Phut Issan, Phut Lao, Phut Bangkok

[bina]

First, it would be great if someone would make a collection of colloquiallisms, slang, idioms etc , as using a dictionary is really impossible for most 'active daily living' situations; rather like speaking 'ulpan' hebrew (the lang. taught in class to foreigners) with a falafel kiosk seller with a morroccan (local neighborhood ) background (boys from the 'hood type)....

the 'peeing ' thread was enlightening! as was the poon cement one as i use half of those things during work.... but someone once told me that pronounceing 'poon' incorrectly was something else ; as was misspronouncng the word for snow "hima' ? sorry cant type thai dont know how yet.

second; what are the dialect differences between the various areas in issan? the guys from nongkhai claim the guys from korat dont speak the same etc... i know that phuan thai is a separate dialect (ban chiang area)...

third, is there a dictionary etc for issan thai or is a laos dic. fit exactly; issan dialects are separate from laos lang.? or are they mutually intelligable languages. richard w this is for u probably, no?

[Richard W]

First, it would be great if someone would make a collection of colloquiallisms, slang, idioms etc , as using a dictionary is really impossible for most 'active daily living' situations.

third, is there a dictionary etc for issan thai or is a laos dic. fit exactly; issan dialects are separate from laos lang.? or are they mutually intelligable languages. richard w this is for u probably, no?

That was being done at www.thai-language.com. Unfortunately, the FBI has still not released the web site's contents. I'm trying to resurrect the site, but I am not devote enough time to the activity. I've put some incoherent fragments on-line at my rescue site; the other alternative is to try to use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine

Sorry cant type thai dont know how yet.

How to do so was discussed at ใครสามารถพูดภาษาไทยได้. If you aren't allowed to install programs or change settings, I can make an HTML page using Javascript available so you can type it in. The input options are click on character, Kedmanee keyboard emulation, and my own key-mapping to Thai. I use it during the lunch break at work because we have a very tied-down environment. (There is a 'character map' program available with Windows, e.g. accessible on by all programs, accessories, systems tools, character map, but it's painfully slow - it's probably quicker to use 'insert symbol' in Word!)

second; what are the dialect differences between the various areas in issan?  the guys from nongkhai claim the guys from korat dont speak the same etc... i know that phuan thai is a separate dialect (ban chiang area)...

The tone systems do vary. The merger pattern of 6-tone Vientiane speech is widespread but far from universal. Subdialects of Central and Southern Thai also have differing merger patterns.

The speech of Korat is indeed very different - see the Ethnologue comment on Northeastern Thai.

third, is there a dictionary etc for issan thai or is a laos dic.  fit exactly; issan dialects are separate from laos lang.? or are they mutually intelligable languages.  richard w this is for u probably, no?

Possibly more a question for Sabaijai. Ethnologue, who are great splitters, admit,in their entry for Lao, that Lao and Northeastern Thai form a dialect continuum. I've heard well-to-do Bangkok Thais claim that they can understand Lao, so I don't know the truth of the matter. One of the posters here says that he just uses 'Lao' (i.e. his local Isaan dialect) when he goes to Bangkok, and it suffices.

[Johpa]

I've heard well-to-do Bangkok Thais claim that they can understand Lao, so I don't know the truth of the matter. One of the posters here says that he just uses 'Lao' (i.e. his local Isaan dialect) when he goes to Bangkok, and it suffices.

Using Lao/Isaan may suffice in Bangkok, but these days even English may simply suffice.

I have heard Bangkok folks claim that they can understand Kham Muang (Northern Thai) but have seen these same people falter once they go outside of Chiang Mai city. My son speaks decent Kham Muang. He notes that the Kham Muang he uses in the city is different than the Kham Muang he uses in the rural village with his age mates.

Many years ago we had a major Bangkok politician, Phichai Ratakul, come to our village village looking for land to buy. The land he was interested in is owned by Uey Khiow. So standing in the center of the road is arguably at the time the single most influential politician in Thailand talking to a rice farmer wearing his pakamaa. And trust me, Khun Pichai could not have had the conversation without the help of a translator.

As for Lao/Isaan, in the US I have met many a Bangkok Thai who could follow Lao conversation, but usually they were, like myself, following more the topic of conversation and not the more detailed comments.

[snowleopard]

That was being done at www.thai-language.com. Unfortunately, the FBI has still not released the web site's contents.

Richard!

Could you please elaborate a little on FBI's role and why the Feds are so incredibly interested in this Thai language web-site that they even consider its material classified and won't release it to the public eye!

Are the Feds into studying Thai at their academy in Quantico these days?

Is Thai going to be the next code language after Navaho?

What's the case?

Don't be a chicken!Spill the beans and tell the whole story now!

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

[Richard W]

That was being done at www.thai-language.com. Unfortunately, the FBI has still not released the web site's contents.

Could you please elaborate a little on FBI's role and why the Feds are so incredibly interested in this Thai language web-site that they even consider its material classified and won't release it to the public eye!

See the report of website author's arrest. Glenn was released on bail, and I've not heard anything since beyond what is now appearing at thai-language.com. He had hoped to restore the site this month (July), but the announcement of that hope was withdrawn. I assume he is no longer running an internet server, as www.suphawut.com had to find a new server.

I presume the FBI is holding his computers and their contents as possible evidence. I did worry that donors to the site would be suspected of buying drugs from Glenn, but no-one's come knocking at my door yet.

[sabaijai]

econd; what are the dialect differences between the various areas in issan? the guys from nongkhai claim the guys from korat dont speak the same etc... i know that phuan thai is a separate dialect (ban chiang area)...

third, is there a dictionary etc for issan thai or is a laos dic. fit exactly; issan dialects are separate from laos lang.? or are they mutually intelligable languages. richard w this is for u probably, no?

Thai linguists recognise 19 different dialects of Isan. The US Peace Corps publishes a short Isan-Central Thai dictionary that I believe is based on the Udon dialect.

In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak.

The main differences are in the tones and accent, not the vocabulary although you do hear a few lexical differences from region to region in Laos and I'm sure it must be the same in Isan.

Continuing northwestward, the dialect(s) of Northern Thai spoken in Nan and Chiang Rai are similar to what you find in Sainyabuli (Sayaburi) province in Laos, and if you travel to Luang Prabang you'll hear close links between Luang Prabang Lao and Chiang Mai Thai (kham meuang).

Now that I've studied Lao, I see kham meuang as a more or less a dialect of Lao.

I'd go so far as to say that Lao, Isan Thai and Northern Thai have much more in common with one another than they do with Central Thai.

Of course some of my Northern Thai friends don't like to see their language compared with Lao ...

[meadish_sweetball]

Thai linguists recognise 19 different dialects of Isan. The US Peace Corps publishes a short Isan-Central Thai dictionary that I believe is based on the Udon dialect.

In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak.

The main differences are in the tones and accent, not the vocabulary although you do hear a few lexical differences from region to region in Laos and I'm sure it must be the same in Isan.

Continuing northwestward, the dialect(s) of Northern Thai spoken in Nan and Chiang Rai are similar to what you find in Sainyabuli (Sayaburi) province in Laos, and if you travel to Luang Prabang you'll hear close links between Luang Prabang Lao and Chiang Mai Thai (kham meuang).

Now that I've studied Lao, I see kham meuang as a more or less a dialect of Lao.

I'd go so far as to say that Lao, Isan Thai and Northern Thai have much more in common with one another than they do with Central Thai.

Of course some of my Northern Thai friends don't like to see their language compared with Lao ...

This Lao connection has been my hunch all along. The differing vocabulary in Kham Meuang and even Vientiane Lao are close enough as to suspect a closer relationship.

When I tried to reproduce the "jaao" tone structure of Chiang Mai to Lao people in Vientiane, they told me I sounded like I was from Luang Prabang! Is this similarity because of once being cities of influence within the same kingdom, or due to migrational patterns?

If we look at future development in the Chiang Mai area, however (let's say two-three generations ahead) I think the links to Lao will gradually erode in favour of Central Thai influence (and I do not expect to score a Ph.D. with that thesis, it is just an observation).

I notice a distinct difference between the kham meuang spoken by present-day below-30-year-olds as opposed to that of older Chiang Mai locals - I understand a lot more of what the youngsters say when they use kham meuang amongst themselves, than when their elders do. I also think I can detect that kids change their meuang when they speak to the parent generation...

This is assuming that the Chiang Mai situation will follow what has happened in the south of Sweden, the Scania (Skåne) region - the dialects spoken there are essentially dialects of Danish, but due to a few hundred years of Stockholm Swedish influence, the traces back to Danish have gradually disappeared.

[Richard W]

Continuing northwestward, the dialect(s) of Northern Thai spoken in Nan and Chiang Rai are similar to what you find in Sainyabuli (Sayaburi) province in Laos, and if you travel to Luang Prabang you'll hear close links between Luang Prabang Lao and Chiang Mai Thai (kham meuang).

This Lao connection has been my hunch all along. The differing vocabulary in Kham Meuang and even Vientiane Lao are close enough as to suspect a closer relationship.

When I tried to reproduce the "jaao" tone structure of Chiang Mai to Lao people in Vientiane, they told me I sounded like I was from Luang Prabang! Is this similarity because of once being cities of influence within the same kingdom, or due to migrational patterns?

What do you mean by 'tone structure'?

Jargon:

Luang Prabang has the tone merger A1M=A2, similar to the Kham Mueang A1G=A2 (and identical to the Siamese A1M=A2), whereas Vientiane either distinguishes A1H, A1M and A1L or merges A1H=A1M.

Anglice:

Live syllables starting with a voiced stop and with no tone mark have the same tone as live syllables starting a low consonant and having no tone mark in both the Luang Prabang accent and in Kham Mueang, but in Vientiane they have a different tone, which in some Vietiane accents is the same tone as live syllables with a high consonant and no tone mark. On the other hand, Kham Mueang shows the 5-tone Vientiane treatment of live syllables with no tone mark and starting with an unaspirated voiceless stop.

Could this be what made the Vientiane people think of a Luang Prabang accent?

[meadish_sweetball]

Since I've never studied Kham Meuang in theory, let alone Luang Prabang Lao, I can't really say if this is what it is.

Anyway, as far as I can hear, the Chiang Mai "jaao" is a long, live syllable, and to my ear it sounds like it has a "high falling" tone (which is a layman's description - I just tried to reproduce the tonal shape of when Chiang Mai ladies say "jaao" to a group of Vientiane men).

That is to say, to me it sounds like something in between the high tone and the falling tone of Central Thai, which is my only tonal reference language.

Sorry, but I don't know what the tone codes A1M, A1, A2 and so forth signify.

[Richard W]

Sorry, but I don't know what the tone codes A1M, A1, A2 and so forth signify.

I presented the jargon at Tai Tone Jargon. You can see the tone class letters being used in the summaries of Lao tones indexed from Lao Tones.

[meadish_sweetball]

Ok, as far as I can make out of that tone scheme, 'jaao' is probably a C1ML... but I am not sure about what tone marker would be used - Lanna Thai is written with a script which differs from both that of Central Thai and Standard Lao, and I cannot write this script... and when Central Thais try to represent "jaao" in central Thai writing, I have seen it come out as both เจ๊า and as เจ้า ...

The vowel is normally realized as long, not short, but just like with ค่ะ it depends on the context. A long vowel sound is generally considered as having a 'sweeter' effect (Bangkokians tend to stretch their vowels... especially girls and khatoeys).

It is the female polite particle in Northern Thailand, and the general polite particle in standard Lao (at least this is what I was taught in the less-than-entirely-reliable little white paperback entitled 'Please Speak Lao').

I [/u]think it may stem from [khâaphráphúdtàjâo] (=I, Buddha's humble servant)... but I am not sure.

[Richard W]

Ok, as far as I can make out of that tone scheme, 'jaao' is probably a C1ML... but I am not sure about what tone marker would be used - Lanna Thai is written with a script which differs from both that of Central Thai and Standard Lao, and I cannot write this script... and when Central Thais try to represent "jaao" in central Thai writing, I have seen it come out as both เจ๊า and as เจ้า ...

<Snip>

I think it may stem from [khâaphráphúdtàjâo] (=I, Buddha's humble servant)... but I am not sure.

C1M is indeed the right designation for Central Thai and Lao, but M isn't appropriate because the old voiceless unaspirated stops (e.g. จ) aren't middle consonants in Northern Thai, but high. (They contrast tonewise with the new voiceless unaspirated stops derived from the old voiced consonants, as in the first syllable of Chiangmai.) C1NG would be a better designation, but as far as I am aware the Northern Thai dialects only split the A1 class into different tones.

In point of fact, for a word viewed cross-dialectically, one normally only goes as far as a number for a live syllable, because then the initial consonant gives you the rest of the information, and the relevant split (H v. M, or G v. NG) depends on the dialect. I have not heard of vowel length affecting the tone of a live syllable.

[sOAPBOX]Is the script difference any greater than that between, say, Swedish and German black letters? I don't think it was necessary to make Lao a different script in Unicode, and I notice that the Unicode codepoints for Lao are just Thai values + 128. (I've only checked the consonants with any care.) I appreciate that Lao has two extra consonants and at least one extra vowel symbol.[/sOAPBOX]

I seriously think that trying to write Northern Thai using Central Thai tone rules is a BAD idea. Northern Thai actually has a use for the 'spare' consonants such as ภ - they are aspirated low consonants, whereas the commoner low class stops such as พ are, in Northern Thai, unaspirated voiceless stops.

My wife claims Northern Thais use เจ้า (perhaps one should write เจ้าว) because they are all of royal descent!

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, the Northern Thai language has its own, distinct alphabet, which to my eyes differs a great deal more from Standard Lao (which I can read and decode if I make a real effort) and Central Thai script (which is what I studied at Uni) than the black letters [fraktur] of German from more common Latin language fonts.

I think the Lanna script is Mon-based. It looks more like Burmese writing than Central Thai.

[bina]

COOL, an interesting discussion

first: how to do i buy a dict. from the peace corp?

second: issangate has a site with language but all in thai so useless to me and the guys here have no patience to translate from a computer it doenst interest them in the least

"In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak"

how do they parallel? settled by people from those areas originally?

is it like yiddish is written with hebrew script although a somewhat germanic based language and i can read it w/o understanding a single word? or is it spoken the same but written with different script? they are written with thai script? or not?

are the groups from the different areas ethnically different? i.e. genetically for instance: jews from east europe carry genes for some very nasty diseases (tay sachs, a few others) so when marrying, we do genetic screening before getting pregnant if two people are from same 'ethnic' background ; people from yemenite background carry a gene for deafness and sickle cell of a particular type; kurdistan jews have a problem with some enzyme found in fava beans and also in anesthetic....obviously in this day and age its all mix and match but from a mile away u can see a cuchin indian is different from casablance yemenite --bone structure, facial type, hair colour and eye colour, etc.... ...

do the people in each area consider themselves 'different' in behavior, codes, dress, for marriage, etc. or is this just academic ? in other words, do the differences show up in music, humor (jokes along the lines of : there was a morroccan, a galiciani and a persian in a boat...) in ban chiang i noticed a lot of children w/down syndrome or other type of retardation as they seem to marry within their 'group'....

if anybody is clearing out their bookshelves from uni. studies and have any used books from studies that they want to donate to me i'm willing to accept them

have copied all info down into file to reread later; richard it takes me forever to decipher the liguistics definitions, etc. sabaijai, and meadish good info

[Richard W]

"In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak"

how do they parallel? settled by people from those areas originally?

While the Mekong may be an easy border to define in a treaty, rivers actually serve as channels of communication, and thus join people rather than separate them. Sabiajai is pointing out that the distinction between a Lao dialect and a Northeastern dialect is simply a political designation. The toing and froing of people across the river, including changes of residence, was one of the arguments the French used to annex the Laotian provinces on the Thai side of the river.

is it like yiddish is written with hebrew script although a somewhat germanic based language and i can read it w/o understanding a single word? or is it spoken the same but written with different script? they are written with thai script?  or not?

In Thailand the Thai script is used; in Laos the Lao script is used. To a very large extent the two scripts are just two different styles. As to the dialects, German probably provides a good analogy. Thai has added one consonant since the traditions diverged; Lao has added two and has deleted the redundant consonants. There are differences in the vowels, and Lao has discarded the notion of inherent vowels. See the article copied to the Rosetta Project for details.

[Neeranam]

COOL, an interesting discussion

first: how to do i buy a dict. from the peace corp?

I'd like a copy too. Anyone know?

[bina]

"While the Mekong may be an easy border to define in a treaty, rivers actually serve as channels of communication, and thus join people rather than separate them. Sabiajai is pointing out that the distinction between a Lao dialect and a Northeastern dialect is simply a political designation. The toing and froing of people across the river, including changes of residence, was one of the arguments the French used to annex the Laotian provinces on the Thai side of the river"

ugh.... guess i'll have to go find some history books too ; in this case, youre right about the river maybe; however, in desert countries, the river becomes a point of contention and separation since one side guards the their claim to the river, the toing and froing becomes physically limited as well.

its funny, actually, living in the states, i never even saw a border between countries and as a small child thought that one would see a line on the ground of demarkation;only later learning that mountains, rivers valleys are well used border demarkations that many times cause political social and cultural havoc; living in israel, the borders are very very clearly marked!! and boy do we have havoc!

although there is no move by nongkhai villagers to return to 'homelands'?! or re-annex? or, they were there originally, and thailand came along later sort of like in the serbia/hungarian border where the main language and culture is: hungarian due to arbitrary border moves during and after WWII; and they are 2nd class in serbia in an unofficial but very noticable way.

[Richard W]

"The toing and froing of people across the river, including changes of residence, was one of the arguments the French used to annex the Laotian provinces on the Thai side of the river"

although there is no move by nongkhai villagers to return to 'homelands'?! or re-annex? or, they were there originally, and thailand came along later sort of like in the serbia/hungarian border where the main language and culture is: hungarian due to arbitrary border moves during and after WWII; and they are 2nd class in serbia in an unofficial but very noticable way.

These Laotian provinces briefly returned to Thailand during the Second World War, along with parts of Cambodia that Thailand had annexed when suzerainty over Cambodia was reasserted by the Rattankosin dynasty. (I'm not sure of the date; it could have been as early as the reign of King Taksin.)

Most of Thailand has a mixture of Thai (the ethnos) and Mon-Khmer peoples, though the latter are being absorbed. Generally, speakers of S.W. and Central Tai languages regard themselves as Thai, whether they pronounce their ethnonym as Thai or Tai (e.g. the Dai of China). It hasn't stopped them fighting one another, but then the West Saxon conquest of the Isle of Wight from the Jutes (one of the three English tribes) by (Saint!) Caedwalla (/ Ceadwalla / Cædwalla) (patron saint of murderers) is described as murderous in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

The ethnographical situation has also been made complex by repopulation efforts after the devastation of the Thai-Burmese wars. Some areas of Laos were depopulated when their inhabitants were deported to Thailand.

[sabaijai]

COOL, an interesting discussion

first: how to do i buy a dict. from the peace corp?

second: issangate has a site with language but all in thai so useless to me and the guys here have no patience to translate from a computer it doenst interest them in the least

"In a more general manner of speaking the differing Isan dialects parallel the dialects of Lao found on the other side of the Mekong, thus Nong Khai and Udon Thani Isan sounds very much like Vientiane Lao, Mukdahan follows Savannakhet and Ubon Ratchathani follows Pakse/Champasak"

how do they parallel?  settled by people from those areas originally? 

is it like yiddish is written with hebrew script although a somewhat germanic based language and i can read it w/o understanding a single word? or is it spoken the same but written with different script? they are written with thai script?  or not?

are the groups from the different areas ethnically different? i.e. genetically for instance: jews from east europe carry genes for some very nasty diseases (tay sachs, a few others) so when marrying, we do genetic screening  before getting pregnant if two people are from same 'ethnic' background ; people from yemenite  background carry a gene for deafness and sickle cell of a particular type; kurdistan jews have a problem with some enzyme found in fava beans and also in anesthetic....obviously in this day and age its all mix and match but from a mile away u can see a cuchin indian is different from casablance yemenite --bone structure, facial type, hair colour and eye colour, etc.... ...

do the people in each area consider themselves 'different' in behavior, codes, dress, for marriage, etc. or is this just academic ?  in other words, do the differences show up in music, humor (jokes along the lines of : there was a morroccan, a galiciani and a persian in a boat...) in ban chiang i noticed a lot of children w/down syndrome or other type of retardation as they seem to marry within their 'group'....

if anybody is clearing out their bookshelves from uni. studies and have any used books from studies that they want to donate to me    i'm willing to accept them

have copied all info down into file to reread later; richard it takes me forever to decipher the liguistics definitions, etc.  sabaijai, and meadish good info

Try contacting the Bangkok Peace Corps office directly to see if they'll sell or give you the Isan-Thai dictionary. I've seen the contact address & phone somewhere on the Web, so Google around a bit and you should be able to find it.

Richard W's explanation of the connections between Vientiane & Udon, etc are solid.

Lao script is much easier to learn than Thai since it has fewer consonants and is more phonetically written, eg all Sanskrit or Pali words are written exactly as they're pronounced in Lao rather than spelt out in an attempt to echo the original Sanskrit or Pali. Also there are no unwritten vowels. I'm glad I learnt Thai first and studied Lao later, as I'd probably have been discouraged going from the ease of written Lao to the relative complexity of written Thai.

On the other hand learning spoken Lao has its own challenges, the main one being that native Lao tend to disagree as to what constitutes 'standard Lao'.

[Johpa]

The ethnographical situation has also been made complex by repopulation efforts after the devastation of the Thai-Burmese wars. Some areas of Laos were depopulated when their inhabitants were deported to Thailand.

As was explained to me during my university days, and an explanation that I find makes sense, the historic wars in the region were fought for population more than for land. Land was aplenty and it was only quite recently, in historical terms, that the land frontier in the region was finally expolited. Thus what rulers needed to increase wealth was not additional lands but additional populations to work the land and generate additional surplus or additional corvee labor. Thus victors in the various wars would often relocate populations closer to their centers of power where the population could be better controlled. The result is plenty of local dialects throughout Thailand, especially up north. One of the best examples is the Tai dialect/language of Yong spoken in the Lamphun area which is, I have been told, related to a Tai language spoken quite a bit to the north of present day Thailand.