2 hours ago, simon43 said:

I've worked in Myanmar for many years, and as you know I try to help with the education of Burmese kids. The easiest solution would be to live in Myanmar. But Myanmar has no retirement or DTV or Elite etc visa. If you are not working or married to a local, then you can't remain in the country... I have a Thai family (5 kids) - so Thailand makes a realistic 'base' for me for my trips into Myanmar.

Were I able to reside in Myanmar without teaching (at 67 years old!), then I would jump at the opportunity.

Interesting having never been to Myanmar, what's the reason for your preference?

3 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

I always paid for the service, I claimed nothing, there is nothing to claim

Same, if using govt hosp, I pay my way, and no Thai benefit claimed by me.

Any other civil services I don't directly pay for, I paid for via VAT and contribute considerably more than the average Thai, since I spend way more, in my 3rd house, and 5th new vehicle.

I inject far more money & taxes into the economy than most Thais.

8 hours ago, simon43 said:

But all of those desires do not preclude making an effort to integrate into the Thai community.

Integrate, yes. Change, no.

I live in a golden age where I could choose basically any place on the planet to visit, or live in.

I have been in many places, some good, most a lot worse. In the end, I have chosen this place, Thailand, because it fulfills my inherent needs, spritually, emotionally, socially, the most. I feel at home as much as somebody like me can feel at home anywhere.

Therefore, I actually do not want it to change, or be changed. Unluckily, time does its thing all by itself, but I definitely will not hurry it along myself.

9 hours ago, simon43 said:

This question applies to any foreigner who settles in a different country, but let's limit it to Thailand.

Very few foreigners here become Thai citizens. There are a number of PRs, but the vast majority of us are on non-immigrant visas, and therefore not legally settled here.

I see/read about many foreigners who 'settle' in Thailand, but then share nothing with the local population, other than the sun. They make little effort to learn the language or traditions or history or culture. They commit faux pas because they know little about the dominant religion. They survive on 'western' food and exist in some kind of expat bubble.

I have to ask why they came to settle here, and I can only think of sun, sex and cheaper living. But all of those desires do not preclude making an effort to integrate into the Thai community. For me, it's similar to the Muslim ghettos of my home city of Leicester - foreign communities who have no desire to integrate or understand the indigenous population.

Would you support a simple Thai language test when you go renew your non-immigrant visa? Fail that test and you're out......? Let's hear your comments :)

I come with money, and leave with nothing ;-)

10 hours ago, simon43 said:

They make little effort to learn the language or traditions or history or culture.

If people were forced to integrate they would probably leave to a better country, Thai men aren't bothered about integration either, I don't see the headlines Farang don't want to integrate we want to integrate with them

Should foreigners try to integrate into or change the culture in your country?

Yes. Learn how to speak fluent Lanna or Isaan dialects then make funny videos on Tik Tok. Try to fit in. 👍

if you live in one place, buy your noodles from the same vendor, go to the same market, take the same train you are as integrated as you will ever get

6 hours ago, sidjameson said:

Interesting having never been to Myanmar, what's the reason for your preference?

Oh, very long story! I originally went to Myanmar to get away from my mad Thai ex #2, in the knowledge that it was about the only place that she would not follow me to :) I should write a book about it....

9 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Oh, very long story! I originally went to Myanmar to get away from my mad Thai ex #2, in the knowledge that it was about the only place that she would not follow me to :) I should write a book about it....

Page 1 - I went to Myanmar to get away from my mad Thai ex. Page 2 end of story.

11 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

The Chinese have stopped going to Thailand en masse recently , they will all soon be gone

No. Millions of Chinese still visit. 2.6 million Chinese disagree with you because that's how many have entered since 1 Jan.

9 hours ago, simon43 said:

IMHO, the fact that so many foreigners do not want to integrate is one strong reason why governments of Thailand have little interest in making life 'easier' for us.

"Don't want to integrate, but happy to live here for the sun ,cheap lifestyle, cheap booze and women... well don't be surprised if we ignore your opinions when we make rules that affect you in a negative manner ....."

The cheap booze and women are their responsibility, and not that of the foreigners. They made this a sex capital, so it isn't about expecting certain things besides the consequences thereof. Making life easier for anyone is on them, and benefits them, as millions are spent here yearly, besides us taking care of women and children.

As far as integrating, that's a personal choice. If you really want to get into the culture, then do it. if you like staying here for any number of reasons, don't cause trouble and spend your money and they should be happy. There are countless Asians in America alone that never learn the language, work, contribute and get along with a few words here and there and Americans are fine with them, as long as they also don't get out of hand.

Living near San Antonio for 32 years, I've seen many Mexicans who moved there who can't speak any English. If they want to become citizens they have to learn but not otherwise, as they have plenty of others they can communicate with, including at jobs.

Chinatown's in every major city, where the population is mainly Asian, where they open businesses where all Americans come to shop and eat. The same as here, where Thais open foreign restaurants to cater to us, along with making more choices for them. Wherever you live here, if you learn a few phrases and how to order food, you're fine.

We're not going to change the culture any more than they're doing it themselves, adopting cars, trucks, scooters, computers, TV's, phones, food, military equipment, music, movies, court systems, and languages.

Edited July 22Jul 22 by fredwiggy

My experience in CNX for almost 8 years is most local people don't want us foreigners to actually settle. They prefer to keep most of us at a safe distance. Like pay for products and services and then go back to our respective residences until the next time. Once I figured this out I maintain a low profile and get on with my time here until it ends. This is my reality and others might have a different perspective.

13 hours ago, Rams86 said:

...my wife is renovating her late mothers house at my wifes expense.

Your wife is independently wealthy? Well done.

Much talk about integration in this thread thusfar, but not so much about change - which I think could be a dangerous game for foreigners to play as it could stir up considerable resentment among the indigenous locals - in much the same way as the muslimisation of my home country (UK) is doing.

13 hours ago, simon43 said:

I understand that, and wanting to be left alone as an individual is not the same as forming a 'ghetto' of foreigners who refuse to integrate. I'm living on Phangan Island, and I'm amazed at the increasing number of foreigners who are isolating themselves from the local Thai community, (especially those of a certain nationality). I was at the immigration office yesterday and chatting in Thai with the local IOs. There were some choice comments and criticisms from them about a certain nationality......

I'll bet the "certain nationality" is Brits right?

Everybody hates Brits.

Anyway, nobody on AN has a hate fixation on any other nationality.

14 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You do claim Thai benefits when you go to Thai hospitals

Unless we have a Thai spouse who is working for the civil service for healthcare we get 0 baht from the government. There is now three/four tier hospital pricing system that forces us to subsidy other non western groups.

8 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I'll bet the "certain nationality" is Brits right?

Everybody hates Brits.

Anyway, nobody on AN has a hate fixation on any other nationality.

I've seen hate for Indians, Russians, Brits, Americans, Jews, Aussies, Germans, Swiss, and a couple of others. Why I'll never understand besides knowing it's learned at home. Prejudice has no place in society and is why we have so many problems. Accepting that everyone is an equal unless they prove otherwise to be inferior. By actions and not nationality, creed or race.

Integration implies both parties change, and are willing to change (to a degree).

Assimilation implies the new/minority party changes to the dominant norms of society.

Foreign/ethnic minorities are (for awhile) accepted as long as they benefit the power elite.

Read Thai history from the founding of Ayutthaya up to the present time to get a better understanding.

2 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

No. Millions of Chinese still visit. 2.6 million Chinese disagree with you because that's how many have entered since 1 Jan.

At least Chinese are not like this at BKK. This was at ICN.

2 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

No. Millions of Chinese still visit. 2.6 million Chinese disagree with you because that's how many have entered since 1 Jan.

13 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I've seen hate for Indians, Russians, Brits, Americans, Jews, Aussies, Germans, Swiss, and a couple of others. Why I'll never understand besides knowing it's learned at home. Prejudice has no place in society and is why we have so many problems. Accepting that everyone is an equal unless they prove otherwise to be inferior. By actions and not nationality, creed or race.

Thank you teacher.

Should foreigners try to integrate into or change Thai culture?

Fortunately, Europe and the UK has already spent years producing a very expensive, highly visible answer.

13 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Not for me. It's not a culture I'm particularly fond of. I put up with it living here, but it drives me crazy sometimes. My British son (born here) is fully integrated and it's my job to make sure he doesn't lose his "Britishness"!

Oh dear, the burden of this decision must be almost unbearable. Thoughts and prayers to you, and, naturally, to the entire nation of Thailand.

That level of self-appraisal is truly aspirational. Why let reality interrupt a perfectly good standing ovation?

(whilst living in Thailand)

Edited July 23Jul 23 by ravip
add

12 hours ago, simon43 said:

IMHO, the fact that so many foreigners do not want to integrate is one strong reason why governments of Thailand have little interest in making life 'easier' for us.

"Don't want to integrate, but happy to live here for the sun ,cheap lifestyle, cheap booze and women... well don't be surprised if we ignore your opinions when we make rules that affect you in a negative manner ....."

Not sure there are many countries where the desires of foreigners/immigrants are of more interest to the government than their own citizens. The UK is about to increase the difficulty level for English language tests for Settlement and has made the whole process exorbitant, with very high financial requirements. Thailand might not be actively making life difficult for "us", but it's still fairly easy to live here if you meet the requirements. Not requirement to be Thai though - we're all "non-immigrants"!

1 minute ago, ravip said:

Oh dear, the burden of this decision must be almost unbearable. Thoughts and prayers to you, and, naturally, to the entire nation of Thailand.

Cheers. However, it's not unbearable at all. I've loved living here (since 2005); I just don't feel the need to integrate.

49 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I'll bet the "certain nationality" is Brits right?

Everybody hates Brits.

Anyway, nobody on AN has a hate fixation on any other nationality.

Israelis. Don't you know any Thais?

GREAT Topic.

It's complicated. Depends on things like (location, working to understand Thai culture, people, and behavior for that area)

Depends on if you settle in a tourist area (Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket) or in a majority Thai area.

How about answering this question?

How do you show respect, appreciation, and how do you contribute to Thailand?

It took me 3 years to mostly understand the culture and behavioral nuances.

(Staying Calm, respectful, be more accepting of others, patient, always seek Harmony, make small contributions to people in Need.)

Someone keeps trying to shove this ridiculous "Learn Thai" down our throats. Check AI some people struggle to Learn languages. Just use Bing Translate or Google Translate. Never had someone Refuse to communicate through the translation app.

Most people are a product of their environment. If you've been in Thailand for 3 plus years it's time to start demonstrating your ability to "Blend in" to Thai society.

14 hours ago, simon43 said:

I see/read about many foreigners who 'settle' in Thailand, but then share nothing with the local population, other than the sun. They make little effort to learn the language or traditions or history or culture. They commit faux pas because they know little about the dominant religion. They survive on 'western' food and exist in some kind of expat bubble.

14 hours ago, simon43 said:

Would you support a simple Thai language test when you go renew your non-immigrant visa? Fail that test and you're out......? Let's hear your comments :)

But of course, you should try to integrate with the Thai culture and way of living as well as become as fluent that you can socialize with Thai people. if you wish to be left alone or be around people doesn´t change the need for integration to have a good life without complications or problems when need to do something. Mostly when something needs to be done, you get to deal with a Thai. If you integrate that will make it so much easier. And how fun is it to change location, and then only eat or demand same food as in home. In my opinion only boring, and ignorant people would refuse to learn, know about and socialize with people in the country they chose to reside in.

14 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Why bother when you can never be a citizen?

I'm more hermit than expat bubble, I don't mix with anyone outside my immediate family.

I didn't come to settle here, got married to a local and had a kid.

And I can't return with my wife, as she's Buddhist Thai.

And the Brit government only want Muslims.

14 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I don't want to change the Thai government, claim Thai benefits, or turn Thailand into the UK, or kill the locals.

I just want to be left alone and spend my money on my family.

The comments above are from a person with a very narrow view and also a great lack of understanding. Seems like that regards both Thailand and home country. Also, the refusal to not mix with people outside a specific group, sounds very boring. First, we have the talk about, that you didn´t come here to settle. Must mean that you just met, got married had a child and started thinking after. Sound like that would be kind of the wrong order of doing things.

Suddenly you also think you can´t return to UK with your wife. As far as I know, most Thais are Buddhists. Already, 2011 it was living close to 38 000 Thais in UK, and 72% of them were women. Probably all non-Buddhists, right? No, the thing is that your wife does like you. She refuses to move to UK, as that would force her to integrate with another society. She is thinking before and know what is expected of her if she would move. That makes her a little bit smarter.

Also, we have many irrelevant reasons for not integrating:

1. Why bother when you can never be a citizen?
Yeah, that might be because you are living here and sounds like you will do until end of days. Almost same!

2. I don't want to change the Thai government, claim Thai benefits, or turn Thailand into the UK, or kill the locals.
Integration and to socialize with the people in the country you live in, has nothing to do with the above. Talking to people and being able to ask for things, go to the municipality and so on, has nothing to do with changing leadership and government in the country you live in. Neither has benefits, killing people or changing the country anything to do with it.

3. I just want to be left alone and spend my money on my family.
Yeah, that is perfectly ok if that is your wish, but neither that is a reason for not integrating when you reside in a country for the rest of your life.

Cross cultural integration is more about being polite and not trying to stand out any more than physical appearance dictates.

Having lived in many diverse cultures, I found that there are basics to fitting in. Just be nice. I've also found the most adamant people who demand "integration" or "going local" tend to be in their first foreign environment. "You're not integrating!", says the guy who has only lived in two nations.

No way could any outsider fully appreciate the natural indoctrination that takes place growing up in an unfamiliar culture with its own belief systems. When I lived in Japan, I used to be told that no outsider could possibly understand the significance and meaning of the "tea ceremony". I accepted that, though I found it an interesting insight into how the hive mind works.

I've lived in places where the predominant belief system was Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Moslem. Even if I studied the true tenets of those faiths, I'd still miss how they are practiced at the "retail level". Most faiths, when adopted, were simply spread like butter on top of the already-existing belief system, so the supposed faith at the wholesale level is quite different from how the masses actually practice it.

No matter where one settles, there are going to be things one likes and things one dislikes. Embrace one and endure the other, and everything goes smoothly. Perhaps by example, rather than by admonition, one can occasionally influence another culture. All cultures are dynamic, and all go through changes arising from within and without. If there is influence from outside, and the masses see it as appealing, they will slowly adopt it.

On an individual basis, just be nice and don't act superior. Some outsiders can go live in the back of beyond Isaan and fit in quite well. Personally, I'd be bored silly, so I won't ever try. Thailand offers many alternatives, however. Even in downtown Bangkok, one can find "community" or little villages amidst the chaos of a city of maybe 12 million. I "integrate" in some ways, as I employ a considerable staff of Thai people in my business. In no way am I Thai nor Buddhist, but I can fit without incident by just not trying to dictate belief or behavior.

The world is now a big melting pot, but there are still very few places where outsiders are ever accepted in totality. Humans retain a good deal of tribalism, and an amulet or religious tattoo are never going to allow someone to fully be "one of us".

No