Does Anyone Leave Thailand Wealthy?

[chinthee]

I hate to keep calling a spade a spade, but really I do know what I'm talking about. Please young people, go to the exciting and happening places in this world to make your fortune. Take some unique skills with you too, or lots of money, or very big balls, or all three of the above. Thailand offers very little for any of you in this connection. Go make your money there, and then come back here and live like a king or queen. I do.

[siam-i-am]

Most have kept it to themselves as if you brag about making money in thailand some theiving scumbags will take it off you quicker than you can say "can i see your government id please ,.

You are so right I know a dozen or more who are doing very nice and not one of them owns a bar or restaurant, they all own their own condo's or house's, do a couple of hours a day and keep there heads down. The opportunities are there, alas so are the pitfalls.

[percy2]

At the end of the day, the majority of Farang that put money into Thailand will lose.

It's as simple as that, very few make make money on their investment, there are too many things against Farangs.

And long may this myth continue, as it lets others go about making wads of cash doing innovative things here while scaring the others off.

I was going to say SHUSH!

But fortunately they don't believe you any way.

Nobody mentioned Bob Kevorkian.

Cheers

[kiakaha]

I'm sure lots of people "based" in Thailand have made millions on forex and shorting equities in the last 3 weeks.

[Tinkelbell]

Most have kept it to themselves as if you brag about making money in thailand some theiving scumbags will take it off you quicker than you can say "can i see your government id please ,.

My father-in-law was such a man. He kept his business mostly to himself. Even his wife (of 45 years) did not know how much he was worth. He lived very humbly, never flashy. His business covered Japan-Taiwan-US.

Not that he was worried about taxing he was more on to being kidnapping.

In the early 80's while Taiwan was booming. There were many cases of rich families...husband or wife or children got kidnapped and held for ransoms. Several cases that done by someone who had worked for the family or knew someone who worked there. In such cases the kidnappers would killed the victims to eliminate eyed witnesses or evidences.

He had fooled us all.

[Scott]

Basically, thus far, hardly any people manage to come here and make a fortune. Bob Kevorkian seems to be one of the exceptions, and he did it honestly (or so it appears). I know a number of people who have done well, and could retire tomorrow, but their fortune won't last through another generation and they certainly won't be setting up any charities or adding a building to their alma mater.

By the way, this thread isn't meant to be a put-down of Thailand. I like it here, like the people and enjoy spending what I have as well as what I brought with me. It just doesn't seem like the kind of place where it would be as easy as a lot of other places to do quite well,legally.

[Dakhar]

I lived in Taiwan in the early 90's and what you posted it true.

Also, the rules are stacked against the falangs.... basically it is like a casino, the odds will always be in favor of the house.

Now lets look at some logic. If one was to think his market is going to be Thailand.... well that target market is not made up of a lot of people with disposable income.

Secondly.... think of yourself wakeing up one morning, and not being able to speak.... how do you function, how do you communicate? Because that is exactly what it is like when one gets off the plane. English may be the language of business, but Thailand has yet to discover this.

What is a fortune.... some folks here, like to hint they have achieved "Paris Hilton" status while being in Thialand. I venture to say... Hardly. Sure, they may make a million baht... That may be A LOT to the average Thai, but a million baht gives one the lifestyle of a person living in the US on 50K USD a year. Hot water, AC, a Full tank of gas, a full belly, etc.

Woopee. Currenlty I earn over 2 million bht a year, and I feel poor. I can't afford the things that I really loved back home, like a BMW M3, a yard, a nice home, working less than 40 hrs a week etc etc.

Here, I can run the AC, I can have GPRS net access, UBC, I can eat practically whatever I want.... WOOPEE. But the real wealth, the "Paris Hilton" wealth takes A LOT of money. I would guess at least 300K - 500K USD annually to really live it up, big yards, 3-4 BMW's Nice homes etc etc.

Basically if you could be a big winner back home, stay home, because there is a phrase "home court advantage" and the phrase is accurate.

[Heng]

Basically, thus far, hardly any people manage to come here and make a fortune.

I know a number of people who have done well, and could retire tomorrow, but their fortune won't last through another generation and they certainly won't be setting up any charities or adding a building to their alma mater.

Multigenerational wealth IMO isn't really a goal for a lot of westerners here (it might be in their minds before they actually get their boots on the ground... but they quickly realize that it's not going to happen once they are here). If it was, you'd be able to add Thai-falangs to the standard list of Thai Chinese and Thai Indians. It's not just the system, but often their choice of spouse/local partner/family usually creates a situation ripe for wealth (however minor) dissipation within one generation, often within a few to several years in many cases.

[Heng]

Woopee. Currenlty I earn over 2 million bht a year, and I feel poor. I can't afford the things that I really loved back home, like a BMW M3, a yard, a nice home, working less than 40 hrs a week etc etc.

Here, I can run the AC, I can have GPRS net access, UBC, I can eat practically whatever I want.... WOOPEE. But the real wealth, the "Paris Hilton" wealth takes A LOT of money. I would guess at least 300K - 500K USD annually to really live it up, big yards, 3-4 BMW's Nice homes etc etc.

In a lot of places, that is still poor (although of course, that term is relative). There aren't too many wealthy folks anywhere would would spend a couple years salary on a toy that was going to depreciate at the rate that most cars do.

IMO the ubiquitous "toys I want" list is one of the things that most well to do get rid of very early in their wealth building. Almost everyone I knew in school had some type of list like that. It doesn't take long to figure out that you don't get anywhere by buying a huge list of things that are moving in a negative direction value wise (to some extent, that goes for all those folks who keep upgrading their mortgages, increasing their debt, etc. to get the bigger house, 2nd and 3rd homes). It's fine when it's 100% equity for everything but then it's not really a toys list, it's just an expense hardly worth mentioning, like candy.

[Dakhar]

Agreed,

In the US, my wife would NEVER agree on the purchase of a care equal to a year of more income.... but while in Thailand, she takes no issue in that train of thought.

Needless to say, I do! I got me a fancy Honda wave 125 though. Electric start and all, fully loaded with mirrors & a hidden trunk under the seat. I even have a fancy blue air pressure valve cap. I call it the family vehicle.

Nope, nothing but Tuk Tuks and Toyatos on my income.

[Payboy]

Nigel Cornick of Raimon Land is probably one of the more prominant foreigners made good over here.

Nigel Cornick is not a major sharholder in Raimon Land - he is simply the CEO. Nishita Shah, an Indian, is one of the top 20 richest Thais through her holdings in Precious Shipping which she recently inherited. She is only 27.

Plenty of foreigners who have made money in real estate. As for Nishita Shah, if she is Thai of Indian descent (which is the case if she inherited via Khalid or his brother) then she isn't really any different to the various offspring in the CP/Central type clans; just not having Thai Chinese blood, but rather Thai Indian blood.

As for PSL, an excellent company, run by excellent people.

nishita is actually kirit shah's daughter - shah's are not related to khalid's family other than via business interests - kirit is the real big wig at g. premjee. i'd put a good wager that there's not an ounce of thai blood in there.

[UnknownPoster]

Lots of success stories.

Most don't flaunt it.

[bendix]

[

So you're telling me that it's as easy for a Farang to make money in Thailand as a businessman as it is for a Thai guy ?

LOL

No, he didnt say that. THAT is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps if you paid attention more, you might become more successful.

It is possible to make money here in business as a farang. That is patently obvious. That many don't says more about the quality of farangs washing up on this shore with their 'make a bar, make a killing' attitude, than it does about anything else.

Good ideas, innovative thinking, special skill sets, finding the right niche are all possible. And they are happening.

In fact, in some cases it's easier for a farang. Take consulting for example, particularly consulting to western-oriented organisations. It's much easier for a farang to be seen to be giving 'hard or difficult' advice than it is for a Thai. Farang experience, farang perspectives, farang sensibilities - they all are valuable to organisations seeking to do business in the global economy. As a farang consultant or advisor, it seems i have a special license to talk more directly to similar organisations than - with all due respect - a Thai consultant who might hold back.

[steveromagnino]

I hate to keep calling a spade a spade, but really I do know what I'm talking about. Please young people, go to the exciting and happening places in this world to make your fortune. Take some unique skills with you too, or lots of money, or very big balls, or all three of the above. Thailand offers very little for any of you in this connection. Go make your money there, and then come back here and live like a king or queen. I do.

except...

I have a close friend who showed up here in 1993/94 and decided to retire from being a pro athlete making almost nothing a year, and set up a new windsurfing company.

Since then, he has expanded to the point that within 10 years his brand is now the best selling windsurf brand in the world. He consistently outsells all others, and the whole key to his success was his decision to base himself out of Thailand. He became the only brand based in the same country as where the majority of boards are now produced; he uses the creativity and skills of the Thai staff to maintain a premier brand position/service position while also using the lighter winds that Thailand receives as his motivator to guide the entire industry towards better equipment for light weather.

My guess, is that he is a multi multi millionaire, and he acheived this in 10 years flat from a cash pool of maybe $5k USD at the most. He is totally dominant in his industry, and his boards are the winningest boards on the pro circuit; it is quite likely the new olympic boards will be from his company.

or........

A company set up by 3 Australians, DWP Citispace has become one of the world's most successful graphic design companies, making the founding partners very very rich in the process. Using the skills and creativity of Thai graphic designers with a network of sales offices worldwide, they now do work such as the new store for Louis Vuitton in Paris/China/UAE, Calvin Klein worldwide, Billabong worldwide, and more. Within 15 years they have grown from about 3 staff to more than 150. Hugely profitable.

or.........

A guy who knew something about coffee and set up Coffeeworld as a franchise, now raking in some serious bucks.

or......

A guy who knew something about the hospitality trade and expanded it to include fashion, eating, hotels and more - Minor Group

or......

A company that does voice recording for training manuals in multiple languages; based out of Thailand they use the large number of nationalities here to record training details, and use the skills of Thai staff to manage content and distribute around the world

or.....

Various jewelry, decor and fabric experts, particularly silver, who use Thailand as a manufacturing base for their brands that they then turn around to sell around the world; some now going direct via business to consumer clicks and mortar or virtual store operations

or.......

The english guys who formed a partnership with Cobra to set up CMI, a boat builder previously responsible for producing the Prada Amcup boats of 2000, and now producing the Rogers 46 and other ultra high performance carbon race yachts under the IRC rule; their primarily skill is in having better facilities (massive autoclave for instance); central location and skilled labour who carry no cost disadvantage against the other boat yards in the world - mostly based outside USA/western Europe - they compete sucessfully against Vietnam, China, Poland, NZ, Australian and english yards on quality of work and price, making the owners healthily rich

You want more? I got a truck load of ideas that work here and have made their owners rich, that would probably fail elsewhere. I agree in general with you, that in general people with general skills without specialisation that leverages off Thailand will fail here. That is a fairly basic rule of business in a market with generally low barriers to entry (in part due to poor IP protection) and commodity type products that so many farangs insist on marketing.

But come up with something just a LITTLE different and BOOM - life is pretty easy. I am fully aware of my value here in what I do; I might make the same money or more money elsewhere, but I would have to work a lot harder to prove my worth; here my skill in acting as the cross cultural communicator/research/strategist for various Thai and multinational companies makes me worth a lot simply because I can play the part of the Thai or the foreigner and switch between them as required. Most foreign Thai speakers would be able to do the same as I do with no real difference.

[samran]

But come up with something just a LITTLE different and BOOM - life is pretty easy. I am fully aware of my value here in what I do; I might make the same money or more money elsewhere, but I would have to work a lot harder to prove my worth; here my skill in acting as the cross cultural communicator/research/strategist for various Thai and multinational companies makes me worth a lot simply because I can play the part of the Thai or the foreigner and switch between them as required. Most foreign Thai speakers would be able to do the same as I do with no real difference.

Oi!

Thats MY job you kiwi so and so.

[chinthee]

Very good points Steve. Yes, talented people can do very well anywhere. I always said "drop me into any place on earth and I'll be a millionaire within 3 years."

[steveromagnino]

But come up with something just a LITTLE different and BOOM - life is pretty easy. I am fully aware of my value here in what I do; I might make the same money or more money elsewhere, but I would have to work a lot harder to prove my worth; here my skill in acting as the cross cultural communicator/research/strategist for various Thai and multinational companies makes me worth a lot simply because I can play the part of the Thai or the foreigner and switch between them as required. Most foreign Thai speakers would be able to do the same as I do with no real difference.

Oi!

Thats MY job you kiwi so and so.

I already trade marked and patented my idea, which is mine, which I came up with, of working as a middle man.

If you want to do the same business, then I can let you have idea for THai price only 20b. Or falung price 200,000,000m baht 49% share ownership.

Last day, gem exhibition we go quick quick you can sell idea in own country and make money fren. Sabai mak mak luey, so you wan buy sir?

Chintee -

Point taken, most of the people named above didn't decide to come here, then think about what to do. They had a business plan (even if in the windsurfer case, a very hidden one in his head!) and there was a key reason why locating here was better than say Vietnam, Africa or China.

Being an entreprenuer can totally be taught/learned; my own feeling is anyone who says, I want to live in Thailand, then starts looking for things to do is breaking a primary rule of business planning - figuring out your own value add and then finding markets where that value add has a lack of supply and plenty of demand. These people looked at it the opposite way.

I prefer to present my own role as a 'value multiplier' - that way it is a paradigm shift which can provide value which has a networking expodential effect and provides a competitive mutual advantage to both parties but for neither party to know what that is. In other words, I don't do anything or add value, but I know lots of buzz words in both languages. Maybe I should rename myself Accenture I have been practising drawing ovals.

Edited August 24, 2007 by steveromagnino

[thedude]

1. foreigners here (farang or otherwise) stand as good a chance of making it as foreigners in any other 3rd world country, percentage wise.

2. consider however, that unlike many other 3rd world countries, we have a large number of "surplus foreigners" who are not here to make money, eg retiree and non-professional foreigners living in the country who had never done anything entrepreneural back home, and so my above statement needs to take this into account.

3. from my experience, successful people are successful people whether they are in Wall Street or Wireless Road, you need a certain set of characteristics, not just skills and intellect. they are typically highly adaptable, quick-witted, not easily discouraged, infectiously optimistic, very likeable people, who have a knack of understanding business risks, are able to zero-in on the crucial factors and make things happen to their favour.

4. if you havent seen successful foreigners here, its likely that you are hanging in the wrong circles.

Heng made a good point abt chinese and indian foreigners and how their cultures encourage them to rely on progeny and community to develop their wealth and sustain their presence. a certain rootedness is required to sustain wealth, certain though not all western mindsets are focussed round the individual and the present. furthermore, for all the cynics and skeptics, most chinese and indians in thailand obtained thier wealth from real estate, and you cannot hope to accumulate that sort of wealth within one property cycle, which means to say that you must sink roots and be in for the long haul.

[steveromagnino]

Heng made a good point abt chinese and indian foreigners and how their cultures encourage them to rely on progeny and community to develop their wealth and sustain their presence. a certain rootedness is required to sustain wealth, certain though not all western mindsets are focussed round the individual and the present. furthermore, for all the cynics and skeptics, most chinese and indians in thailand obtained thier wealth from real estate, and you cannot hope to accumulate that sort of wealth within one property cycle, which means to say that you must sink roots and be in for the long haul.

I would somewhat agree, but add most Chinese here, the major families anyway, have made large amounts as merchants, positioning themselves between buyer and seller; a business requiring only moderate capital yet generating significant return through multiple transactions. A lot of money was made as the result of assymetric information distribution.

As that succeeded, many moved into other parts of the supply chain. be it gold, rice, sugar, sugar cane, import, export - the locals grew things - a time intensive, capital intensive business - while many Chinese and Indian immigrants took those products to and from Thailand. Also, of course, fewer Indians and CHinese ended up in the civil service and army/police back in the day, meaning more went into business; and the 20th century was a period for business.

The money made was then put into real estate in many cases.

Li and Fung is the modern day equivalent; proof that the role of the middle man can still exist even as knowledge gets shared between buyer and seller more evenly.

[chinthee]

I made a ton of money as a global middleman when I was younger. Middlemen today quite frankly are an endangered species anywhere in the world IMO.

[lannarebirth]

Buzzwords rule! At least when talking to someone who doesn't know his head from his ass. Real entrepenuers see your fee as a debit against the bottom line, unless you put some money in their pocket in toot sweet fashion. I never hire anyone who doesn't pay their own way.

Edited August 24, 2007 by lannarebirth

[roietjimmy]

Add Jim Thompson to the list. Nobody is sure what became of him, so not sure he left wealthy but he sure made a bundle in Thailand.

[Dakhar]

Has anyone mentioned RED BULL?

I like the story of the wind boards... cool beans.

Things I see that could be nice to have is, marinas. They would cater to those that are wealthy, so your market has bucks, just because of the sport of boating... it is very expensive. Thailand does not offer much for marinas.

I could also imagine boat building, marina support, boat repair sercive etc, hotels, super markets, etc all being sprung up to support the Marina area.

I also like the idea of sport cars being MFG'd in Thailand. But that may just because I love cars & boats...

[Heng]

Needless to say, I do! I got me a fancy Honda wave 125 though. Electric start and all, fully loaded with mirrors & a hidden trunk under the seat. I even have a fancy blue air pressure valve cap. I call it the family vehicle.

That's intelligent wealth or at least wealth in the making in my book. Reminds me of a friend of the family who owns nearly all of Soi Yensabai not far from one of my homes in Pattaya. His favorite transportation (or at least the one we most often see him using) is his bicycle. Myself, my two main automobiles are 7 and 8 years old. I don't plan on getting new ones until they completely fall apart (which is unlikely as I replace everything as required... will even drop in new engines at half a million or a million kilometers if necessary) or at least become less than completely comfortable.

[steveromagnino]

Has anyone mentioned RED BULL?

I like the story of the wind boards... cool beans.

Things I see that could be nice to have is, marinas. They would cater to those that are wealthy, so your market has bucks, just because of the sport of boating... it is very expensive. Thailand does not offer much for marinas.

I could also imagine boat building, marina support, boat repair sercive etc, hotels, super markets, etc all being sprung up to support the Marina area.

I also like the idea of sport cars being MFG'd in Thailand. But that may just because I love cars & boats...

Well, marinas I suspect are about to hit saturation; there are already marinas in pattaya, 3 in Phuket and so the only new areas are Samui and Koh Chang (both of which have natural bays and some access issues for boat owners); Phuket has 2 new marinas under development and Yacht Haven is being expanded.

The money to be made in marinas is in the property surrounding.

That said, there most definitely is money in the marine trade, and with no tax, it is not a bad market to be in. Difficulty is in finding the way to connect to Thai consumers; the number of non Thais here willing to buy boats is very low; like almost every other market, anyone stupid enough to focus their attention on non Thais simply because they cannot be bothered learning how to reach the locals will have a much reduced target.

So...first person to figure out how to bypass the issues of sun, general fear of the sea and proximity to BKK issue will make a killing in water sports.

For support services, most are here now and there are plenty of Kiwis and Aussies mostly, making decent money doing many of the things you suggest - electronics, canvas creations, etc.

Cobra are already doing a lot in the way of carbon body parts for cars; Thailand has a ton of performance body parts for the import tuner scene - seats etc, almost impossible i would think for a foreigner to be able to easily enter this market as there are so many suppliers - if you know more than most (e.g. you worked at Veilside or similar) then maybe.

As for Red Bull, well the Austrian didn't make his cash here, he made it taking a Thai product abroad and pulling along his Thai shareholder with him.

Chinthee

I would agree being a middleman is extremely hazaardous these days with the net and a less opaque market place - however Li and Fung prove you can still put yourself in that position successfully.

Edited August 24, 2007 by steveromagnino

[chinthee]

Steve, yes I know Li and Fung well. I spent my career chasing around the far corners of the earth as a commodities trader, was a physical trader of crude oil, etc.. Very high risk business I was in with big wins and losses, a lot like being a professional gambler.

Even for big houses, I just think the margins are so small today and so many ways to go direct now in so many product and service areas that it's got to be tough to be a middleman. I started with a telex machine in my bedroom and a plane ticket. Today, anybody is only one click from anything.

[Dakhar]

Needless to say, I do! I got me a fancy Honda wave 125 though. Electric start and all, fully loaded with mirrors & a hidden trunk under the seat. I even have a fancy blue air pressure valve cap. I call it the family vehicle.

That's intelligent wealth or at least wealth in the making in my book. Reminds me of a friend of the family who owns nearly all of Soi Yensabai not far from one of my homes in Pattaya. His favorite transportation (or at least the one we most often see him using) is his bicycle. Myself, my two main automobiles are 7 and 8 years old. I don't plan on getting new ones until they completely fall apart (which is unlikely as I replace everything as required... will even drop in new engines at half a million or a million kilometers if necessary) or at least become less than completely comfortable.

Heng,

One of the biggest issues I have with nice cars over here, other than the price, poor roads, etc.... is imagine 125K wrapped up in a car that will depriciate so fast, I can't even calcualate that fast.... Then if you get in a wreck.... Poof, all gone.

I used to think a car for 40K was expensive in the US. Now I hear that figure and I think.... Hmm, that is not too bad!

My car in the US, was a pristine BMW M3.... (1995) I bought it for 18K, drove it for 3 years and sold it for 15K with 50,000 miles on it. When I bought it, she was practically new. The fellow had a fleet of sports cars, and so he never used it. I miss it dearly, and if I ever go back I will own one again.

Regarding the marina Post, thank you folks for that info. I thought Thailand had a severe shortage of marinas....

And as far as cars go, I am not talking body panels, I am talking hand built ground up cars. Light weight, like the M12 Noble which has the same V6 as the ford escape, plus twin turbos

[qualtrough]

At the end of the day, the majority of Farang that put money into Thailand will lose.

It's as simple as that, very few make make money on their investment, there are too many things against Farangs.

And long may this myth continue, as it lets others go about making wads of cash doing innovative things here while scaring the others off.

Samran, you are right on the mark, but we shouldn't let them know or there will be more competition!

Edited August 24, 2007 by qualtrough