Stickman Article About Learning Thai

[Jingthing]

Yes, I see your point. Now we are being western, get it? Thais are not big on debate, shooting logical arguments back and forth, probing follow up questions that might offend face, possibly offending people ... they just aren't and anyone who has been here awhile gets that. I still assert Thais who are used to that kind of conversation, they have had a westernized education.

Edited October 8, 2007 by Jingthing

[withnail]

Reading the article annoyed me, my guess is also that his Thai was probably terrible and therefore people attempted to use English to help him. The b#*tards.

Some of his comments which particularly annoyed me were:

"Judging by the vast array of Thai language books on sale, you would imagine that the Land of Smiles was packed with foreigners amiably chatting away in Thai." How many of these books go beyond an elementary level?

"I thought it would be like in my native Italy, where no-one questions that Italian is the first-choice lingua franca for everyone, local or foreigner." And what do they think of people speaking their language badly? A Thai girl I know lives in Italy and says they are very rude to her when she can't communicate properly with them in Italian.

"Not in Thailand: if you address someone in Thai, frequently they will answer in (sometimes very bad) English." You or me? if frequently is one in 10 then so what? If it's every other time I'd say his Thai was worse than their English yet he seems quite critical of their shortcomings.

"You also get little help from the media." Why should you? He's irritated that they speak English to him and that they speak Thai which is too difficult for him to comprehend.

"Thai women don’t much like men who can speak Thai." Define 'women'. It suits my girlfriend fine as she doesn't speak English.

"High-class hotels will make a point of stocking newspapers in English, but not in Thai." Possibly because none of their guests would read them.

End of rant.

[aanon]

Yes, I see your point. Now we are being western, get it? Thais are not big on debate, shooting logical arguments back and forth, probing follow up questions that might offend face, possibly offending people ... they just aren't and anyone who has been here awhile gets that. I still assert Thais who are used to that kind of conversation, they have had a westernized education.

i'm interested in your claims. originally you said that only "totally westernized" thais ever have this type of conversation you are after (let's call it a healthy exchange of views). now you are saying that only thais who have had a "westernized education" are "used to" that kind of conversation. can you define this requisite "westernized education" so that those of us with plenty of experience having conversations with thai citizens can see whether the jingthing rule holds up in practice?

my suggestion is that, of course, it is possible to have very wide-ranging conversations with thai people in their own language, but perhaps it requires a certain combination of personality/language skills/patience that not all people have.

all the best.

[aanon]

Reading the article annoyed me, my guess is also that his Thai was probably terrible and therefore people attempted to use English to help him. The b#*tards.

Some of his comments which particularly annoyed me were:

"Judging by the vast array of Thai language books on sale, you would imagine that the Land of Smiles was packed with foreigners amiably chatting away in Thai." How many of these books go beyond an elementary level?

"I thought it would be like in my native Italy, where no-one questions that Italian is the first-choice lingua franca for everyone, local or foreigner." And what do they think of people speaking their language badly? A Thai girl I know lives in Italy and says they are very rude to her when she can't communicate properly with them in Italian.

"Not in Thailand: if you address someone in Thai, frequently they will answer in (sometimes very bad) English." You or me? if frequently is one in 10 then so what? If it's every other time I'd say his Thai was worse than their English yet he seems quite critical of their shortcomings.

"You also get little help from the media." Why should you? He's irritated that they speak English to him and that they speak Thai which is too difficult for him to comprehend.

"Thai women don't much like men who can speak Thai." Define 'women'. It suits my girlfriend fine as she doesn't speak English.

"High-class hotels will make a point of stocking newspapers in English, but not in Thai." Possibly because none of their guests would read them.

End of rant.

yes, withnail, except from that silly complaint about the media being hard to understand, i think that the author's comment that thais are difficult to understand when talking at regular speed goes a long way to explaining why his thai conversations didn't go far.

all the best.

[DavidHouston]

Speaking of reading books, a fascinating book on Thai society, the individual within society, and the role of many of its institutions is "Inside Thai Society: Religion, Everyday Life, Change" by Niels Mulder, 2000, Silkworm Books. I found my copy in Bangkok. If any of you have read this book, I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

[sabaijai]

I think the article straddles a fine line between unreasoned Thai-bashing and utter nonsense.

[longway]

Yes, I see your point. Now we are being western, get it? Thais are not big on debate, shooting logical arguments back and forth, probing follow up questions that might offend face, possibly offending people ... they just aren't and anyone who has been here awhile gets that. I still assert Thais who are used to that kind of conversation, they have had a westernized education.

i think there is some truth to what you say now, but not what you said before. however imo you still go too far. i think in general they do try to be more polite when arguing, but to say that issues cannot be discussed logically between most thais is a very strange statement to make.

Have you tried to have a serious conversation with a Thai person where you ask questions, ask follow up questions, and try to reach a conclusion? You cannot do this in Thailand unless you are talking to a totally Westernized Thai.

with all due respect JT but this is just silly, and you are saying something very different now.

naturally most of my relationships here are with english speaking thais, but none have been educated abroad. it is different here certainly, but thais are not creatures from another planet. the difference between men and women, i believe, is greater than western people and thais (socio-economic background is also very important).

I think the article straddles a fine line between unreasoned Thai-bashing and utter nonsense.

is it some version of 'sour grapes'? the guy does not come accross as unitelligent, but has a big ego, and obviously went to some trouble to learn at least a little of the language. however when he found he did not get the fulfilment he wanted he decided thailand is not really good enough to bother with anyway. a pretty common rationalisation for most people, myself included.

Edited October 9, 2007 by longway

[Phrakhanong]

There is a cultural difference when holding a discussion in Thai, but this does not mean you cannot have a debate with a Thai. It's just that there are different rules concerning how to debate, in order to avoid appearing too confrontational. Get in a taxi and have a discussion on politics with the taxi driver... good practice. Listen to other Thais having a political discussion and learn from them... you will quickly see that they do hold debates with each other (individuals do hold different opinions and they do voice them in discussions), but they are more subtle and less confrontational in how they do it.

[zoltannyc]

"When tourists address me out of the blue in English, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll pretend not to speak English" - racist?

You must have a definition of 'racist' that differs from the one I have. I don't see that behaviour as based on 'race'.

I would rather say that this is a type cultural xenophobia and I met mostly (and unfortunately) French or French-Canadians with this attitude.

I speak three languages fluently and for me it's natural that in country where English is an official language I will ask for directions in English rather then in Hungarian or Russian.

[sabaijai]

There is a cultural difference when holding a discussion in Thai, but this does not mean you cannot have a debate with a Thai. It's just that there are different rules concerning how to debate, in order to avoid appearing too confrontational. Get in a taxi and have a discussion on politics with the taxi driver... good practice. Listen to other Thais having a political discussion and learn from them... you will quickly see that they do hold debates with each other (individuals do hold different opinions and they do voice them in discussions), but they are more subtle and less confrontational in how they do it.

Good point. Thais debate all the time. in their own way. There is also a notable difference between the ways in which, for example, the Swedish and the English debate, as borne out in discourse analysis.

I would take a step further and say that few Westerners who speak Thai at or near native level would ever make the claim that Thais don't or can't debate. No doubt, however, Thais prefer not to debate with someone speaking poor Thai.

[realthaideal]

"Listen to other Thais having a political discussion and learn from them... you will quickly see that they do hold debates with each other (individuals do hold different opinions and they do voice them in discussions), but they are more subtle and less confrontational in how they do it."

Waaaaay subtle in fact. An excellent source to hear how Thais speak straightforward, but non-confrontationally and indirectly would be the translations of HM The King's birthday speeches in the last two years that Toxin was in power. He went about it in a very fascinating way, and I believe these speeches were either posted on TV or made available by the Post or Nation. You can say alot about someone when implying what 'some people' ought to do or not do.

You just have to read deep between the cultural lines.

[mangkorn]

Anyone who thinks that Thais are non-confrontational in dabate has not paid any attention to Thai politics. Khun Samak is as subtle as a wrecking ball, with the same amount of charm and politeness. Thaksin is as subtle as a backhoe. And on and on...