Are There Any Aristocratic Ranks In Thai Society?

[Hawkup2000]

As Thailand is a rather hierarchical soceity I wonder if there are any titles similar to the british titles Duke, Earl, Viscount and Baron. Or doThailand only have "hi-so"people in general?

[steveromagnino]

As Thailand is a rather hierarchical soceity I wonder if there are any titles similar to the british titles Duke, Earl, Viscount and Baron. Or doThailand only have "hi-so"people in general?

Yes - descendents of the royal family have various titles and there are also princesses of areas such as Princess of Chiang Mai (now deceased) although these are reducing in number as the minor multiple wife thing has run its course; in addition there are some honourary royal titles given out, although I understand this is not done quite so much anymore e.g. Phraya I think is a bestowed title as are Khun Ying and the like. You also have certain jobs such as being a Privvy Councillor or aide to the royal family that is virtually a title in itself. Some of these people are families of statesmen and have given time generation after generation to serve their fellow people. Others such as Khunying Pojaman are 'pay for title' types - the concept of arranging some charity events, major donations and so forth as a route to getting a title such as Khunying which would be about on par with a knighthood or similar in the UK.

The so called Hiso people include a few westerners - what most westerners consider to be Hiso as you would see in the magazines are actually nouveau riche tacky people, most of whom are only rich or willing to do anything to get a photo taken... not exactly real high society at all. And the various westerners that hang around that set are equally worthless wastes of time.

There is a real group of elite frequently grouped together here as 'The Bangkok elite' but I am not sure the group is nearly as cohesive or easy to understand as some here would like to make out - for a start many aren't even from Bangkok, and some are far from elite money wise. Consider it like the various stratas of old money, new money, wives of rich people, philanthropists etc in the west - out here is almost the same.

[Viceroy]

Thailand has a complex hierarchical system that includes both royal and aristocratic titles, all of which result from relationship to a king. A good summary of the system can be found on Wikipedia under the rubric Thai royal and noble titles.

[canadiangirl]

I sometimes see people with "Na Ayuthaya" in their name -- that's a hereditary title, isn't it?

[thedude]

I sometimes see people with "Na Ayuthaya" in their name -- that's a hereditary title, isn't it?

yes. its the most diluted in a series of hereditary titles, coming after Mom Chao (MC), Mom Ratchawongse (MR), and Mom Luang (ML). the next generation after Na Ayudthaya will not inherit any title.

i have a colleague with a Na Ayudthaya title which goes all the way back to Rama II, she is the last in line and (unless she is married to someone with a higher title) her children will not inherit any title.

Edited September 25, 2007 by thedude

[wileycoyote]

Yes,I think so.

I think there are still my Lanna Titles,commencing with Na .

Wiley Coyote

[Stephen Cleary]

There are descendants of foreigners in Thailand who also have the honorific 'na' surname even though they have no royal blood whatsoever.

Take 'Na Ranong', that surname was bestowed, by King Rama VI, upon the descendants of Khaw Soo Cheang, a Malaysian-Chinese who founded and governed Ranong province.

Many foreigners have held noble titles in Thailand such as the founder of Silpakorn University and Father of Modern Thai Art, the Italian Silpa Bhirasi. One of Thailand's noblest and most powerful family's over history - Bunnag, have had decorations of honorific titles - they were Persian.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Stephen Cleary

[Plus]

I thougth this "Na Ayutthaya/Na Songkla" appendages were given to civil servants as a reward for their work in respective provinces.

[Stephen Cleary]

I thougth this "Na Ayutthaya/Na Songkla" appendages were given to civil servants as a reward for their work in respective provinces.

You are right on the second one there. Descendants of 'Na Songkla' too have no royal blood at all. That surname was bestowed upon the descendants of Chin Yiang Sae Hao, a Chinese bureaucrat in the province.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Stephen Cleary

[ColPyat]

I thougth this "Na Ayutthaya/Na Songkla" appendages were given to civil servants as a reward for their work in respective provinces.

No, they are often descendants of the former Chao Muang, preceding the Chakri dynasty.

There are two kinds of real hereditary aristocracy in Thailand - descendents of the older Chao Muang families, and descendants of the different Chakri kings. There the titles are different than western systems of aristocracy, here each generation decreases one step, until the 'Na' describes aristocratic descend.

Thai aristocracy has watered down of course because the massive amounts of Minor wifes many aristocrats have held, often dozens or even more.

[Viceroy]

i have a colleague with a Na Ayudthaya title which goes all the way back to Rama II, she is the last in line and (unless she is married to someone with a higher title) her children will not inherit any title.

Titles are passed down through males only. Thus, the children of male mom chao are mom rajawongse, the children of male mom rajawongse are mom luang, and the children of male mom luang append Na Ayudhya to their surnames. And the children of males entitled to Na Ayudhya are also entitled to it, right on down through the generations.

There are many Thais who are entitled to append Na Ayudhya after their names. As pointed out, there are also the former princely families of Thailand who continue to use 'Na ________' in place of a surname. My dentist in Chiang Mai is 'Na Lumpoon'; she is a member of the family of the former princes (chao) of Lumpoon. The new Lady Mayor of Chiang Mai is 'Na Chiang Mai'; she is a member of the former princely family. I once knew a hotel public relations person who was a mom luang, and an airline captain who was a mom rajawongse. An interesting point is that a woman does not take her husband's title, although a courtesy title is generally available for her. Thus, a commoner who marries a male mom rajawongse does not become a mom rajawongse. Instead, she is addressed as 'Khunying' by courtesy.

Prior to the sixth reign, Thai did not have surnames. Rama VI decreed that each family would adopt a suitable surname. His Majesty personally designated surnames for the various branches of the royal family. Although they are perhaps mostly unfamiliar to us, Thai know very well the royal surnames.

As stated elsewhere, it is a very complex subject and can be confusing to the uniniated.

[Plus]

So Na Ayuthaya are pre-Chakri royla descendants, Na Somewhere else not necessarily so?

[ColPyat]

So Na Ayuthaya are pre-Chakri royla descendants, Na Somewhere else not necessarily so?

Not necessarily, in both cases. But can be.

[JetsetBkk]

One of Thailand's noblest and most powerful family's over history - Bunnag, have had decorations of honorific titles - they were Persian.

Is this the family of Jay Bunnag the newsreader?

I hope not.

[Stephen Cleary]

One of Thailand's noblest and most powerful family's over history - Bunnag, have had decorations of honorific titles - they were Persian.

Is this the family of Jay Bunnag the newsreader?

I hope not.

Well, there is only one Bunnag family in Thailand. Jay, the newsreader's family, once 'Strictly controlled the Chakri dynasty' and his great ancestor Chuang Bunnag (Si Suriyawongse) was once Regent of Thailand between the reigns of King Rama 4 and 5.

[thedude]

One of Thailand's noblest and most powerful family's over history - Bunnag, have had decorations of honorific titles - they were Persian.

Is this the family of Jay Bunnag the newsreader?

I hope not.

Well, there is only one Bunnag family in Thailand. Jay, the newsreader's family, once 'Strictly controlled the Chakri dynasty' and his great ancestor Chuang Bunnag (Si Suriyawongse) was once Regent of Thailand between the reigns of King Rama 4 and 5.

There are many Bunnag families now, but they descend from the same Bunnag family, immensely wealthy Persian traders and financiers that held sway in the courts in the late Ayutthaya period. The Bunnags are said to have controlled the purse strings of the palace and hence effectively controlled the kingdom's budget up until the early Chakri dynasty when the princes eventually won back control of palace finances. The Bunnags have since grown to the thousands. There are successful Bunnags and there are less successful Bunnags today, but by and large many Bunnags are still highly visible in society as professionals, businessmen, entrepreneurs and even entertainers.

[JetsetBkk]

Well, there is only one Bunnag family in Thailand. Jay, the newsreader's family, once 'Strictly controlled the Chakri dynasty' and his great ancestor Chuang Bunnag (Si Suriyawongse) was once Regent of Thailand between the reigns of King Rama 4 and 5.

There are many Bunnag families now, but they descend from the same Bunnag family, immensely wealthy Persian traders and financiers that held sway in the courts in the late Ayutthaya period. The Bunnags are said to have controlled the purse strings of the palace and hence effectively controlled the kingdom's budget up until the early Chakri dynasty when the princes eventually won back control of palace finances. The Bunnags have since grown to the thousands. There are successful Bunnags and there are less successful Bunnags today, but by and large many Bunnags are still highly visible in society as professionals, businessmen, entrepreneurs and even entertainers.

Thanks for all this interesting detail. I guess Jay Bunnag falls into the "entertainer" category since, as a news reader, he's a complete waste of space . I don't know how his female co-presenters put up with his embarrassingly sexist jokes.

I just found his Flickr account (flickr.com/photos/jaybunnag/). He seems to have spent some time in the UK recently as he's just uploaded some pictures of London and Brighton. This may explain why I haven't seen him on "Newsline" recently.

Perhaps he's been visiting an old, slightly richer, non-aristocratic, acquaintance?

[villagefarang]

Must be embarrassing to put a question like that, out there for all to see.

[scorecard]

The family name of one of my Thai work colleagues is 'Na Ayudaha'.

Recently a farang colleague visiting our office from Australia asked what the name meant.

Our Thai GM explained it like this: "descendant of the royal family of the ancient kingdom of Ayudaha".

We also have one MR and one ML amongst our staff, and another MR who joins us in some projects.

[Furbie]

Thailand has a complex hierarchical system that includes both royal and aristocratic titles, all of which result from relationship to a king. A good summary of the system can be found on Wikipedia under the rubric Thai royal and noble titles.

"Mom Luang (หม่อมหลวง, abbreviated in Thai as ม.ล. and sometimes in English as M.L. and sometimes translated into English as "The Honorable") are the last royal descendants still retaining a title. Mom Luang titles are conferred on children of male Mom Rajawongse. Colloquially, though incorrectly, they are sometimes addressed as "Mom"; the correct informal address is "Khun"."

Urgh! Who knew? Almost six years in Thailand and I know three Mom Luangs (professionally). Sadly, I address them all as Mom Luang, when it should have been Khun! if Wikipedia can be belived. Why do Thai's never correct you, how the heck are we suppossed to figure these things out without help.

The Thai title system is very confusing; but frankly, given Thailand, that makes sense somehow.

[thedude]

Thailand has a complex hierarchical system that includes both royal and aristocratic titles, all of which result from relationship to a king. A good summary of the system can be found on Wikipedia under the rubric Thai royal and noble titles.

"Mom Luang (หม่อมหลวง, abbreviated in Thai as ม.ล. and sometimes in English as M.L. and sometimes translated into English as "The Honorable") are the last royal descendants still retaining a title. Mom Luang titles are conferred on children of male Mom Rajawongse. Colloquially, though incorrectly, they are sometimes addressed as "Mom"; the correct informal address is "Khun"."

Urgh! Who knew? Almost six years in Thailand and I know three Mom Luangs (professionally). Sadly, I address them all as Mom Luang, when it should have been Khun! if Wikipedia can be belived. Why do Thai's never correct you, how the heck are we suppossed to figure these things out without help.

The Thai title system is very confusing; but frankly, given Thailand, that makes sense somehow.

don't sweat it Furbie, i'm sure if you truly offended any of them you'd know of it by now. i have never heard any being addressed with such formality and in fact many Moms actually have pet names with which society at large would refer to them. for example, former BOT governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakul is often referred to as Mom Oui, his predecessor at the BOT MR Chatu Mongol Sonakul is more commonly known as Mom Tao. Harvard trained architect and developer of the famous Boathouse in Phuket ML Tri Devakul is so often called Mom Tri for short that most people think its his actual name.

[geriatrickid]

Very interesting read. Thank you. European royal families and segments of the aristocracy are well known for their inbreeding and the resultant diseases associated with limiting the gene pool. As one doesn't see clumpings of hereditary diseases such as hemophilia (Queen Victoria's blood line) mental illness (the Portuguese and Bavarian royals) or porphyria (Mary Queen of Scots & her descendants) would it be a legitimate assumption to believe that historically the Thai Royals and the aristocracy are not as closed to non royal or aristocratic partners?

[wileycoyote]

Because the rest of IndoChina went Communist.

Did the marry with Japanese noble families ?

Wiley Coyote

[ColPyat]

Very interesting read. Thank you. European royal families and segments of the aristocracy are well known for their inbreeding and the resultant diseases associated with limiting the gene pool. As one doesn't see clumpings of hereditary diseases such as hemophilia (Queen Victoria's blood line) mental illness (the Portuguese and Bavarian royals) or porphyria (Mary Queen of Scots & her descendants) would it be a legitimate assumption to believe that historically the Thai Royals and the aristocracy are not as closed to non royal or aristocratic partners?

Actually, the European families have a much larger gene pool to chose from than the Thai aristocracy had. If you look at Thai history, you will find that marriages between half siblings and first degree cousins were the norm (and are still common).

Edited September 27, 2007 by ColPyat

[Furbie]

Thailand has a complex hierarchical system that includes both royal and aristocratic titles, all of which result from relationship to a king. A good summary of the system can be found on Wikipedia under the rubric Thai royal and noble titles.

"Mom Luang (หม่อมหลวง, abbreviated in Thai as ม.ล. and sometimes in English as M.L. and sometimes translated into English as "The Honorable") are the last royal descendants still retaining a title. Mom Luang titles are conferred on children of male Mom Rajawongse. Colloquially, though incorrectly, they are sometimes addressed as "Mom"; the correct informal address is "Khun"."

Urgh! Who knew? Almost six years in Thailand and I know three Mom Luangs (professionally). Sadly, I address them all as Mom Luang, when it should have been Khun! if Wikipedia can be belived. Why do Thai's never correct you, how the heck are we suppossed to figure these things out without help.

The Thai title system is very confusing; but frankly, given Thailand, that makes sense somehow.

don't sweat it Furbie, i'm sure if you truly offended any of them you'd know of it by now. i have never heard any being addressed with such formality and in fact many Moms actually have pet names with which society at large would refer to them. for example, former BOT governor MR Pridiyathorn Devakul is often referred to as Mom Oui, his predecessor at the BOT MR Chatu Mongol Sonakul is more commonly known as Mom Tao. Harvard trained architect and developer of the famous Boathouse in Phuket ML Tri Devakul is so often called Mom Tri for short that most people think its his actual name.

Thanks thedude, but aside from the "offending them issue", it just drives me nuts that Thais are so reluctant to correct mistakes - colleagues have overheard me address them, and the first time I had a meeting with one, I asked a colleague what tone the luang was so I could say it properly. I mean come on...a little help here. Urghhhh.

[CarlBkk]

When you meet with the ML and MR names, are you expected to treat them with more respect because of their hereditory names? If so, surely the office politics amongst the Thai workforce and them is complicated unless they're at the top of the tree.

Just done a quick search in facebook for the Bunnag name....174 people, obviously not all Thais but the vast majority it would appear. Many coming from high profile British schools and unis.

Another name I see very often is Bhirombhakdi - must be another huge family. Anyone know the history there?

[Stephen Cleary]

Another name I see very often is Bhirombhakdi - must be another huge family. Anyone know the history there?

I did a Google Search in Thai and found a very famous Bhirombhakdi (Phraya Bhirombhakdi) or otherwise known as Boonrawd Srethabutra.

He was of course the founder of Boonrawd Brewery, the man who brought us Beer Singha.

The Bhirombhakdi family are still in charge of Boonrawd Brewery until this day. Once upon a time Boonrawd was the biggest Thai company.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Stephen Cleary