Popular Post Social Media Posted June 20 Popular Post Posted June 20 Labour Whip Resigns in Protest Against Starmer’s Welfare Reforms Labour MP Vicky Foxcroft has resigned from her role as a party whip, stating she cannot stand behind welfare reforms proposed by Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer that would result in financial losses for disabled people. In a letter addressed directly to Starmer, Foxcroft expressed her opposition to what she described as damaging and unjust changes to the welfare system. “I cannot support reforms which include cuts to disabled people’s finances,” she wrote, making her stance clear in a growing internal dispute within the Labour Party. BREAKING: Labour MP Vicky Foxcroft has resigned from her post as a government whip over Sir Keir Starmer's plan to cut benefits. Latest: https://t.co/mqR3CfqsUv 📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 pic.twitter.com/vO3SYp4rcM — Sky News (@SkyNews) June 19, 2025 Foxcroft’s resignation comes as tensions continue to rise over a controversial £5 billion-a-year package of proposed savings to the government’s disability and sickness benefits bill. Central to the plan are reductions in the personal independence payment (PIP), a benefit designed to support people with long-term physical or mental health conditions. These measures have sparked the largest rebellion of Starmer’s leadership so far. More than 150 Labour MPs have reportedly signed a private letter voicing their opposition to the planned cuts, underscoring a deepening divide between the party’s leadership and its backbenchers. Despite mounting pressure, the Prime Minister has remained defiant. Over the weekend, he made it clear he was prepared to face down dissent from within his own ranks, emphasizing the necessity of implementing the reforms. “The reforms must be pushed through,” he insisted, signaling his determination to proceed despite the backlash. Specific details of the legislative changes are expected to be laid out later this week, ahead of a crucial parliamentary vote likely to take place before summer recess begins next month. The outcome of that vote may prove to be a defining moment for Starmer’s administration, as he seeks to press forward with a policy that has triggered both political fallout and public controversy. Foxcroft’s departure from the frontbench adds further weight to the growing opposition movement and highlights the difficult balancing act facing Labour’s leadership: reconciling fiscal discipline with social responsibility, while maintaining party unity in the lead-up to a critical vote. Her resignation letter marks a public and pointed rejection of the current direction of Labour policy under Starmer’s leadership, placing further scrutiny on the Prime Minister’s handling of internal dissent and the broader implications of cutting support for vulnerable citizens. The issue of disability benefits reform is fast becoming a litmus test not only for Starmer’s leadership, but for Labour’s core values as a party that has long prided itself on defending the welfare state. Adapted by ASEAN Now from The Telegraph 2025-06-21 3
Popular Post James105 Posted June 21 Popular Post Posted June 21 Well at least it seems that Labour are coming to terms with the fact that you cannot have open borders and a functioning welfare state - you can only have one or the other. It's a shame that they have decided to continue the open borders policy and do not want to make the savings by deporting foreign nationals who claim benefits and/or defending the borders rather than supporting the British nationals that need welfare, but it is what it is. 2 2 2 3
RayC Posted June 21 Posted June 21 5 hours ago, James105 said: Well at least it seems that Labour are coming to terms with the fact that you cannot have open borders and a functioning welfare state - you can only have one or the other. If that were the case then the welfare state would have ceased to function while we were a member of the EU. It didn't. 5 hours ago, James105 said: It's a shame that they have decided to continue the open borders policy and do not want to make the savings by deporting foreign nationals who claim benefits and/or defending the borders rather than supporting the British nationals that need welfare, but it is what it is. There is no 'open borders policy'; in fact (almost) the exact opposite. Immigration to the UK is more tightly controlled now than at any time since the early '90s as a result of Brexit and the loss of freedom of movement. 1 1
Popular Post The Cyclist Posted June 21 Popular Post Posted June 21 3 minutes ago, RayC said: There is no 'open borders policy'; in fact (almost) the exact opposite. Immigration to the UK is more tightly controlled now than at any time since the early '90s as a result of Brexit and the loss of freedom of movement. This says different the numbers reduced significantly in 2024 due to the Tories cutting family / spouse Visas. 2 1
RayC Posted June 21 Posted June 21 1 minute ago, The Cyclist said: This says different the numbers reduced significantly in 2024 due to the Tories cutting family / spouse Visas. "An open border is a border that enables free movement of people and often of goods between jurisdictions with no restrictions on movement and is lacking a border control" (Wikipedia) By definition, the UK does NOT now have an 'Open Borders policy' as immigration from all countries is subject to conditions being met. As I implied, the UK did have an 'Open Borders policy' (with 27 other nations) when we were a member of the EU, and that at least partially explains the overall increase in immigration numbers between 1990 and 2020. However, as we are obviously no longer an EU member, the increase in numbers since 2020 cannot be attributed to an 'Open Borders' policy. 2
Popular Post The Cyclist Posted June 21 Popular Post Posted June 21 2 minutes ago, RayC said: By definition, the UK does NOT now have an 'Open Borders policy' as immigration from all countries is subject to conditions being met. 50,000 Dinghy Divers in the last year say otherwise. It might not be " Official Policy " but it is an open border nonetheless. 2 1
RayC Posted June 21 Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said: 50,000 Dinghy Divers in the last year say otherwise. It might not be " Official Policy " but it is an open border nonetheless. Governments - both Tory and Labour - have tried to stop illegal immigration. I am talking about legal immigration: A (limited) 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are not mutually exclusive situations. 1
The Cyclist Posted June 21 Posted June 21 2 hours ago, RayC said: Governments - both Tory and Labour - have tried to stop illegal immigration. Have they really ? Rwanda might have work on the deterrent factor, if Lawfare and Labour hadn't stopped it. Labours, Smash the Gangs, is an abject failure. 2 hours ago, RayC said: I am talking about legal immigration: A (limited) 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are not mutually exclusive situations. How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ? These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants. Neither legal migration Policy or the Welfare State Policy is worth the paper that they are written on. Not much in the UK at Government level is worth the paper it is written on, hence the reason the UK is clinging on at the S bend and in danger of flushing down it completely.
JonnyF Posted June 21 Posted June 21 Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants. He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled. He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him. 1
RayC Posted June 21 Posted June 21 12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said: Have they really ? Rwanda might have work on the deterrent factor, if Lawfare and Labour hadn't stopped it. Labours, Smash the Gangs, is an abject failure. How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ? These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants. Neither legal migration Policy or the Welfare State Policy is worth the paper that they are written on. Not much in the UK at Government level is worth the paper it is written on, hence the reason the UK is clinging on at the S bend and in danger of flushing down it completely. You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are: 1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy and 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive. 1
The Cyclist Posted June 22 Posted June 22 10 hours ago, RayC said: You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are: Let's look at your points in a little more detail 10 hours ago, RayC said: 1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy Whether they operate an " Open Borders Immigration Policy " is neither here nor there. The facts speak for themselves. Legal migration. See graph above. Illegal migration. 20,000 this year already, 50,000 since Labour came to power. Whatever way you want to look at, this is not a " Controlled Border Policy " 10 hours ago, RayC said: 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive. We do not have a " Functioning " welfare system. To try and pretend otherwise, is deluded in the extreme. 1 million foreigners, claiming £7.5 Billion a year in benefits, tells me that there is something very wrong with both the Immigration Policy and the Welfare Policy. To put that into a bit of perspective. No idea if Thailand has the equivalent of DWP Offices. But I can just imagine the reaction I would get if I rocked up at one and said give me benefits. It would be ID and deported.
James105 Posted June 22 Posted June 22 11 hours ago, RayC said: You are obviously perfectly entitled to your opinion, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my points which are: 1) the UK does not operate an 'Open Borders' immigration policy and 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive. Open borders and a functioning welfare state are indeed mutually exclusive. Denmark published the figures that the UK are too afraid to admit. You could probably get away with an open border policy that allowed westerners from western nations to freely move between countries, but that is not what is happening is it? 1
JonnyF Posted June 22 Posted June 22 11 hours ago, RayC said: 2) that there is evidence to suggest that operating an 'Open Borders' policy and a functioning Welfare State are mutually exclusive. Classic socialism. Spending other people's money on their vanity projects to appease their white guilt, until it runs out and then being voted out of office. The evidence is clear. They have stopped pensioners fuel allowance and cut welfare for the disabled while spending billions on immigrants. If they could fund it all they would. Fortunately they will be a one term government. Like most socialist governments they will do tremendous damage during that one term. Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. I'm guessing you were never a huge tax payer though. Recipients of benefits of the welfare state tend to like them more than those who pay for them. 1 1
billd766 Posted June 22 Posted June 22 15 hours ago, The Cyclist said: 50,000 Dinghy Divers in the last year say otherwise. It might not be " Official Policy " but it is an open border nonetheless. It may however, be part of a "turn a Nelson blind eye" policy.
blaze master Posted June 22 Posted June 22 12 hours ago, JonnyF said: Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants. He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled. He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him. Cue shadow ...3....2....1
The Cyclist Posted June 22 Posted June 22 4 hours ago, billd766 said: It may however, be part of a "turn a Nelson blind eye" policy. That is exactly what it is. Clueless, spineless, gutless, too scared to upset people, poor excuses for human being And that's just Politicians. 1 1
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 12 hours ago, The Cyclist said: Let's look at your points in a little more detail Whether they operate an " Open Borders Immigration Policy " is neither here nor there. The facts speak for themselves. Legal migration. See graph above. Illegal migration. 20,000 this year already, 50,000 since Labour came to power. Whatever way you want to look at, this is not a " Controlled Border Policy " The existing UK immigration policies may not be working, but whatever way you look at it the UK does NOT operate an 'Open Borders' policy. You can argue until the cows come home but that is a FACT. 12 hours ago, The Cyclist said: We do not have a " Functioning " welfare system. To try and pretend otherwise, is deluded in the extreme. 1 million foreigners, claiming £7.5 Billion a year in benefits, tells me that there is something very wrong with both the Immigration Policy and the Welfare Policy. The UK welfare state - while far from perfect - has not collapsed. It functions. 12 hours ago, The Cyclist said: To put that into a bit of perspective. No idea if Thailand has the equivalent of DWP Offices. But I can just imagine the reaction I would get if I rocked up at one and said give me benefits. It would be ID and deported. Neither here nor there. Completely irrelevant. 1
josephbloggs Posted June 22 Posted June 22 On 6/21/2025 at 7:53 PM, The Cyclist said: How can a legal immigration system be working. When 1 million foreigners are paid £7.5 Billion a year in welfare benefits ? These figures do not include Illegal Immigrants. You keep banging on about that. And you keep failing to back it up with a link. Is that because the figure is for households with at least one foreign national, not £7.5b being claimed by foreign nationals? It is completely different. Usually when people throw out huge figures with no evidence it is because they have an agenda and providing a link to the source would show it is hugely exaggerated. Erm, yeah, seems that is true. And only foreign nationals who have gained Indefinite Leave to Remain, settled status, or refugee status can claim benefits—typically after 5 years, they are not just handed out willy nilly. If you want to be taken seriously be honest about your numbers.
josephbloggs Posted June 22 Posted June 22 23 hours ago, JonnyF said: Someone has to take hit to pay for all the immigrants. He has already taken the fuel allowance from the pensioners and now he is taking welfare from the disabled. He loves to target the weak. No wonder even his own party hate him. Unlike the Tories who love the weak and the poor and would never mock them or anything. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kay-mason-billig-norfolk-tory-35424539
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 11 hours ago, James105 said: Open borders and a functioning welfare state are indeed mutually exclusive. No they are not and it is completely irrational to suggest that they are. 'Mutually exclusive' means that two things cannot exist at the same time. The fact that welfare states exist and function in 27 EU states where open borders exist proves that they can co-exist. QED. 11 hours ago, James105 said: Denmark published the figures that the UK are too afraid to admit. You could probably get away with an open border policy that allowed westerners from western nations to freely move between countries, but that is not what is happening is it? So you now agree that an open borders policy and a welfare state can co-exist. You're correct: The UK does not have an 'Open Borders' policy. I'm pleased that you now agree with my original points.
DezLez Posted June 22 Posted June 22 32 minutes ago, RayC said: Neither here nor there. Completely irrelevant. Just like your whole post!
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 11 hours ago, JonnyF said: Classic socialism. Spending other people's money on their vanity projects to appease their white guilt, until it runs out and then being voted out of office. The evidence is clear. They have stopped pensioners fuel allowance and cut welfare for the disabled while spending billions on immigrants. If they could fund it all they would. Fortunately they will be a one term government. Like most socialist governments they will do tremendous damage during that one term. Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. I'm guessing you were never a huge tax payer though. Recipients of benefits of the welfare state tend to like them more than those who pay for them. Classic JonnyF. An angry, thinly veiled racist/xenophobic rant topped off by a snide personal attack. Nothing of substance offered. Nothing worthy of discussion. Nothing changes. 1 1
The Cyclist Posted June 22 Posted June 22 31 minutes ago, RayC said: The UK welfare state - while far from perfect - has not collapsed. It functions. Sure https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says Would you like me to post links to the gangs that have been jailed for fraud ? Not even in the UK to commit the fraud. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c844g4kpjxdo It is close to collapse, and it does not function in the manner intended. 35 minutes ago, RayC said: but whatever way you look at it the UK does NOT operate an 'Open Borders' policy. Is 2000 dinghy divers in the last week, a sign of robust borders ? Is "Smashing the Gangs " working ? Not sure what you call it. But I call 2000 uninvited guests in a week an open border. You can write " FACT " in capital letters all you want. It does not change reality. 1
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 4 minutes ago, DezLez said: Just like your whole post! Thank you for that incisive comment. 1
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 1 minute ago, The Cyclist said: Sure https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says Would you like me to post links to the gangs that have been jailed for fraud ? Not even in the UK to commit the fraud. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c844g4kpjxdo It is close to collapse, and it does not function in the manner intended. Is 2000 dinghy divers in the last week, a sign of robust borders ? Is "Smashing the Gangs " working ? Not sure what you call it. But I call 2000 uninvited guests in a week an open border. You can write " FACT " in capital letters all you want. It does not change reality. Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. This is what exists in the UK today. QED. 1
The Cyclist Posted June 22 Posted June 22 1 minute ago, RayC said: Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. This is what exists in the UK today. QED. Quote Britain’s benefits system faces collapse without cuts to disability payments, Liz Kendall has said, as the government published plans that put it on a collision course with dozens of angry Labour MPs. Kendall published her welfare reform bill on Wednesday, confirming it would lead to benefit cuts for 950,000 people by 2030. She said the country’s £326bn social security net might cease to exist if costs continued to escalate. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says Are you calling a Labour Cabinet Minister a liar ?
James105 Posted June 22 Posted June 22 5 minutes ago, RayC said: Welfare State: A system whereby the state undertakes to protect the health and well-being of its citizens, especially those in financial or social need, by means of grants, pensions, and other benefits. This is what exists in the UK today. QED. The key word of course being citizens. I don't see any reference to cultural enrichers arriving on dinghies there, do you? 1 2
RayC Posted June 22 Posted June 22 13 minutes ago, The Cyclist said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/18/uk-benefits-system-could-collapse-if-payments-are-not-cut-liz-kendall-says Are you calling a Labour Cabinet Minister a liar ? No. I have not denied that the Welfare State is under pressure, but to repeat for the umpteenth time, my points are 1) a (limited) open borders policy and provision of a welfare state are not mutually exclusive and 2) the UK does not operate an open border policy. These are facts. I am claiming no more or less than that. In that regard, the links which you provide are at best tangential. 1
JonnyF Posted June 23 Posted June 23 11 hours ago, RayC said: Classic JonnyF. An angry, thinly veiled racist/xenophobic rant topped off by a snide personal attack. Nothing of substance offered. Nothing worthy of discussion. Nothing changes. Ray Ray Ray. How many times do I have to tell you. We're not racists anymore. Anyone who disagrees with the obviously flawed left wing policies destroying the country is now a right wing extremist terrorist. 😄 Do try to keep up. Just as anyone who wanted an inquiry into the predominantly Pakistani rape gangs was a right wing opportunist (until Starmer himself agreed to it of course). 😆 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jun/15/keir-starmer-makes-deft-u-turn-mid-air-over-grooming-gangs-inquiry What a clown show. All you guys have left is your tired old cliches about anyone who disagrees with you. 1
Chomper Higgot Posted June 23 Posted June 23 23 hours ago, JonnyF said: Classic socialism. Spending other people's money on their vanity projects to appease their white guilt, until it runs out and then being voted out of office. The evidence is clear. They have stopped pensioners fuel allowance and cut welfare for the disabled while spending billions on immigrants. If they could fund it all they would. Fortunately they will be a one term government. Like most socialist governments they will do tremendous damage during that one term. Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. I'm guessing you were never a huge tax payer though. Recipients of benefits of the welfare state tend to like them more than those who pay for them. “Like Thatcher said. The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.” The same Thatcher who sold off the nations assets to fund her failed economic experiment. The nation’s silver hawked off to Tory chums leaving working people with hollowed out public services and the wheels turning on the collapse of British society. Private profit, socialized consequences. 1 1
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