Pension Tax Filing Report - Rejected

[patrickl]

I am helping someone file taxes for their Swiss pension. Most of the funds (90-95%) are transferred every month from Switzerland to Thailand via wire transfer. It doesn't come from savings but straight from the pension (pension -> bank account in Switzerland -> bank account in Thailand). We went to the tax office in one of the major cities today and the officer said there's no need to file for taxes as pensions from outside of Thailand, only if there is income from a job or earnings from rentals, etc. and that pensions are not taxed plus there is a double tax agreement with Thailand and Switzerland. We informed them that no taxes are paid in Switzerland because the person lives here all year and the officer said still there's no need to pay taxes, as the amount of tax would be in her own words "very small" (around 30,000 Baht, after deduction of allowances) and the medical bills and other things that could be deducted are likely higher (the officer didn't even want to see those and we didn't mention any or bring any). I hope they will not come knocking at the door one day but they basically refused to even allow filing taxes or get a tax number.

[offset]

The problems are the individual is still responsible for filing tax 

If the tax officer is wrong (which most do not understand about DTAs) it will still come back on the individual 

 

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, offset said:

The problems are the individual is still responsible for filing tax 

If the tax officer is wrong (which most do not understand about DTAs) it will still come back on the individual 

 

So you're more informed than the Thai Tax official?

 

You simply can't wrap your head around all this talk of taxes is bs

[ukrules]

Just now, EVENKEEL said:

So you're more informed than the Thai Tax official?

 

You simply can't wrap your head around all this talk of taxes is bs

Think of it as being similar to immigration making a mistake on your entry stamp.

It's your responsibility - not theirs. Same thing.

[motdaeng]

54 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

If you're not working or running a business in Thailand, you don't need to deal with the TRD.

 

says who? do you have that in writing from the TRD? no, of course not!

 

what we do have is an official document from the TRD that clearly explains who is required to file a tax return. that is a fact. everything else is simply not a fact!

 

[federicoP]

Since the Swiss pension, unless it is a state pension, is taxable in Thailand, I would strongly suggest you do the calculations and check if your friend has to pay anything.

This is to avoid possible future problems, an official who says that the tax would be "very small" and that "other things that could be deducted are likely higher",  only shows his superficiality and incompetence

[Yumthai]

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

Think of it as being similar to immigration making a mistake on your entry stamp.

It's your responsibility - not theirs. Same thing.

You can't compare a process that is clearly understandable, straightforward and everyone has to pass through with another process where rules are blur and inconsistent (even more for the authority) with no systematic control.

 

[EVENKEEL]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

Think of it as being similar to immigration making a mistake on your entry stamp.

It's your responsibility - not theirs. Same thing.

Hey, you do you. Time after time expats are being told not to file. Comparing taxes to immigration requirements is not same same.

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

says who? do you have that in writing from the TRD? no, of course not!

 

what we do have is an official document from the TRD that clearly explains who is required to file a tax return. that is a fact. everything else is simply not a fact!

 

 

Ah, the single infographic TRD released more than a year ago, OK, sure, an official source, I cannot argue with that.

 

But I am talking about the real world.  

 

What I can say, is that we must have had 20+ reports on this forum all showing the TRD isn't interested in dealing with foreigners proactively trying to comply with their interpretation of the "facts / rules " by voluntarily trying to pay tax on their remittances. 

What I have not seen, is a SINGLE report of anyone actually *successfully* paying any significant amount of tax on a foreign remittance. The first case that's published of anyone paying tax on their funds transferred to buy a house or condo, will be very newsworthy.

 

There must have been thousands of foreigners who did exactly this, using 'technically assessable' income, sometime in 2024. 

Yet, we haven't heard of a single case on here. Ask yourself, why not? No way all those funds transferred in were non-assessable, absolutely there will be big amounts that are  will be technically assessable. Did no one buy a home / condo / even a car last year? Where's the reports of someone trying to declare the gain on the sale of property ( or other investments)  sold overseas, remitted to buy property in Thailand? 

 

Tax filing season is almost finished, and guess what, I bet 95%+ of foreigners not working in Thailand won't file a return, just like last year, and the 10 years before that.  

[TheAppletons]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

says who? do you have that in writing from the TRD? no, of course not!

 

what we do have is an official document from the TRD that clearly explains who is required to file a tax return. that is a fact. everything else is simply not a fact!

 

 

  Please illustrate where your "official TRD document" addresses non-assessable income or DTAs.

 

  (Hint:  it doesn't.)

[Sophon]

Two weeks ago I went to the local Revenue Department office here in Lamphun where I live. I showed the clerk/officer the document from the Revenue Department head office (pasted above in motdaeng's post), and explained to her that I wanted to file a tax return including my foreign pension. Unsurprisingly she had no idea how to do that, as they had received no guidance from Bangkok on the matter. Consequently, I was handed off to her boss who also knew nothing about this, but could see from the official document that I was in fact expected to file a tax return for my foreign pension.

 

Over the next hour or so, I explained my circumstances (through translation by my wife) to the boss-lady, we looked at all my documentation and together managed to file my tax return electronically.  Everything was conducted in a very cordial and service minded fashion. I have just checked my tax return online, and it has been accepted and finalized by whoever does the post-file processing.

 

The problem people have had when trying to file their tax return, is that the provincial offices have received no guidance from Bangkok, and culturally when Thai people don't know how to handle a situation, they often revert to the "no need" response, even when that is not true.

 

Some people here ask, why on earth anyone would voluntarily go to the Revenue Department and file a tax return. Everyone's situation is different, but personally I have several reasons for filing:

 

Firstly, living in a foreign country where I have no absolute right to live, I try to do things by the book, which includes filing a tax return when i am obligated to do so. I don't want any risk of being accused of tax evasion (however small that risk might be) and jeopardize my future here. Especially since I don't actually have to pay any tax on my pension. The tax I pay at source is far more than any tax Thailand would potentially be entitled to, and I would get a credit for the tax paid at source.

 

Secondly, I am entitled to claim back the 15% withholding tax on my bank interest. It is not a fortune, but I still want it back. It's a nice little bonus to get the annual check from the Revenue Department.

 

Thirdly, avoiding having to file a tax return in Thailand by not transferring your foreign income, or simply ignoring the obligation to file for income you have transferred, could be counterproductive. The new tax rules say that any assessable foreign income earned in 2024 and later, becomes taxable in Thailand in the tax year you transfer the money to Thailand. So you have a potential future tax burden hanging over you by not transferring the income. By filing a tax return for that income, you clear that potential future tax burden. And because of the progressive nature of the Thai tax system, and the quite generous annual deductions, it's generally better to get the taxes out of the way annually, than to wait and combine income from several years into the same transfer.
Example:
A fictional foreigner (65 years old) living in Thailand, has an annual foreign pension of THB 1 million and pays tax in his home country to the tune of THB 100k. The double taxation agreement between his home country and Thailand allows both countries to tax that pension.

 

In scenario one, this fictional foreigner transferred the full amount of the pension to Thailand in 2024, and will do the same in the future.

Tax in Thailand on a pension of THB 1 million is THB 50k, but because he will receive credit for the tax paid in his home country, he doesn't actually have to pay any tax in Thailand.

 

In scenario 2, the same person decided not to transfer any money to Thailand in 2024, because he first wanted to see how things developed. However, in 2025 he for whatever reason wants/needs to transfer his pension from both 2024 and 2025 to Thailand. Because he transfers the money in 2025, the income becomes taxable in Thailand in 2025. 

Tax in Thailand on THB 2 million is THB 277,500, from which he can deduct the tax he paid in his home country in 2024 and 2025. That still leaves him having to pay THB 77,500 in Thailand.

 

But as i said, everyone's circumstances and reasoning is different, these are just the reasons why I have decided to file. You do you, and I will do me. 

 

 

 

[motdaeng]

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Please illustrate where your "official TRD document" addresses non-assessable income or DTAs.

 

  (Hint:  it doesn't.)

 

please tell me where did I claim it ... 

[CallumWK]

2 hours ago, federicoP said:

an official who says that the tax would be "very small" and that "other things that could be deducted are likely higher",  only shows his superficiality and incompetence

 

You have just correctly describe the whole Thailand revenue department.

By now I have had face to face conversations with the director of the jomtien revenue department on 3 different occasions, and each time I had to correct his claims, after which he admitted being wrong.

So what are the chances that the staff at the desk know what they are talking about?

[TheAppletons]

35 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

please tell me where did I claim it ... 

 

  No, you claimed "what we do have is an official document from the TRD that clearly explains who is required to file a tax return." 

 

  It isn't complete and thus it actually does NOT clearly explain who is required to file. 

 

  Many people who meet both of the qualifications listed in that oversimplified, fifth-grade level graphic do not, indeed, need to file because the income they remitted is non-assessable.

 

  

[Everyman]

38 minutes ago, Sophon said:

Two weeks ago I went to the local Revenue Department office here in Lamphun where I live. I showed the clerk/officer the document from the Revenue Department head office (pasted above in motdaeng's post), and explained to her that I wanted to file a tax return including my foreign pension. Unsurprisingly she had no idea how to do that, as they had received no guidance from Bangkok on the matter. Consequently, I was handed off to her boss who also knew nothing about this, but could see from the official document that I was in fact expected to file a tax return for my foreign pension.

 

Over the next hour or so, I explained my circumstances (through translation by my wife) to the boss-lady, we looked at all my documentation and together managed to file my tax return electronically.  Everything was conducted in a very cordial and service minded fashion. I have just checked my tax return online, and it has been accepted and finalized by whoever does the post-file processing.

 

The problem people have had when trying to file their tax return, is that the provincial offices have received no guidance from Bangkok, and culturally when Thai people don't know how to handle a situation, they often revert to the "no need" response, even when that is not true.

 

Some people here ask, why on earth anyone would voluntarily go to the Revenue Department and file a tax return. Everyone's situation is different, but personally I have several reasons for filing:

 

Firstly, living in a foreign country where I have no absolute right to live, I try to do things by the book, which includes filing a tax return when i am obligated to do so. I don't want any risk of being accused of tax evasion (however small that risk might be) and jeopardize my future here. Especially since I don't actually have to pay any tax on my pension. The tax I pay at source is far more than any tax Thailand would potentially be entitled to, and I would get a credit for the tax paid at source.

 

Secondly, I am entitled to claim back the 15% withholding tax on my bank interest. It is not a fortune, but I still want it back. It's a nice little bonus to get the annual check from the Revenue Department.

 

Thirdly, avoiding having to file a tax return in Thailand by not transferring your foreign income, or simply ignoring the obligation to file for income you have transferred, could be counterproductive. The new tax rules say that any assessable foreign income earned in 2024 and later, becomes taxable in Thailand in the tax year you transfer the money to Thailand. So you have a potential future tax burden hanging over you by not transferring the income. By filing a tax return for that income, you clear that potential future tax burden. And because of the progressive nature of the Thai tax system, and the quite generous annual deductions, it's generally better to get the taxes out of the way annually, than to wait and combine income from several years into the same transfer.
Example:
A fictional foreigner (65 years old) living in Thailand, has an annual foreign pension of THB 1 million and pays tax in his home country to the tune of THB 100k. The double taxation agreement between his home country and Thailand allows both countries to tax that pension.

 

In scenario one, this fictional foreigner transferred the full amount of the pension to Thailand in 2024, and will do the same in the future.

Tax in Thailand on a pension of THB 1 million is THB 50k, but because he will receive credit for the tax paid in his home country, he doesn't actually have to pay any tax in Thailand.

 

In scenario 2, the same person decided not to transfer any money to Thailand in 2024, because he first wanted to see how things developed. However, in 2025 he for whatever reason wants/needs to transfer his pension from both 2024 and 2025 to Thailand. Because he transfers the money in 2025, the income becomes taxable in Thailand in 2025. 

Tax in Thailand on THB 2 million is THB 277,500, from which he can deduct the tax he paid in his home country in 2024 and 2025. That still leaves him having to pay THB 77,500 in Thailand.

 

But as i said, everyone's circumstances and reasoning is different, these are just the reasons why I have decided to file. You do you, and I will do me. 

 

 

 

 

Doing things “by the book” in Thailand seems like it should insulate you from unforeseen hardships, but I think that’s too optimistic. Let’s face it, the common populace doesn’t behave that way, for a reason. It’s not just laziness or something, it’s a knowledge that doing things that way can actually backfire. 

[bamnutsak]

1 hour ago, Sophon said:

I have just checked my tax return online, and it has been accepted and finalized by whoever does the post-file processing.

 

Did you have accessable income in 2024?

 

How much did you end up paying in income tax?

 

 

[Andycoops]

A friend of mine filed and was told to pay 40,000baht on his pension transfers from the UK to Thailand, his only source of income, from last year 2024.

 

They wanted him to pay there and then but he refused.

 

He met a German guy who was also filing at the same local office and he was told his tax bill was 130,000baht. Not sure if it was all pension income though.

[Peterphuket]

10 hours ago, ukrules said:

Think of it as being similar to immigration making a mistake on your entry stamp.

It's your responsibility - not theirs. Same thing.

Yes, just imagine if they admit they made a mistake....
Impossible, losing face in LOS is virtually fatal.

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

We see the same thing in almost every single real world report: the Thai RD aren't interested in taxation of any foreign remitted income.

 

If you're not working or running a business in Thailand, you don't need to deal with the TRD.

 

That's the status quo, it hasn't changed.

 

 

It has where I am, Surin province, I was ordered to get a Thai ID (pink card) first, then I was told I couldn't offset my Thai son (17 and 'legalized) because I wasn't married to his mother, both of whom live in my household, I was told to get an end of year statement from BBK concerning my pension transfers and to come back when I had done that.

[Peterphuket]

1 minute ago, Peterphuket said:

Yes, just imagine if they admit they made a mistake....
Impossible, losing face in LOS is virtually fatal.

Even with my girlfriend, who I have a long-standing relationship with, you feel the rub when she has to admit a mistake, as a foreigner you never get used to it.

[anrcaccount]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

It has where I am, Surin province, I was ordered to get a Thai ID (pink card) first, then I was told I couldn't offset my Thai son (17 and 'legalized) because I wasn't married to his mother, both of whom live in my household, I was told to get an end of year statement from BBK concerning my pension transfers and to come back when I had done that.

 

Why did you go to the TRD?

 

Did you go/file any of the previous years you've lived here?

 

I'm willing to bet nothing will have changed, if you hadn't decided to take yourself to the local TRD.

 

 

[offset]

23 minutes ago, Andycoops said:

A friend of mine filed and was told to pay 40,000baht on his pension transfers from the UK to Thailand, his only source of income, from last year 2024.

 

They wanted him to pay there and then but he refused.

 

He met a German guy who was also filing at the same local office and he was told his tax bill was 130,000baht. Not sure if it was all pension income though.

Did the take all the prove about what tax that they should of paid in their own country or are they living a life where they do not pay taxes  in any country 

[riclag]

10 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

So you're more informed than the Thai Tax official?

 

You simply can't wrap your head around all this talk of taxes is bs

Its truly disturbing isn’t it!

 A lawyer said wait till immigration or the authorities contact you!

 

I also heard if a province does allow you to file , you’re expected to every year! 

2 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

You have just correctly describe the whole Thailand revenue department.

By now I have had face to face conversations with the director of the jomtien revenue department on 3 different occasions, and each time I had to correct his claims, after which he admitted being wrong.

So what are the chances that the staff at the desk know what they are talking about?

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

 

Why did you go to the TRD?

 

Did you go/file any of the previous years you've lived here?

 

I'm willing to bet nothing will have changed, if you hadn't decided to take yourself to the local TRD.

 

 

I haven't been back since and don't have a tax number. I am under the impression that the TRD's new interpretation of the tax laws concerning expats doesn't require a change of law and that we are tax liable. My pension comes from Germany, it isn't taxed there as they assume I am taxed in Thailand, as far as I can make out German pensions aren't covered under the DTA. I have worked out that I would be liable to pay 28 - 30 k in tax.

[kingstonkid]

This is why I had a professional do mine I make sure that I am legal and don't have to worry abut the changing guidelines and rules.  OP to might be an idea to check most of the companies will give you good advice.

[oldestswinger]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Hey, you do you. Time after time expats are being told not to file. Comparing taxes to immigration requirements is not same same.

Not only being told not to file, but being refused a TIN.

[offset]

20 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Why did you go to the TRD?

 

Did you go/file any of the previous years you've lived here?

 

I'm willing to bet nothing will have changed, if you hadn't decided to take yourself to the local TRD.

 

 

I have an interesting thing with my son because I have 100% custody over him with a court order to prove it, so tomorrow I will find out if that is acceptable when I will try to file for my taxes

[jesimps]

15 hours ago, offset said:

The problems are the individual is still responsible for filing tax 

If the tax officer is wrong (which most do not understand about DTAs) it will still come back on the individual 

 

True, but what's to be done if they point blank refuse to issue a number, burgle the place and nick one?

[jesimps]

10 hours ago, ukrules said:

Think of it as being similar to immigration making a mistake on your entry stamp.

It's your responsibility - not theirs. Same thing.

I see lots of posts saying that it's our responsibility, but no suggestions of how to obtain a TIN if we're refused one. It's not as though we're begging to be taxed here.

[anrcaccount]

21 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

33 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Why did you go to the TRD?

 

Did you go/file any of the previous years you've lived here?

 

I'm willing to bet nothing will have changed, if you hadn't decided to take yourself to the local TRD.

 

 

I haven't been back since and don't have a tax number. I am under the impression that the TRD's new interpretation of the tax laws concerning expats doesn't require a change of law and that we are tax liable. My pension comes from Germany, it isn't taxed there as they assume I am taxed in Thailand, as far as I can make out German pensions aren't covered under the DTA. I have worked out that I would be liable to pay 28 - 30 k in tax.

 

The thing is, if you think you're liable this year, you were liable every other previous year your pension was remitted directly to Thailand. 

 

All those years you did nothing, right, and no consequences.

 

On a practical and operational level there has been no change from the TRD and the "new interpretation" is simply theory at this point.

 

Status quo remains.