Any time the subject of anti-Zionist Jews comes up, you have to remember some people who are considered Jewish by ancestry, either by themselves or others, have never practiced the Jewish religion. Consequently, they don't regard Israel as their homeland and find it easy to demonstrate against the Israeli government or even oppose the existence of Israel.

I know Americans who would be regarded as Jews under Israel's Law of Return because they had Jewish grandparents, but neither their parents or themselves have ever been members of a synagogue or attended services in one. They are basically agnostics who don't follow any organized religion.

It's technically correct to call them anti-Zionist Jews but it's more accurate to say they are non-practicing Jews who oppose Zionism. The number of Jews who practice Judaism but actively reject Zionism is very small.

19 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Wherever you find Jews, you will find Jews against Zionism and Israel’s wars. Their websites can be found online.

AFRICA

• South African Jews for a Free Palestine (SAJFP)

AUSTRALIA

• Jewish Council of Australia in Australia

CANADA & MÉXICO

• Independent Jewish Voices in the United Kingdom and Canada

• Jews for Palestine in Mexico

• Neturei Karta in Canada, Germany, Israel, Palestine, the United Kingdom and United States

EUROPE

•  Een Ander Joods Geluid in the Netherlands

• European Jews for a Just Peace European network, present in 11 countries

• International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network based in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Argentina, Spain and Germany

• Jewdas in the United Kingdom

• Jews for Justice for Palestinians in the United Kingdom

• Union des progressistes juifs de Belgique

INDEPENDENT

• Judaism On Our Own Terms

ISRAEL

• Anarchists Against the Wall in Israel

• Edah HaChareidis in Israel

• Jerusalem Faction in Israel

• Mishkenos HoRoim in Israel

• Radical Bloc in Israel

• Shomer Emunim in Israel

• Sikrikim in Israel

SOUTH AMERICA

• Judies X Palestina (Jews for Palestine) in Argentina

• Vozes Judaicas por Libertacao (Jewish Voices for Liberation) in Brazil

USA

• American Council for Judaism in the United States

• Jewish Voice for Peace in the United States

• Malachim in the United States

• Satmar in the United States

• Torah Jews in the United States & international

Traitors, or masochists who dream of concentration camps.

21 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Wherever you find Jews, you will find Jews against Zionism and Israel’s wars. Their websites can be found online.

AFRICA

• South African Jews for a Free Palestine (SAJFP)

AUSTRALIA

• Jewish Council of Australia in Australia

CANADA & MÉXICO

• Independent Jewish Voices in the United Kingdom and Canada

• Jews for Palestine in Mexico

• Neturei Karta in Canada, Germany, Israel, Palestine, the United Kingdom and United States

EUROPE

•  Een Ander Joods Geluid in the Netherlands

• European Jews for a Just Peace European network, present in 11 countries

• International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network based in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Argentina, Spain and Germany

• Jewdas in the United Kingdom

• Jews for Justice for Palestinians in the United Kingdom

• Union des progressistes juifs de Belgique

INDEPENDENT

• Judaism On Our Own Terms

ISRAEL

• Anarchists Against the Wall in Israel

• Edah HaChareidis in Israel

• Jerusalem Faction in Israel

• Mishkenos HoRoim in Israel

• Radical Bloc in Israel

• Shomer Emunim in Israel

• Sikrikim in Israel

SOUTH AMERICA

• Judies X Palestina (Jews for Palestine) in Argentina

• Vozes Judaicas por Libertacao (Jewish Voices for Liberation) in Brazil

USA

• American Council for Judaism in the United States

• Jewish Voice for Peace in the United States

• Malachim in the United States

• Satmar in the United States

• Torah Jews in the United States & international

So are you saying you are anti-semetic.?

29 minutes ago, papa al said:

So are you saying you are anti-semetic.?

No he's "anti-Zionist" wink wink nod nod.

Obsessively so with a special interest in Jew washing.

2 hours ago, Peter Crow said:

Traitors, or masochists who dream of concentration camps.

Honestly I think Jews and only Jews have any agency to opine on whether Jews have a right to a Jewish majority nation state.

The overwhelming majority said yes before Israel existed and still.say yes.

So a minority say no. Fine.

The only safe place for Jewry.

Israel II after Israel I implodes.

If any are left to need a new Homeland.

Brrrrrrrr. 🙂

2 hours ago, Peter Crow said:

Traitors, or masochists who dream of concentration camps.

A lot of the "Jews" who are members of anti-Zionist and anti-Israel protest groups are Jewish by ancestry only and have never practiced the Jewish faith. Aside from having a parent or grandparent who had been Jewish, they don't identify with Judaism in any other form.

That said, there are many observant Jews who disagree with and oppose the policies of the current Israeli government. These Jews generally don't join groups that call for the destruction of Israel.

A small number of truly "Jew-hating Jews" do exist and thereby gain a high degree of visibility as opponents of Zionism and Israel. They consider Judaism to be a form of "white supremacy" in line with the tenets of critical race theory. By denouncing Judaism, they hope to be acknowledged as anti-racist and "allies" of Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC). That automatically puts them in the pro-Palestinian camp.

Edited May 23May 23 by Evil Penevil

12 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

Any time the subject of anti-Zionist Jews comes up, you have to remember some people who are considered Jewish by ancestry, either by themselves or others, have never practiced the Jewish religion. Consequently, they don't regard Israel as their homeland and find it easy to demonstrate against the Israeli government or even oppose the existence of Israel.

I know Americans who would be regarded as Jews under Israel's Law of Return because they had Jewish grandparents, but neither their parents or themselves have ever been members of a synagogue or attended services in one. They are basically agnostics who don't follow any organized religion.

It's technically correct to call them anti-Zionist Jews but it's more accurate to say they are non-practicing Jews who oppose Zionism. The number of Jews who practice Judaism but actively reject Zionism is very small.

Oooh, Ev, this is rather beneath your high standards. Neither you not I know the membership of any of these groups. All we know is that half of the world's Jews would prefer not to live in Israel which means it is extremely likely they don't regard Israel as their homeland, either.

1 hour ago, papa al said:

So are you saying you are anti-semetic.?

Just anti-Zionist. Racism works both ways.

1 minute ago, Packer said:

The only safe place for Jewry.

Israel II after Israel I implodes.

If any are left to need a new Homeland.

Brrrrrrrr. 🙂

Troll racist Jew hating garbage that you keep repeating ad nauseum

That was a Stalin scheme to try to make Sovirt Jews disappear to a garbage area of backwater land in the far east.

It wasn't even successful under Stalin.

Now there are pnly a small number of Jews left there..

It doesn't attract new Russian Jews today.

Even with yoir Israel ending fantasy which is truly perverted only Jews with Russian citizenship could flee to anywhere in Russia.

Edited May 23May 23 by Jingthing

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Honestly I think Jews and only Jews have any agency to opine on whether Jews have a right to a Jewish majority nation state.

What absolute hogwash.

That's like saying only alcoholics have a right of opinion on whether a town should have bars and shops selling alcohol.

Or only fatties having the right to decide if school lunches should include donuts and ice cream.

Or only prisoners having the right to opine about there being early release programs or not.

But Jewry says that only Jews should be allowed do this, only Jews should be allowed do that. We get it. 🙂

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Honestly I think Jews and only Jews have any agency to opine on whether Jews have a right to a Jewish majority nation state.

The overwhelming majority said yes before Israel existed and still.say yes.

So a minority say no. Fine.

And much of that minority listed does not live in Israel anyway. I define any nation governed by religion to be a theocracy. Those Israelis who attended the Peace Summit, the conscientious objectors, are outliers to the brainwashed majority militarists.

I avoid comparing Israel to WWII Germany. But in this instance, I think both societies created a hypermilitarised state which could do no wrong. We all saw where that led.

1 minute ago, unblocktheplanet said:

And much of that minority listed does not live in Israel anyway. I define any nation governed by religion to be a theocracy. Those Israelis who attended the Peace Summit, the conscientious objectors, are outliers to the brainwashed majority militarists.

I avoid comparing Israel to WWII Germany. But in this instance, I think both societies created a hypermilitarised state which could do no wrong. We all saw where that led.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group.

Not only about religion.

3 minutes ago, Packer said:

What absolute hogwash.

That's like saying only alcoholics have a right of opinion on whether a town should have bars and shops selling alcohol.

Or only fatties having the right to decide if school lunches should include donuts and ice cream.

Or only prisoners having the right to opine about there being early release programs or not.

But Jewry says that only Jews should be allowed do this, only Jews should be allowed do that. We get it. 🙂

Only Thai people have agency on whether Thailand should exist.

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

a garbage area of backwater land

When Israel implodes once funding is cut to almost nothing and Jewry are the minority, do you want a Jew homeland or not?

Don't forget to bring the woolly socks. 🙂

2 minutes ago, Packer said:

When Israel implodes once funding is cut to almost nothing and Jewry are the minority, do you want a Jew homeland or not?

Don't forget to bring the woolly socks. 🙂

Just stop it you insufferable troll.

That was a failed Stalinist scheme.

Even in.the event of your racist Jew hating pipe dream of Israel ending came true, Russia would never invite all Jews to Russia anyway.

Edited May 23May 23 by Jingthing

Jews can be Israeli, Israeli's can be Jews, anyone can convert to Judaism, Jews can be against Zionism, Zionists are not all Jewish, antizionism is not illegal, being an antizionist against Israel is not illegal, Israel is breaking International Law as of this moment in time, are and has done since its inception. I am against Israel doing this.

Discuss.

7 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

A lot of the "Jews" who are members of the anti-Zionist and anti-Israel protest groups are Jewish by ancestry only and have never practiced the Jewish faith. Aside from having a parent or grandparent who had been Jewish, they don't identify with Judaism in any other form.

That said, there are many observant Jews who disagree with and oppose the policies of the current Israeli government. These Jews generally don't join groups that call for the destruction of Israel.

A small number of truly "Jew-hating Jews" do exist and thereby gain a high degree of visibility as opponents of Zionism and Israel. They consider Judaism to be a form of "white supremacy" in line with the tennets of critical race theory. By denouncing Judaism, they hope to be acknowledged as anti-racist and "allies" of Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC). That automatically puts them in the pro-Palestinian camp.

This is a factor I did not consider. Perhaps some Jews as non-white Semites identify to support people of colour in other struggles.

I think you place too much emphasis on observance, Ev. I know I come from Lutherans. I assume it is the same for Jews. And that makes me somehow less Lutheran or them less Jewish?

To be completely honest, my views regarding the State of Israel change from day to day. Some days I am really furious and think that Israel has squandered its right to be a Jewish homeland. Most days, I just think there needs to be 1948 equality. That's pretty much my bottom line.

If Israelis, or Palestinians, can't get to that point and prefer endless war, I don't see a real point having a homeland.

What people, particularly Jingthing, mistake is that there is only one purpose to Zionism--to preserve a Jewish homeland in Palestine. (Some may object to Palestine but that's what the Brits used.)

The second purpose of Zionism is to have as few Arabs as possible in this homeland by whatever means. So far those means have all been violent, from HaShoMer to the Nakba to Gaza to the West Bank.

I notice neither you nor Jing lives in Israel, though you may be dualies. I presume this is because of the paucity and aggression of checkpoints, roadblocks and identity checks.

And I doubt very much whether either of you would choose a home in the Worst Bank and using your neighbour for target practice.

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Troll racist Jew hating garbage that you keep repeating as nauseum

That was a Stalin scheme to try to make Sovirt Jews disappear to a garbage area of la d in the far east.

It wasn't even successful under Stalin.

Now there are a small numbers of Jews left.

It doesn't attract new Russian Jews today.

Even with yoir Israel ending fantasy which is truly perverted only Jews with Russian citizenship could flee to anywhere in Russia.

Reportedly, 50-100,000 Jews have returned to Russia from Israel. Would Russia welcome more? IDK and neither do you. 132k Jews live in Russia today, few of them in the JAO. I assume those returning are not headed for Siberia, either!

Are there modern pogroms, modern discrimination? Are Jewish boys conscripted into the Russian military (thank Goddess, at least not the girls!)?

Russian Jews were discriminated against in Israel. They felt they'd never fit in. But they're going to have an equally hard time fitting in in Russia again. At least many Russians are not hypermilitarised by the state.

14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Jews can be Israeli, Israeli's can be Jews, anyone can convert to Judaism, Jews can be against Zionism, Zionists are not all Jewish, antizionism is not illegal, being an antizionist against Israel is not illegal, Israel is breaking International Law as of this moment in time, are and has done since its inception. I am against Israel doing this.

Discuss.

Zionism has nothing to do with support or not support for Israeli government actions and policies.

They are separate things. You are another obsessive "anti-Zionist" that is play acting willful ignorance about that.

True that you don't need to be a Jew to be pro Zionist.

Most American pro Zionists are not Jews.

True being an Israel and being a Jew are separate things.

True it is possible to convert to Judaism but that is a very hard thing to do taking dedication and time.

Jews do NOT proselytize. Judaism is very different than Christianity and Islam in that way.

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Russia would never invite all Jews to Russia anyway.

Will there be many left? 🙂

2 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Reportedly, 50-100,000 Jews have returned to Russia from Israel. Would Russia welcome more? IDK and neither do you. 132k Jews live in Russia today, few of them in the JAO. I assume those returning are not headed for Siberia, either!

Are there modern pogroms, modern discrimination? Are Jewish boys conscripted into the Russian military (thank Goddess, at least not the girls!)?

Russian Jews were discriminated against in Israel. They felt they'd never fit in. But they're going to have an equally hard time fitting in in Russia again. At least many Russians are not hypermilitarised by the state.

Stop trolling. Russia allows any and all Russian citizens dual or otherwise back to Russia. Of course some of them they'll welcome back just to put them in prison or send them to the meat grinder.

Russian Jews who made Aliyah to Israel did so by choice just like any other rule of return Jews. To portray Russia Jews as persecuted in Israel is totally laughable,

All immigrant groups face challenges to any country in the world.

There is zero chance that the historic far east Jewish oblast will be revived.

Returning Russian Jews from any nation do not go there. They go where it makes sense for them to personally anywhere in Russia.

There is zero chance that Russia would welcome all global Jews to Russia in the event of an Israel collapse.

Edited May 23May 23 by Jingthing

35 minutes ago, Packer said:

What absolute hogwash.

That's like saying only alcoholics have a right of opinion on whether a town should have bars and shops selling alcohol.

Or only fatties having the right to decide if school lunches should include donuts and ice cream.

Or only prisoners having the right to opine about there being early release programs or not.

But Jewry says that only Jews should be allowed do this, only Jews should be allowed do that. We get it. 🙂

35 minutes ago, Packer said:

What absolute hogwash.

That's like saying only alcoholics have a right of opinion on whether a town should have bars and shops selling alcohol.

Or only fatties having the right to decide if school lunches should include donuts and ice cream.

Or only prisoners having the right to opine about there being early release programs or not.

But Jewry says that only Jews should be allowed do this, only Jews should be allowed do that. We get it. 🙂

You seem to be taking offence to the word "allowed". I must be reading it in a different context that you.

Jews in Israel certainly have the right to decide if the Jewish homeland is desirable. Why not? Home is where the heart is.

Iran & Pakistan have the right to ban alcohol. Dieticians should be deciding school lunches. And prisoners have no rights to decide anything!

Of course, that's only the opinion of a wink-wink, sleazy lying racist troll liar posting straw man garbage. Next.

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Only Thai people have agency on whether Thailand should exist.

Oh, (clutching pearls with winced expression because panties are so twisted), where would I go??? Not Canada...nor Siberia!

1 minute ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Oh, (clutching pearls with winced expression because panties are so twisted), where would I go??? Not Canada...nor Siberia!

Are you having a senior moment?

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Zionism has nothing to do with support or not support for Israeli government actions and policies.

They are separate things. You are another obsessive "anti-Zionist" that is play acting willful ignorance about that.

True that you don't need to be a Jew to be pro Zionist.

Most American pro Zionists are not Jews.

True being an Israel and being a Jew are separate things.

True it is possible to convert to Judaism but that is a very hard thing to do taking dedication and time.

Jews do NOT proselytize. Judaism is very different than Christianity and Islam in that way.

"True that you don't need to be a Jew to be pro Zionist. Most American pro Zionists are not Jews."

Very true. It is likely Xian Zionists outnumber Jewish Zionists.

1 minute ago, unblocktheplanet said:

"True that you don't need to be a Jew to be pro Zionist. Most American pro Zionists are not Jews."

Very true. It is likely Xian Zionists outnumber Jewish Zionists.

It is definite.

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Are you having a senior moment?

My senior movements usually occur before breakfast. It was you who brought up Thais having the right to dissolve the Thai state. (Watch out for 112 or you'll get a pizza!)

8 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Oooh, Ev, this is rather beneath your high standards. Neither you not I know the membership of any of these groups. All we know is that half of the world's Jews would prefer not to live in Israel which means it is extremely likely they don't regard Israel as their homeland, either.

Actually, I do know some of the members of U.S.-based anti-Zionist groups and their backgrounds are as I have described them. It's also possible to recognize the ideology of other "anti-Jew Jews" through their public statements.

Many Jews may not want to live in Israel, but they still regard Israel as the homeland and ultimate haven for the world's Jews. A lot of Jews prefer to live in the U.S., Canada, Australia, U.K., etc. because life in those countries is more comfortable on a daily basis and offers more job and economic opportunities.

Many Jews, especially secular Jews, don't speak much Hebrew and don't want to learn more than they already know. In today's world, it's more convenient to travel on a passport other than Israeli. And for the most part, life is more secure in Western democracies than in Israel.

None of that, however, changes the fact that Jews who choose not to live in Israel still have a strong affinity with Israel.

11 minutes ago, Packer said:

The only safe place for Jewry.

Israel II after Israel I implodes.

If any are left to need a new Homeland.

Brrrrrrrr. 🙂

Any suggestion that the Jewish Autonomous Region (Oblast) could become an alternative to Israel as the homeland of the world's Jews is absurd piss-taking. It's the reddest of herrings and most stalk-filled of straw men.

As @Jingthing pointed out, the JAR was a proposal by Stalin that failed in the 1930s. Stalin had seen it as a new home for Soviet Jews who had been deprived of their livelihoods by the Communist revolution, but that proved impossible. Ethnic Russians always outnumbered Jews by a wide majority.

Today less than 1,000 Jews live there and the Russian government would never allow any mass-migration by non-Russian Jews.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Yiddish-language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Edited May 23May 23 by Evil Penevil

23 hours ago, Jingthing said:

How do you define Zionism?

I define it as support for the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state with political self determination.

By that definition the vast majority of global Jews are NOT anti-Zionist.

I make that distinction because they may not identify as Zionist but if they support the basic right mentioned they are certainly not ANTI-Zionist.

Totally different than support of Israeli government actions and policies.

My opinion is that ONLY Jews have agency to be against Zionism and it's not the business of non-Jews to tell Jews they're not allowed their own nation state any more than it would be business of non-Thais to tell Thai that or non-Japanese to tell Japanese that.

An exception might be weirdos who are AGAINST any and all nation states.

But being against the existence of the one and only tiny Jewish state and no other states is clearly racist Jew hatred unless you're a Jew that has agency on that matter.

Anyone can define a Ham Sandwich anyway they want.

This is the nature of language, and especially formal logic.

The question is how do most people define the term, not only you.

I am not advocating you eat ham, unless it is Kosher ham.

I am not even advocating for the RIGHT to eat a ham sandwich.

However, if we are to communicate with our fellows, we must strive to understand the common definition of the words we use.