martial law declared by Thaksin?

Do you mean the 3 southern provinces?

There martial law is IMO absolutely justified as it is an active war zone, in which the red zones are only under nominal control of the government.

I don't see any reason to uphold martial law in any of the provinces outside of the 3 southern provinces. There is no armed resistance, and opposition to the army is within the frame work of a democracy.