Alternative Philippines?

[itsbill]

I spent a few days in the Philippines last week having a look around and generally trying to check out the situation there, I must say on first impressions the country seems very poor compared to Thailand, everyone seems to be hustling far more than happens here, every town looks like it needs a lick of paint, just about every building is run down all the pavements/sidewalks are washed away its clear the local authorities have no money at all to spend on upkeep of public areas. There are plenty of modern facilities such as huge shopping malls and supermarkets then fifty meters away are shacks without running water all things that do exist in Thailand but not so common, not so ‘in your face’. The local people seem very friendly and hospitable pretty much like Thai’s but perhaps not quite as nice, maybe a little more desperate.

Manila is like BKK big, sprawling and very congested the islands are kind of similar to island areas here but much less developed, so what’s it got going for it? Well one thing is many people speak very good even perfect English, maybe a friendlier attitude towards foreigners in general but mostly that you can show up at the airport and get a tourist visa and with very little effort stay there for 2 years, that was what attracted me to go take a look and I must say I ran into many Thai resident farangs who were there for the same reason, just having a look and checking the place out. I can see many areas where the Philippines do not hold a candle to LOS but they defiantly want us there they are bending over backwards to get us to go and live there and spend our money. At the moment the balance is just slightly in Thailand’s favour for me personally but I don’t think if push came to shove I would hesitate to pick up sticks and take a 6000 baht flight out there and put down new roots.

[Jingthing]

I agree.

The Philippines is an excellent backup for those of us who might be pushed out of Thailand. Did you check out Cebu City? To me, this is the place to move, a big city but close to really great smaller islands. With their visa system, you can stay for many years without a real visa, but you have to get an extension every 2 months. Reports are the total cost is about a dollar a day, plus the occasional needed trips out of country (either every 12, 18, or 24 months). Mabuhay khrap!

[itsbill]

I agree.

The Philippines is an excellent backup for those of us who might be pushed out of Thailand. Did you check out Cebu City? To me, this is the place to move, a big city but close to really great smaller islands. With their visa system, you can stay for many years without a real visa, but you have to get an extension every 2 months. Reports are the total cost is about a dollar a day, plus the occasional needed trips out of country (either every 12, 18, or 24 months). Mabuhay khrap!

Unfortunatly because of flight problems ( having to wait 3 days for one from Ilolio) I did not get there that was one of the main places I wanted to visit , how did you find it ? is it run down like I describe other areas above? what do you think of cost of living compared to LOS?

Edited September 23, 2007 by itsbill

[Jingthing]

Its worth a visit for sure. It is a big city, some parts are run down, some are not. They have modern shopping malls but nothing like Bangkok or Manila. I estimate the costs are similar to Pattaya, some things more expensive, some less. Housing seems to be going up, probably a great time to buy as Cebu is getting hugely popular with Koreans, and they have money. There are some luxury condo projects being built.

[PattayaParent]

Its worth a visit for sure. It is a big city, some parts are run down, some are not. They have modern shopping malls but nothing like Bangkok or Manila. I estimate the costs are similar to Pattaya, some things more expensive, some less. Housing seems to be going up, probably a great time to buy as Cebu is getting hugely popular with Koreans, and they have money. There are some luxury condo projects being built.

I was in Philippines for 4 years before coming to LOS and the place was falling apart, I went back for a visit after 6 years in LOS during which time there were great improvements in LOS and Manila was in an even worse state than before.

Back then beer was 1/3 of the price in LOS and food was about the same as LOS but not such a good variety. Accomodation was a similar costs (rent and hotels) but the standard in PI was only 50% of th standard here.

There are many new condo developments built from what I hear but the basic infrastructure has never been developed since Marcos ran off with all the money so horrendous traffic jams are the norm, much worse than in Bangkok.

Sounds like it's not changed in the 13 years since I left.

[euca]

Interesting in light of current LOS official attitude. Can anyone offer a personal opinion on Indonesia: visas, cost of living... as noted above for Philippines? Come to think of it, opinions ref: Laos and Cambodia might be useful, too.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, but Cebu City is booming and is a bright spot economically. You move to a country, but you also move to a region.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[liketobe]

Up-date to the first few posters about RP visas.

Upon arrival you get free tourist visa, get extention every two months, must leave after on year for as long as it takes to get a flight bach. No nothing else!

(no need go to imagration just hand your passport and cash to the TRUSTED travel services and pick up next day)

I don't know about flights from thailand, but I use Cathay out of Hong Kong direct to Cebu avoid Manilla at all cost

[Jingthing]

Up-date to the first few posters about RP visas.

Upon arrival you get free tourist visa, get extention every two months, must leave after on year for as long as it takes to get a flight bach. No nothing else!

(no need go to imagration just hand your passport and cash to the TRUSTED travel services and pick up next day)

I don't know about flights from thailand, but I use Cathay out of Hong Kong direct to Cebu avoid Manilla at all cost

They recently liberalized the system even more. You can now stay up to 18 or 24 months without leaving the islands at all, with in country extensions. I don't believe the stamp on arrival is called a tourist visa, it is instead a 21 day permission to stay, the only way to get a real PI tourist visa is from a PI embassy/consulate outside the islands.

[liketobe]

Yeah, but Cebu City is booming and is a bright spot economically. You move to a country, but you also move to a region.

The mayor of Cebu talks like Manilla is in a different country.

Davao is a safe but not for drug dealers, the mayor stated some time ago that he will kill any drug dealers in his city. Body count has gone way down this last year must not be many left.

[liketobe]

Up-date to the first few posters about RP visas.

Upon arrival you get free tourist visa, get extention every two months, must leave after on year for as long as it takes to get a flight bach. No nothing else!

(no need go to imagration just hand your passport and cash to the TRUSTED travel services and pick up next day)

I don't know about flights from thailand, but I use Cathay out of Hong Kong direct to Cebu avoid Manilla at all cost

They recently liberalized the system even more. You can now stay up to 18 or 24 months without leaving the islands at all, with in country extensions. I don't believe the stamp on arrival is called a tourist visa, it is instead a 21 day permission to stay, the only way to get a real PI tourist visa is from a PI embassy/consulate outside the islands.

Your right permission to stay......haven't bine up to date with the RP forum tyed up finishing here and packing to go back. 18-24 months now? don't let my girl friend know.....no need for you to go back plenty time to make baby and be good father

[itsbill]

Up-date to the first few posters about RP visas.

Upon arrival you get free tourist visa, get extention every two months, must leave after on year for as long as it takes to get a flight bach. No nothing else!

(no need go to imagration just hand your passport and cash to the TRUSTED travel services and pick up next day)

I don't know about flights from thailand, but I use Cathay out of Hong Kong direct to Cebu avoid Manilla at all cost

They recently liberalized the system even more. You can now stay up to 18 or 24 months without leaving the islands at all, with in country extensions. I don't believe the stamp on arrival is called a tourist visa, it is instead a 21 day permission to stay, the only way to get a real PI tourist visa is from a PI embassy/consulate outside the islands.

Your right permission to stay......haven't bine up to date with the RP forum tyed up finishing here and packing to go back. 18-24 months now? don't let my girl friend know.....no need for you to go back plenty time to make baby and be good father

Flights to MANILA are about 5/6000 on Ceba Pacific, internal flights are crazy cheap with them I paid 900 baht all in Iloilo to Manila taxes and everything , that was not an offer that was the normal price. I am sorry I did not make Cebu but I certainly didnt want to be stuck in Iloilo for 3 days , My wife and I are definatly thiking about it now , i would need to go back and find the right location as I must admit I was not impressed with the places I visited Manila is Bangkok with worse air, traffic, decay and about a 10th of the planning, Angeles is Pattaya in the 60's, Subic is run down and the sea looks a bit grey, ilolio was so run down it was awful I spent a good 2 hours there before heading to the airport, but I did form the opinion that there are places to go like Cebu that can give us westerners what we are looking for in terms of reasonable infrastrucure

[hulabula]

For me, what really means something, is the mentality of the people. I lived in Cebu for around 6 months, and the way the people were, was getting on my nerves. There is a lot to say about it, but basically philippines seem to fear everything a lot - and I don't think it has to do with the very bad financial situation in the country, only. There seem just to be some very, very stressful aspect of philippine mentality which makes it difficult really to BE, feel peace inside. They always force you to direct your attention outwards and to act, actually. Not easy just to be yourself there. That was my impression.

The mentality is very american. It is like there is no roots, really, in the country. Like the people do not know who they are. That's maybe the reason the church has such heave influence on the people's perception, values (or lack of them), etc. Most girls want to leave the country. I think that speaks for itself. It is not just a coincidence, that the girls so hard want to leave their native country, culture. Of course they know what life is there. And if it was good, why should they want to leave?

I am not trying to insult any philippine people who might read this, but it really looks like you only have a future in Philippines if you bring millions with you to the country AND are able to find a family, who will not fool you. I would never advise people to put down roots there. In my eyes, there is no future in Philippines. And the mentality - which seems to be a mix-up of many elements from many cultures - is behind the tragedy of the country. As far as I can see. be careful about it, folks. Especially if you want to settle down there with a filipina. Be careful.

[mel2surf]

itsbill, May I ask if you've already considered/checked out Laos,Cambodia,Vietnam etc? before coming

to your conclusion? I am an under 50 in LOS...yea,one of those demonized by thai imm..even though I have plenty

of funds,and a longtime Thai gal pal that would marry me to on paper if it'd help me to stay..but I really don't wanna stay where I'm not wanted ya know? even though I spend alot of money into the economy.

Cambo seems a good alternative..any thoughts?

cheers,

mel2surf

[itsbill]

hi yes we did consider all those places Cambodia in my opinion is out if you have a farang wife ,also in my opinion it is dangerious there, we have lived in simular countries before and have had extreme problems and real dangerious situations , so we wouldnt go there. Laos is so quiet even the capital is like a little village great if that is for you but its not for us, Vietnam is our second choice slightly more of a problem with visa's but the big turn off for us was that to get real working internet you have to live right in one of the three big city's Malaysia is going to have full on Muslim law soon, which I think may be difficult for any westerner to live with. Philipppines seem to want us , i dont think its perfect I dont even think its as nice as LOS in many ways but they do want us there. We have stopped taliking about moving we are going in 3 weeks, I will continue this thread over the next few months as I think quite a few people may want to know how it works out in reality and if we love it or hate it.

itsbill, May I ask if you've already considered/checked out Laos,Cambodia,Vietnam etc? before coming

to your conclusion? I am an under 50 in LOS...yea,one of those demonized by thai imm..even though I have plenty

of funds,and a longtime Thai gal pal that would marry me to on paper if it'd help me to stay..but I really don't wanna stay where I'm not wanted ya know? even though I spend alot of money into the economy.

Cambo seems a good alternative..any thoughts?

cheers,

mel2surf

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe this is the thread I couldn't find over in the Southeast Asia forum; a topic about the PI. The early description by the OP reminds me of most Central American countries I visited and lived in 1998-2000: desperately poor. Cebu may be a bit of an exception, but even a region is still inside the same country. The vast numbers of Filipina nurses in North America, and teachers in Thailand and elsewhere, point to people with uni degrees fleeing the islands like rats deserting a sinking ship. Mexico looks much better.

[bunple]

please keep this thread going, I for one am interested in a plan-B if Thailand tightens the visa rules any more.

[Rumpole]

Cambodia in my opinion is out if you have a farang wife ,also in my opinion it is dangerious there,

I have lived in Phnom Penh for almost a year and disagree that it is any more dangerous than Thailand, where murders of, and violent robberies against, foreigners seem to be on the increase. Admittedly there are far fewer expats and foreign tourists here, but there have only been a handful of murders of Westerners within the last few years. Most of the robberies have also been committed against drunk expats foolishly taking unknown motorbike taxis from insalubrious areas after a heavy night out. Taking a few simple precautions (applicable also in most other parts of the world) will reduce the possibility that you will be the victim of crime here. I also do not really understand why you say Cambodia is "out" because you have a farang wife? There are many Western couples here, and quite a few single Western women, who, incidentally, find that they are less marginalized by the expat community than they are in Thailand. I also know a number of Thai/Farang Thai/Khmer couples who are here because it is much easier for the Thai to remain in Cambodia than it is for the non-Thai to stay in Thailand. I posted the information below on the South East Asia forum, but will copy it here for anyone who is thinking about Cambodia.

There is no specific provision or visa category for permanent residency or retirement, however the business visa (obtainable on arrival for $25) can be renewed indefinitely for periods of 1, 3, 6, and 12 months without leaving the country. 12 months costs $250 - $265 depending on which agent you use. The 6 and 12 month visas are multiple-entry. No checks of any kind are made on applicants for the business visa and the only documentation required is the completed application form, photograph, and papers bearing the portrait of dead American presidents! I strongly recommend using an agent rather than trying to enjoin battle with the Immigration Department yourself. It doesn't cost much more, and Immigration have been known to give people who apply in person the runaround (presumably because they don't then get the kickback which the agents pay them). Using an agent means that you will have your passport back stamped with a 12 month visa within 3 or 4 days.

The business visa easily enables you to open bank accounts and get Visa/Mastercard debit and credit cards - though a security deposit is usually required for the latter. Accounts may be held in either Riels or US dollars, and certain types of account can offer fairly competitive interest rates. There are almost no restrictions on foreigners owning and operating businesses in Cambodia. You can own 100% of the business, without any requirement for local shareholders, partners, agents, or employees. Tea money is required to get the business registration, but it is not excessive and the Cambodian government departments will generally leave you alone after that. You are also allowed to work in your business in any capacity, and may employ other foreigners (quite a few places have Vietnamese or Filipino staff, for example). No work permits are currently required, though there are occasional mutterings that one may be introduced.

The provisions regarding visas and business ownership have been in place for about 15 years and have not changed at all within that time. I also understand that it is now possible for foreigners to own property, but the law was only passed a few weeks ago and precise details are still a little sketchy. There is more detailed information on this in the South East Forum.

Phnom Penh is a very congenial place to live, and I find the Khmers to be pleasant, friendly and tolerant. They are not as nationalistic or as overtly xenophobic as the Thais - you will hardly ever hear the word barang for example. As with the Thais however, it is not so easy to make anything other than casual Khmer acquaintances. Some things in Phnom Penh, such as good Western booze, wine, and books are considerably cheaper than Thailand, though the selection of books is far better in Bangkok. Food is about the same price or a little cheaper than Thailand, and there is an abundant choice of good-quality eateries offering the whole gamut of Asian and Western cuisines. There are also a number of really nice open-air cafes and bars, serving good coffee, alcohol and food ( a legacy of the French). However, there is not as much low-cost street food available as there is in Thailand. Supermarkets are fairly well-stocked with a good selection of Western comforts. Accommodation can often represent better value for money than Bangkok, though you may have to shop around a little. Electricity and home internet connection are more expensive than Thailand, particularly the latter, and connection speeds can range from acceptable to erratic. Prices are however coming down and connection speeds improving, as more service providers enter the market. Although medical care is not quite as dreadful as it used to be, it is still pretty awful and is also much more expensive than Thailand. A few of the international clinics have expat or reasonably competent local doctors, and they can handle routine primary care. There are well-stocked pharmacies, which will dispense anything you want without a prescription. Although the pharmacists are not usually as knowledgeable as those in Thailand, the cost of medicines can sometimes be significantly cheaper. You need to make sure that you have medical insurance which includes a provision for evacuation to Bangkok or Singapore in an emergency, or for treatment for anything other than minor conditions.

Most places outside Phnom Penh are far less developed with poor infrastructure. Only Siem Riep and Sihanoukville have much in the way of Western-style amenities, and except perhaps in Siem Riep, you can forget about even basic medical care.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Rumpole

[itsbill]

Cambodia in my opinion is out if you have a farang wife ,also in my opinion it is dangerious there,

I have lived in Phnom Penh for almost a year and disagree that it is any more dangerous than Thailand, where murders of, and violent robberies against, foreigners seem to be on the increase. Admittedly there are far fewer expats and foreign tourists here, but there have only been a handful of murders of Westerners within the last few years. Most of the robberies have also been committed against drunk expats foolishly taking unknown motorbike taxis from insalubrious areas after a heavy night out. Taking a few simple precautions (applicable also in most other parts of the world) will reduce the possibility that you will be the victim of crime here. I also do not really understand why you say Cambodia is "out" because you have a farang wife? There are many Western couples here, and quite a few single Western women, who, incidentally, find that they are less marginalized by the expat community than they are in Thailand. I also know a number of Thai/Farang Thai/Khmer couples who are here because it is much easier for the Thai to remain in Cambodia than it is for the non-Thai to stay in Thailand. I posted the information below on the South East Asia forum, but will copy it here for anyone who is thinking about Cambodia.

There is no specific provision or visa category for permanent residency or retirement, however the business visa (obtainable on arrival for $25) can be renewed indefinitely for periods of 1, 3, 6, and 12 months without leaving the country. 12 months costs $250 - $265 depending on which agent you use. The 6 and 12 month visas are multiple-entry. No checks of any kind are made on applicants for the business visa and the only documentation required is the completed application form, photograph, and papers bearing the portrait of dead American presidents! I strongly recommend using an agent rather than trying to enjoin battle with the Immigration Department yourself. It doesn't cost much more, and Immigration have been known to give people who apply in person the runaround (presumably because they don't then get the kickback which the agents pay them). Using an agent means that you will have your passport back stamped with a 12 month visa within 3 or 4 days.

The business visa easily enables you to open bank accounts and get Visa/Mastercard debit and credit cards - though a security deposit is usually required for the latter. Accounts may be held in either Riels or US dollars, and certain types of account can offer fairly competitive interest rates. There are almost no restrictions on foreigners owning and operating businesses in Cambodia. You can own 100% of the business, without any requirement for local shareholders, partners, agents, or employees. Tea money is required to get the business registration, but it is not excessive and the Cambodian government departments will generally leave you alone after that. You are also allowed to work in your business in any capacity, and may employ other foreigners (quite a few places have Vietnamese or Filipino staff, for example). No work permits are currently required, though there are occasional mutterings that one may be introduced.

The provisions regarding visas and business ownership have been in place for about 15 years and have not changed at all within that time. I also understand that it is now possible for foreigners to own property, but the law was only passed a few weeks ago and precise details are still a little sketchy. There is more detailed information on this in the South East Forum.

Phnom Penh is a very congenial place to live, and I find the Khmers to be pleasant, friendly and tolerant. They are not as nationalistic or as overtly xenophobic as the Thais - you will hardly ever hear the word barang for example. As with the Thais however, it is not so easy to make anything other than casual Khmer acquaintances. Some things in Phnom Penh, such as good Western booze, wine, and books are considerably cheaper than Thailand, though the selection of books is far better in Bangkok. Food is about the same price or a little cheaper than Thailand, and there is an abundant choice of good-quality eateries offering the whole gamut of Asian and Western cuisines. There are also a number of really nice open-air cafes and bars, serving good coffee, alcohol and food ( a legacy of the French). However, there is not as much low-cost street food available as there is in Thailand. Supermarkets are fairly well-stocked with a good selection of Western comforts. Accommodation can often represent better value for money than Bangkok, though you may have to shop around a little. Electricity and home internet connection are more expensive than Thailand, particularly the latter, and connection speeds can range from acceptable to erratic. Prices are however coming down and connection speeds improving, as more service providers enter the market. Although medical care is not quite as dreadful as it used to be, it is still pretty awful and is also much more expensive than Thailand. A few of the international clinics have expat or reasonably competent local doctors, and they can handle routine primary care. There are well-stocked pharmacies, which will dispense anything you want without a prescription. Although the pharmacists are not usually as knowledgeable as those in Thailand, the cost of medicines can sometimes be significantly cheaper. You need to make sure that you have medical insurance which includes a provision for evacuation to Bangkok or Singapore in an emergency, or for treatment for anything other than minor conditions.

Most places outside Phnom Penh are far less developed with poor infrastructure. Only Siem Riep and Sihanoukville have much in the way of Western-style amenities, and except perhaps in Siem Riep, you can forget about even basic medical care.

hi thank you for that very good round up of things in Cambodia , I actual was not talking about that kind of personal saftey,and reading my post it does sound like thats what i meant, but its an issue i dont want to discuss here. I must say the thing that puts me off Cam's more than anything else ( and you may tell me I am wrong) is that as far as I can tell any kind of 'real' internet connction that I would want costs a staggering $400 per month there seem to be several companies offering the same price. That was actualy my number one reason for rejecting Cam's is that correct or am I miss-informed? Do you have anything else to say as we dont hear very much about the country other than visa run stuff?

[Rumpole]

Internet services are improving here due, as I said, to increased competition, however many providers still charge for download capacity, rather than a flat fee. I do know of one company which is offering unlimited connection for (I believe) $36 a month, but the drawback is that this is for nighttime use - between 7.00pm and 7.00am. There are a number of free wifi spots around town, which will allow you to surf to your heart's content as long as you buy a cup of coffee or something. An increasing number of people are also having wifi installed at home - but I am not sure of the prices. I will try to check and post more information here. I confess that I have been fortunate in that I have a free connection in my on-campus accommodation, provided by the university where I work. This has been very reliable and speeds are acceptable.

Another point I should have mentioned in my previous post is that English is more widely spoken here than in Thailand. It is fairly easy to get around using English (though any attempt to learn Khmer is, of course, much appreciated). If anyone has specific questions about Cambodia, I will be happy to try to answer them.

[itsbill]

thats my problem im online 12 hours a day , and need real speed, wifi is pretty inefective at the best of times, and dial up style speeds are no good for me personally, i think i pay a faily high price here for internet 2700 per month I guess thats about $70 so to jump to $400 for an inferior service is just to far over my head

[JimmyCA]

Clean beaches too

[Rumpole]

thats my problem im online 12 hours a day , and need real speed, wifi is pretty inefective at the best of times, and dial up style speeds are no good for me personally, i think i pay a faily high price here for internet 2700 per month I guess thats about $70 so to jump to $400 for an inferior service is just to far over my head

Agree that if you depend on the internet to make a living, Cambodia may not be the best choice ...... yet. However, as I say. things are changing and I don't think you would now have to pay $400 a month to get a reasonable connection.

You could try asking here:

http://www.khmer440.com

Are the Philippines any better for internet connections?

Edited November 1, 2007 by Rumpole

[itsbill]

thats my problem im online 12 hours a day , and need real speed, wifi is pretty inefective at the best of times, and dial up style speeds are no good for me personally, i think i pay a faily high price here for internet 2700 per month I guess thats about $70 so to jump to $400 for an inferior service is just to far over my head

Agree that if you depend on the internet to make a living, Cambodia may not be the best choice ...... yet. However, as I say. things are changing and I don't think you would now have to pay $400 a month to get a reasonable connection.

You could try asking here:

http://www.khmer440.com

Are the Philippines any better for internet connections?

About the same price as here for high end connection 2700baht , but slightly slower and less reliable service so I believe