Thai Citizenship

[TheChiefJustice]

For those of you who may be interested in applying for Thai citizenship, the previous requirement that a male applicant must have PR for 5 years before applying has been abolished. The new requirement is that the applicant must have PR and must have been in Thailand continuously for not less than 5 years under a non-immigrant visa category before applying for citizenship. The change means that anyone with PR, irrespective of how long you have had it, can apply for citizenship if they have been here on proper visas for not less than 5 years and meet the other qualifications for citizenship. Other threads on this board list the various qualifications.

This obviously applies to foreign men only. Foreign women do not need PR before making an application for Thai citizenship.

[skippybangkok]

Interesting indeed.

[simon43]

Hi - Can you please provide your source for this interesting information?

Simon

[TheChiefJustice]

You may contact the Special Branch of the Royal Thai Police in Bangkok for further information. The telephone number is 02 252-1714 หรือ 02 252-2708.

[samran]

interesting.

I understand that this current government has been processing the backlog of applications that were not granted under the former reign of Deal Leader. Seems like they are trying to leave a bit of a positive legacy here too.

[samran]

So rule four on this information that I got from them late last year is no longer applicable...

[mahjongguy]

Yes, very interesting. Any such improvements to the PR and citizenship processes are interesting. They give a tiny ray of hope that maybe someday those on retirement visas may be able to participate.

But, depending on a person's exact history, this particular change may only shorten the path to citizenship by a couple of years, right? Which is still for the good, I realize.

[younghusband]

interesting.

I understand that this current government has been processing the backlog of applications that were not granted under the former reign of Deal Leader. Seems like they are trying to leave a bit of a positive legacy here too.

I would like to think you are being ironical but I have a feeling you might be completely serious.Beyond all comment.

[lopburi3]

A look at the story in the Bangkok Post today about a relaxation of citizenship rules being rejected by the government might be in order.

[CosmicSurfer]

I can't find this Story in the Bangkok Post web site.

Do you know the link?

Thanks

CS

[lopburi3]

It was in the print version today - don't know if on web or not. Basic was current proposed legislation rejected but hopefully there will be follow up to make an acceptable package.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

I can't find this Story in the Bangkok Post web site.

Do you know the link?

Thanks

CS

Here it be, from the www site.  You might just have checked too early on, they're somewhat later in updating the www site than the Nation.

Mac

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/30Aug2007_news14.php

Cabinet to review new naturalisation laws

Initial draft rejected by govt for being too soft

ANJIRA ASSAVANONDA

The Ministry of Social Development and Human Security is gearing up to submit its own version of a new Nationality Bill to the cabinet after the original proposal put forward by the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) was rejected due to national security concerns. Somchai Charoen-umnuaisuk, deputy director of the Bureau of Welfare Promotion and Protection of Children, Youth, the Disadvantaged, Persons with Disabilities and Older Persons, said the ministry expected to finish the draft bill and tender it to the cabinet within the next month.

The bill, which is an amendment of the 1965 Nationality Act, will ease restrictions for people applying for Thai nationality.

The NLA draft proposed by former Chiang Rai senator Tuenjai Deetes failed to clear the cabinet, which argued that the rules and regulations determining the granting of Thai nationality needed careful consideration.

The military-appointed government criticised the proposed bill for being too soft. The cabinet said the bill went too far in reducing regulations for naturalisation, making it easier for aliens to seek Thai citizenship, which it said could pose concerns to national security.

The Social Development and Human Security Ministry yesterday held a public forum to listen to opinions on its version of the draft bill.

Most participants agreed the ministry's version was not that different from the NLA's original. It grants Thai citizenship to anybody born to a Thai father or mother both inside and outside of Thailand and gives equal rights to foreign males and females to apply for Thai nationality if they are married to a Thai.

The bill also allows all Thai citizens to ask for citizenship for their adopted non-Thai children.

Justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul, who is also vice-chairman of a government panel to improve legislation related to the rights of children, said a new nationality bill was necessary as existing laws were outdated.

Under the old law, for example, the legality of marital status of the parents is a determining factor whether a child will be granted citizenship.

''Children of illegal migrant parents also don't get Thai nationality even though they were born on Thai soil. That's the wrong principle,'' said Mr Jarun.

Hongping Yiu, a 16-year-old stateless girl who participated in the forum, said she had high hopes that the new bill, if accepted, would change her life.

Hongping was adopted by Thai parents after she was abandoned as a baby by her biological Chinese parents. She is studying in Mattayom 5 at a Thai school and even though she has been raised in a Thai family since she was a baby, Hongping has been unable to get Thai citizenship.

''When I go to enrol in schools, I have to use the house registration document to present to the schools. I still don't have an ID card. When the school organised an overseas trip, I couldn't go because I don't have a Thai passport,'' she said.

''I want to be Thai. I want to live a life like any other Thai person in this country,'' said Hongping.

Mr Somchai said the ministry will take into account every comment from the forum in its review of the draft bill.

Ms Tuenjai Deetes, who spearheaded the original NLA draft, said she will ask the assembly to set up a special committee to consider and make adjustments to the bill.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[TheChiefJustice]

So rule four on this information that I got from them late last year is no longer applicable...

Correct, Samran. That information in clause 4 is no longer applicable. Also, the discussions on the Nationality Act have nothing to do with the regulations relating to the acquisition of citizenship. The Nationality Act is the framework only - it is the regulations promulgated by the Interior Ministry which are more relevant to us as these serve to implement the Act. The only change to those regulations in late May 2007 at an Interior Ministry meeting was to do away with the requirement that an applicant must hold PR for 5 years before making an application. The applicant still needs to have PR, but the as long as you are able to satsify the 5 continuous years on proper visas, theoretically you could apply on the day after you obtain your PR. I have been informed by the Special Branch that this change means that the law has now returned to the way that it was once drafted.

I understand from my contacts at the Special Branch that a number of persons have already applied for citizenship under the new rules. My suggestion for anyone interested is to go down to the Special Branch and discuss it with them.

Edited August 30, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[samran]

interesting.

I understand that this current government has been processing the backlog of applications that were not granted under the former reign of Deal Leader. Seems like they are trying to leave a bit of a positive legacy here too.

I would like to think you are being ironical but I have a feeling you might be completely serious.Beyond all comment.

progress and reform come slow. The fact that it is has relaxed the rules is always a huge step meaning that the wait time is cut down by at least three years for those go 3 years to PR with tax and the 2 on PR with tax gets them to citizenship. It opens up Thai citizenship as a realistic goal for 100's if not 1000's of expat workers here in a similar timeframe it takes to get say, British Nationality. Not something to be sniggered at.

Dunno what you were expecting...maybe a red carpet for you and a shiny brown Thai PP waiting for you when you disembarked at the airport?

[younghusband]

interesting.

I understand that this current government has been processing the backlog of applications that were not granted under the former reign of Deal Leader. Seems like they are trying to leave a bit of a positive legacy here too.

I would like to think you are being ironical but I have a feeling you might be completely serious.Beyond all comment.

progress and reform come slow. The fact that it is has relaxed the rules is always a huge step meaning that the wait time is cut down by at least three years for those go 3 years to PR with tax and the 2 on PR with tax gets them to citizenship. It opens up Thai citizenship as a realistic goal for 100's if not 1000's of expat workers here in a similar timeframe it takes to get say, British Nationality. Not something to be sniggered at.

Dunno what you were expecting...maybe a red carpet for you and a shiny brown Thai PP waiting for you when you disembarked at the airport?

You are profoundly mistaken I'm afraid.Firstly the relaxation of the rules has been muted for some time: I was told about it by my legal advisor over three years ago.Secondly the indications are that the military junta is opposed to any relaxation of the rules, at least according to the report in today's Bangkok Post - a response that I do not find surprising from this insular and incompetent government and which would tie in with the petulant xenophobia many on this forum have noted.Your comment on a "positive legacy" is simply inexplicable.Personally I received PR several years ago and have no interest in citizenship, but hopefully when this lamentable government has disappeared it will be possible to see some progress in easing the path to citizenship for those who seek it.To date there is nothing of substance to report at all.

[TheChiefJustice]

Well, irrespective of your views, younghusband, the Interior Ministry regulations have been amended as I have indicated. The amendment significantly reduces the amount of time a foreign male would otherwise need to wait before making an application for citizenship. As such, the amendment is one of substance in favor of the applicant.

Edited August 30, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[younghusband]

Well, irrespective of your views, younghusband, the Interior Ministry regulations have been amended as I have indicated. The amendment significantly reduces the amount of time a foreign male would otherwise need to wait before making an application for citizenship. As such, the amendment is one of substance in favor of the applicant.

I stand corrected but it surely doesn't reflect -one way or another -on the junta's agenda.

[midas]

How do the Thai authorities deal with applications from people

who already have dual citizenship from 2 other countries ?

in other words will they allow you to have triple citizenship

[otton]

progress and reform come slow. The fact that it is has relaxed the rules is always a huge step meaning that the wait time is cut down by at least three years for those go 3 years to PR with tax and the 2 on PR with tax gets them to citizenship. It opens up Thai citizenship as a realistic goal for 100's if not 1000's of expat workers here in a similar timeframe it takes to get say, British Nationality. Not something to be sniggered at.

Dunno what you were expecting...maybe a red carpet for you and a shiny brown Thai PP waiting for you when you disembarked at the airport?

Instead of the red carpet no one is asking for, what about the abolition of the 100 PRs per nationality per year which the UK doesn't have and the lowering of the absurdly high limits and unrealistic conditions placed on PR which the UK doesn't have and the introduction of provisions for spouses and parents of Thai citizens to easily grant them at least PR if not citizenship which the UK does have?

PR is still a prerequisite for citizenship and the limits and conditions for getting PR are still exactly the same so getting PR and citizenship still is, for most of us, as "unrealistic" as ever...

Comparing in any way, shape or form Thai immigration laws with British or any other Western country's immigration laws is ludicrous.

[grtaylor]

Comparing in any way, shape or form Thai immigration laws with British or any other Western country's immigration laws is ludicrous.

So, perhaps we should compare like with like.

How easy is it to get nationality in say, Malaysia or Vietnam? I believe its impossible in Vietnam, and that in Malaysia (multi-cultural though it be) you have to become a Muslim to get Malaysian citizenship.

G

[simon43]

The 100 quota limit is of no relevance to most nationalities because only a few people of each nationality apply for PR each year.... the exception would be eg Chinese and Indians.

The PR rules are quite strict, but not impossible to meet. I'm still at 'ground zero' as far as meeting the application criteria are concerned - thanks to some of the crazy restrictions re visas, (eg no investment now, no WP if you are also studying on an ED visa etc). But I'm slowly geting my ducks in a row/lined up so that I start down this long road.

Simon

[highdiver]

How do the Thai authorities deal with applications from people

who already have dual citizenship from 2 other countries ?

in other words will they allow you to have triple citizenship

yes they allow it.

it does not matter if you are holding more then 1 passport.

[percy2]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

But this seems to say that If I have 5 years continuous stay on the same B visa and apply for PR I can then immediately convert to citizenship.

Assuming I reach all the other criteria.

Cheers

[otton]

So, perhaps we should compare like with like.

How easy is it to get nationality in say, Malaysia or Vietnam? I believe its impossible in Vietnam, and that in Malaysia (multi-cultural though it be) you have to become a Muslim to get Malaysian citizenship.

So if you yourself don't know (you just "believe") about those two countries why have you picked them to compare to Thailand?

I don't fully agree with you that the right comparison is like with like since the Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs. Anyway, wanting to play the like with like game, I do know of MANY 3rd and 4th world countries (so, like with like, with a very similar set of socio-economic circumstances to Thailand ranging from somewhat better to somewhat worse) with immigration laws much more liberal and open than Thailand's.

At the very least, Permanent Residence for spouses or parents of their citizens are much more easily granted by the following 3rd and 4th world countries:

1. almost ALL of the Latin American countries

2. many Asian countries Vietnam included (foreigners can now obtain permanent residency cards and there are no annual quotas and no special requirements especially for spouses or parents of Vietnamese citizens). For example, the Philippines, a country very much alike Thailand, is a particularly easy one.

3. practically ALL of the Eastern European countries

They all are like with like and much easier than Thailand at least to get Permanent Residence (which, for males, is in Thailand a prerequisite for citizenship so odds of getting the latter can only be worse than for the former).

[otton]

The 100 quota limit is of no relevance to most nationalities because only a few people of each nationality apply for PR each year.... the exception would be eg Chinese and Indians.

The PR rules are quite strict, but not impossible to meet.

No, not impossible, just strict enough to not even allow 100 applicants per nationality per year...

How many here would like to apply? How many qualify?

Maybe a good idea for a poll...

I'm still at 'ground zero' as far as meeting the application criteria are concerned - thanks to some of the crazy restrictions re visas, (eg no investment now, no WP if you are also studying on an ED visa etc).

And that's why "only a few people of each nationality apply for PR each year"...

Don't you have a business (a hotel IIRC) in Thailand? Don't you have a Thai wife? Don't you have Thai children (your own)? Aren't you living in Thailand from years?

And by Thai laws still at "ground zero"? Well, that says it all really...

[grtaylor]

So, perhaps we should compare like with like.

How easy is it to get nationality in say, Malaysia or Vietnam? I believe its impossible in Vietnam, and that in Malaysia (multi-cultural though it be) you have to become a Muslim to get Malaysian citizenship.

So if you yourself don't know (you just "believe") about those two countries why have you picked them to compare to Thailand?

I don't fully agree with you that the right comparison is like with like since the Thais are allowed in our homecountries everything which we are denied in theirs. Anyway, wanting to play the like with like game, I do know of MANY 3rd and 4th world countries (so, like with like, with a very similar set of socio-economic circumstances to Thailand ranging from somewhat better to somewhat worse) with immigration laws much more liberal and open than Thailand's.

At the very least, Permanent Residence for spouses or parents of their citizens are much more easily granted by the following 3rd and 4th world countries:

1. almost ALL of the Latin American countries

2. many Asian countries Vietnam included (foreigners can now obtain permanent residency cards and there are no annual quotas and no special requirements especially for spouses or parents of Vietnamese citizens). For example, the Philippines, a country very much alike Thailand, is a particularly easy one.

3. practically ALL of the Eastern European countries

They all are like with like and much easier than Thailand at least to get Permanent Residence (which, for males, is in Thailand a prerequisite for citizenship so odds of getting the latter can only be worse than for the former).

Sorry, it seems I misunderstood your post, and that we're talking about different things here. I was following on the subject of this thread and talking about acquiring citizenship/nationality, not about PR.

I said "believe" because I don't know . . . . I picked them because they're in asia, not "British or any other Western".

I DO agree with you about the ridiculous situation for spouses and parents here.

G

[simon43]

Don't you have a business (a hotel IIRC) in Thailand? Don't you have a Thai wife? Don't you have Thai children (your own)? Aren't you living in Thailand from years[\quote]

Correct on all counts

But I realised some months ago that moaning about the PR rules would get me no-where closer to obtaining PR! If I wanted to get PR then I have to stick to the rules/regulations. They are not going to be changed for me, nor for anyone else. So don't lose sleep over it.

Not impossible, but certainly not easy either!

As for ground zero, I'm more like at GZ+3months. But I have to see if I can extend my ED visa (which was the only visa available for me now), in a few weeks, and then wait for my wife to start being an employee at our hotel(so that she can then get 3 months of tax returns and then try to change my visa to an O visa, just so I can then apply for a Work Permit at my hotel because I'm not allowed a WP on my ED visa and I need a WP so I can pay taxes that are needed for PR because my 10 million baht investment in my hotel doesn't count for anything.........

Simon

[otton]

Sorry, it seems I misunderstood your post, and that we're talking about different things here. I was following on the subject of this thread and talking about acquiring citizenship/nationality, not about PR.

I said "believe" because I don't know . . . . I picked them because they're in asia, not "British or any other Western"

I DO agree with you about the ridiculous situation for spouses and parents here.

OK, and just to clarify why I specifically talked about PR:

1. PR is in Thailand (and unlike many other countries) a prerequisite for citizenship for almost everybody (only females married to Thai men are exempted) so when PR is already tougher to get than elsewhere you can imagine what your chances to get citizenship (which comes after you have got the former) are...

2. I think that most people here would be content enough with PR since simply being allowed to stay in the country (as someone with very legit interests in the country and/or long time commitments already in place and/or the kind of bonds which you can't simply cut off like spouses and children) is becoming harder and harder by the day.

[TheChiefJustice]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

But this seems to say that If I have 5 years continuous stay on the same B visa and apply for PR I can then immediately convert to citizenship.

Assuming I reach all the other criteria.

Cheers

The rule is that you must have PR AND you must have lived continuously in Thailand on non-immigrant visas before you are able to make an application for Thai citizenship.

The old rules worked like so - apply for PR, obtain PR, hold PR for 5 years, apply for Thai citizenship.

The new regulation works like this - apply for PR, obtain PR, make an application for citizenship if (when) you have lived continuously in Thailand on non-immigrant visas for a period of 5 years (including any period you hold PR). There is no need to hold PR for 5 years.

Basically, the change is to shorten the time a foreign male can apply for citizenship, probably down from almost 10 years (3 years to apply for PR, approximately 18 months waiting for it, and then 5 years holding PR before you can apply for citizenship = 9.5 years) to approximately 5 years if you do everything in order as soon as eligible - getting PR after 3 years, waiting another 2 years before you can apply for citizenship = 5 years).

Edited August 31, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[samran]

Well, irrespective of your views, younghusband, the Interior Ministry regulations have been amended as I have indicated. The amendment significantly reduces the amount of time a foreign male would otherwise need to wait before making an application for citizenship. As such, the amendment is one of substance in favor of the applicant.

I stand corrected but it surely doesn't reflect -one way or another -on the junta's agenda.

YH,

I tend to disagree based on a couple of factors. I know people have different views on the junta and that is their right (which I respect), but having maybe a bit of a bit of inside perspective of the personalities of this government verus the old one (very minor...but better than nothing) I tend to get the impression that the people in this government are more outward looking that under Thaksin. But that is a side issue to a large extent, except that it is no secret that citizenship applications came to a grinding halt under the last government, which to me says alot when you take into account their nationalist agenda.

Anyway, for me, this change is a huge positive, and nothing to be sneezed at in my opinion. Firstly, I view these things in context with the starting point that Thai nationality is on one hand bloody hard to get. As such, in the past year, we have seen the backlog of citizenship applications being taken care of. I've had one mate waiting to be naturalised since 2000, even though he's been here since he was 3 years old (as a PR since his teens) who just got his citizenship in march this year despite him being as stereotypically Thai as you can get. That could have only come via ministerial discretion which would have been discussed at cabinet level first.

Another thing is obviously this change in regulation. Again, that would have been at the behest of the minister, no doubt discussed at senior levels, which as the Chief Justice said, is a substantial change in the rules.

In terms of the legistlation change mentioned in the BKK post, I view this as a postive light, even though it got knocked down. Under the last government (I had a little to do with them - hence my bad feelings towards them), ministries and departments were basically brow beaten into submission, so that very little 'independent' advice was given to the minister or PM that didn't agree with the perceived views of government. It was a government and burecracy of 'yes' men and women.

The fact that the relevant ministry felt comfortable in being able to propose a relaxation in the law (and do it publically) speaks volumes for me. Yes it got knocked back, but there seems to be a valid discussion going on there which if you even attended a meeting of sychophant advisors under the last government, you'd be singing this junta's praises as well (at least on this matter).

But, that is only my humble opinion.