Thai School Apologizes To Jewish Organization For Nazi Celebration

[bina]

hi

i'm one of the (or only?) resident american jewish israeli with thai husband so :

my husband was beaten up a month ago by a stupid group of 'arsim' (17 yr old 'hoodlum types) after they hassled him for his passport/id card, and he tried to just move away from them: they were drunk on the first day of school and he was an easy target as he is a foreign worker and was waiting for his ride to work and they figured he woulndt complain. we went with the police to the school and picked the ringleader up/ still waiting for them to tell me what they did with him (charges etc). the next week was the week of the russian neo nazis so everyone here made a connection...

we discussed nazis, holoucaust etc (and ive contemplated taking him to the holocaust museum here)... but the whole thing doesnt interest him: the past is past and people are 'crazy' (baa) was his comment... we've shown him pics as my ex mother in law is an escapee from the war... he knows the name hitler but thats about it... the rest of the history has about as much interest to him as the kmer rouge does to my three kids who have been to poland and done all the holocaust seminar stuff (there's no business like shoah (holocaust) business)... only the oldest has taken an interest lately due to my following the burma situation...

if i didnt have a thai husband, they probably wouldnt even know about asia apart from fast food chinese slop since history here is also ethnocentric ...

educational systems in general reflect their local ethnocentric feelings and to most kids of any age that have had no exposure to war/death, any wars/holoausts are just another movie from the past...

ask any arab kid here about the palestinian situation and they will answer, what situation?

youth does not care about anything but itself... and they dont know and really dont care about holocaust, kmer rouge, rowanda, armenia or anything else that doesnt have a castro benneton or fox symbol on it... (holocaust trips to poland are in style here for the 11th graders as in: have u done the poland seminar yet?? did u eat pork when u were there? was it cold?)....

bina and anon

israel

[ColPyat]

we discussed nazis, holoucaust etc (and ive contemplated taking him to the holocaust museum here)... but the whole thing doesnt interest him: the past is past and people are 'crazy' (baa) was his comment...

Well, there is some of the more important literature, such as the Diary of Anne Frank, translated into Thai. My wife found this rather captivating, and after reading some about period, has been able to draw direct parallels to the problems of contemporary Thailand, and through the example of Nazi Germany has been able to understand her own environment much better.

[elkangorito]

I had previously posted about our school where the students had etched the swastika on glass as an art project. The picture they used as a model was from the text book I was teaching from about WWII--so yes, it was not used in any religious context--which I am quite well aware of, and did ask about.

The inappropriateness of this was that it was a part of an art project--not individual students and that we had teachers who were Jewish. I simply advised that of the hundreds of pictures they could choose to use, they should choose something less controversial than the swastika. They didn't. I said nothing further because the situation doesn't affect me directly. I know that some of the other teachers felt very uncomfortable when they displayed their work.

It has to do with the lack of consideration for others. It also has to do with the fact that it is a school (and teachers) who are involved in this type of inconsideration.

At the school in question, I highly doubt that if any of the foreign teacher were consulted, the administration would have probably ignored them.

In any case, "tit for tat" is a stupid attitude. How long has this attitude been going on in other countries? And to what end because neither side will budge? Who will be the "grown ups" in this case?

How can anybody possibly expect Thai people to become more tolerant (less xenophobic) of others, if this tolerance is not displayed first? Afterall, how many times on Thaivisa, have you seen threads like, "Why is common sense lacking in Thais" (or similar) etc? Surely if "we", the supposed leaders in the world of "tolerance", show some tolerance, it will "rub off".

Come on people, this is not rocket science. It is, afterall, "TOLERANCE". And haven't we all suffered enough?

Tolerance for what? the Nazis? the glamorization of Nazis? How about glamorizing Mississippi lynchers? Or middle East honor killers? Or foreign sexual predators caught in Thailand. Live and let live?

Bullshit!

Some things can not be glamorized. To appeal to moral relativism as some have tried to do in this thread is laughable. Thailand? That same admin has NO tolerance for some representations- that I can gurantee. This has nothing to do with tolerance and everything to do with a tawdry and childish attraction to pure power. And a blithe vague understanding on the part of the 'responsible' adults that the whole thing was a long way away and a long time ago and really didn't have anything to do with Thailand anyway and what's the problem anyway?

But remember this too, only one year ago the parents of some of those children were draping garlands around the barrels of tanks that had just taken over the country. Just as the matrons did in Berlin all those years ago.

So...what do you suggest? "Tit for tat"? Revenge? Re-living the whole experience? Remembering the whole experience (if possible, since I wasn't born at that time)? Forcing people to "feel sorry" for those they don't even know or knew?

What is it that you hope to achieve by "making" people "feel" what you "feel"? Please answer this question. Aren't people now free to "feel" free in their thinking? Aren't people now free to act in any way that is nonviolent? Or would you like to see certain people "contained" because of what they think? Would you like to see people "contained" because their thinking did not equate to your thinking?

[DamianMavis]

That makes no sense at all. Lets all just forget humans past mistakes so we can make them again and again? Completely foolish. In fact Thailands biggest problem is that they have not learned from other countries mistakes since they dont even learn about them.

Damian Mavis

[elkangorito]

That makes no sense at all. Lets all just forget humans past mistakes so we can make them again and again? Completely foolish. In fact Thailands biggest problem is that they have not learned from other countries mistakes since they dont even learn about them.

Damian Mavis

You have totally missed the point!!!

[DamianMavis]

And what is that stuff about tolerance?! THAIS are waaaaay more tolerant than westerners. They screw eachother over all the time and just accept it, they think we are totally unreasonable when we get upset over things they tolerate daily.

Damian Mavis

[elkangorito]

And what is that stuff about tolerance?! THAIS are waaaaay more tolerant than westerners. They screw eachother over all the time and just accept it, they think we are totally unreasonable when we get upset over things they tolerate daily.

Damian Mavis

Just as I thought..."Tit for Tat".

That's how to really show people how to cooperate, isn't it!? Revenge....lovely! After all these years. What a stupid chosen "reaction". You'd make a great teacher...NOT!!!

[DamianMavis]

What on earth are you going on about?! If someone argues or disagrees with you they are bad in some way and you just insult them? OMG Your arguments and statements make no sense at all and are totally weak. So you run straight to insults? Pretty lame debating skills there man.

Damian Mavis

[elkangorito]

What on earth are you going on about?! If someone argues or disagrees with you they are bad in some way and you just insult them? OMG Your arguments and statements make no sense at all and are totally weak. So you run straight to insults? Pretty lame debating skills there man.

Damian Mavis

Would you kindly point out the "weak points" in my arguments. Also, would you kindly point out how my comments make "no sense at all"?

[A_Traveller]

At the risk of being labelled, might I respectfully point out that on July 6 1938, a member of the Irgun, disguised as an Arab, went to the Arab market in Haifa, placed a large package against one of the stalls in the centre of the market and left. Shortly afterwards there was a heavy explosion, which killed 21 Arabs and injured more than 50. A week later a similar attack took place in Jerusalem. In that, a member of the Irgun concealed an electric mine in the Arab market within the Old City. It detonated shortly after the end of the prayer service in the mosque, as a large crowd was emerging onto the street. Eight Arabs were killed and more than 30 injured.

It is true to say that there was tremendous debate and concern about these activities, of which I have only noted two out of some 60 similar actions in this period. It is also true that Arab attacks proceeded some of these actions, however, it would be incorrect to suggest that the Irgun was not active in harming civilians, and that they were not acting on the basis that political violence and terrorism were legitimate tools in the Jewish national struggle for the Land of Israel [Perliger and Weinberg]

Regards

[DamianMavis]

When you no longer have answers to questions in a debate and you immediately turn to insults since you have nothing else to say that is called WEAK. And makes no sense.

Damian Mavis

[elkangorito]

At the risk of being labelled, might I respectfully point out that on July 6 1938, a member of the Irgun, disguised as an Arab, went to the Arab market in Haifa, placed a large package against one of the stalls in the centre of the market and left. Shortly afterwards there was a heavy explosion, which killed 21 Arabs and injured more than 50. A week later a similar attack took place in Jerusalem. In that, a member of the Irgun concealed an electric mine in the Arab market within the Old City. It detonated shortly after the end of the prayer service in the mosque, as a large crowd was emerging onto the street. Eight Arabs were killed and more than 30 injured.

It is true to say that there was tremendous debate and concern about these activities, of which I have only noted two out of some 60 similar actions in this period. It is also true that Arab attacks proceeded some of these actions, however, it would be incorrect to suggest that the Irgun was not active in harming civilians, and that they were not acting on the basis that political violence and terrorism were legitimate tools in the Jewish national struggle for the Land of Israel [Perliger and Weinberg]

Regards

Well, I guess it all depends upon whether you see Thai school children in 2007, who are dressed in Nazi uniforms, as being a similar threat.

[elkangorito]

When you no longer have answers to questions in a debate and you immediately turn to insults since you have nothing else to say that is called WEAK. And makes no sense.

Damian Mavis

I have further questions....what insults? Please feel free to "quote" these "insults" you speak of.

BTW, I can "quote" you.

Edited October 19, 2007 by elkangorito

[DamianMavis]

And what is that stuff about tolerance?! THAIS are waaaaay more tolerant than westerners. They screw eachother over all the time and just accept it, they think we are totally unreasonable when we get upset over things they tolerate daily.

Damian Mavis

Just as I thought..."Tit for Tat".

That's how to really show people how to cooperate, isn't it!? Revenge....lovely! After all these years. What a stupid chosen "reaction". You'd make a great teacher...NOT!!!

Geeze man right there

Damian Mavis

[ZukiSuzuki]

Looks to me like a bunch of kids dressing up and having fun. Some people need to lighten up.

I agree, i would also like to say though that i think it's wrong that pictures of these kid's are being posted around this forum. I would have thought that with recent events here in Thailand that Thaivisa.com would have been a little more sensitive.

[ColPyat]

Well, I guess it all depends upon whether you see Thai school children in 2007, who are dressed in Nazi uniforms, as being a similar threat.

These particular school children are obviously not a threat, i haven't seen anyone here suggesting so. They were just in extremely bad taste. A similarly bad taste if in a western school parade some teacher would get the grand idea of dressing his pupils as Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge.

What though is a serious threat is that Nazi and Fascist ideology (if you look at Thai history - a direct influence from those days) is still openly admired by many people in power here, especially within the armed forces. Nazi Swastikas are by some Thais used in full knowledge what they stand for - a highly nationalist and racist world view, not too dissimilar the self definition of Thailand - the three pillars.

So, yes, especially here in Thailand there is a very strong need for a clear critical analyzes of the ideologies the Nazi Swastika represent, especially in school. Instead - what is taught in schools is a clear nationalist ideology.

In this spirit - the children in Nazi costumes are not only in bad taste, but do represent a clear lack of education of some important issues in the Thai school system.

[elkangorito]

Looks to me like a bunch of kids dressing up and having fun. Some people need to lighten up.

I agree, i would also like to say though that i think it's wrong that pictures of these kid's are being posted around this forum. I would have thought that with recent events here in Thailand that Thaivisa.com would have been a little more sensitive.

I would strongly suggest that "adults" be adult enough to apply their own cencorship. Basically, I suggest that all "moderation" of any kind, be abolished. This means that all manner of "stuff" will be available, with which to deal. How shocking! We can't have people "running amok", can we? It might cause all sorts of problems (bad "feelings"). At the end of the day, "no rules" means that "human" rules will apply. I totally trust this ideal. Humanity is more trustworthy than "rules".

If Thai kids run around in Nazi uniforms, we might have another Hitler on our hands. If this.....If that....if whatever. Geez, the whole world is not safe from peoples' thoughts! What are we going to do? I know...we will supress &/or control these horrible thoughts, before they happen.

How can we do this? Easy! We just buy a "crystal ball". It will tell us eveything, before "it" happens.

[elkangorito]

Well, I guess it all depends upon whether you see Thai school children in 2007, who are dressed in Nazi uniforms, as being a similar threat.

These particular school children are obviously not a threat, i haven't seen anyone here suggesting so. They were just in extremely bad taste. A similarly bad taste if in a western school parade some teacher would get the grand idea of dressing his pupils as Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge.

What though is a serious threat is that Nazi and Fascist ideology (if you look at Thai history - a direct influence from those days) is still openly admired by many people in power here, especially within the armed forces. Nazi Swastikas are by some Thais used in full knowledge what they stand for - a highly nationalist and racist world view, not too dissimilar the self definition of Thailand - the three pillars.

So, yes, especially here in Thailand there is a very strong need for a clear critical analyzes of the ideologies the Nazi Swastika represent, especially in school. Instead - what is taught in schools is a clear nationalist ideology.

In this spirit - the children in Nazi costumes are not only in bad taste, but do represent a clear lack of education of some important issues in the Thai school system.

In all seriousness, what you say is relatively ok. But it is easy for one to assume that all peoples of the world undertstand each other. So, let's make a universal law of "bad taste", starting with Thailand. Let's assume that all Thais understand everything or nothing about the Nazi Swasticka. Let's also assume that people have no idea of "bad taste" & make a law against that as well.

While we're at it, why don't we impose a "historical" law, whereby all parties who do not acknowledge all historic events, are "disciplined". Actually, in order to prevent possible future problems, why don't we "eliminate" people who have thoughts contrary to the general consensus (the general dictatorship).

In this way, the world would be wonderful. Thai school children would never dress in clothes that closely resembled another countrys' enemy, even though they had "bugger all" to do with that "enemy". People would be happy.

What a wonderfully controlled & perfect world it would be .

[mark henry]

I do wonder if there is a degree of ignorance on the part of Thai's to the 2nd world war just going on my wife's (Thai) amazing lack of knowledge of world history, she had never heard of Hitler, world war 2 or 1 or even the Vietnam war!! She always says.."its not important for me"!

[Scott]

The point that I think is important--as an educator--is that this sort of stuff is highly inappropriate for a school. Any school; not just this one. I respect people's individual right to chose and I support it as much as possible. I've had students sitting in class drawing swastika's--I explain to them that it is offensive to a lot of people and not appropriate to do in class--they are supposed to be paying attention. I don't destroy it. It's an individual choice.

When an entire school has such a 'theme' it's a whole different kettle of fish and a simple apology isn't sufficient. The school should probably take the opportunity to educate the students on what the symbol means (to a lot of people). It's a school for God's sake!

Tolerance is a fine trait of the Thai people in general. It might be a good time to start working on sensitivity to others as well.

[kmart]

The only culture or history that Thais are sensitive about is their own. They have a lot to be sensitive about in this respect.

[girlx]

The East owes nothing to the West and frankly any opportunity for the modern youth of Asia to show their contempt for the arrant hypocrisy of so called western values should be seized without hesitation.

bullshit. in that case we should dress the kids up as khmer rouge or even the royal family and have a bit of mockery- no harm done eh?

[kmart]

Whatever..... This pic gave me the horn.

[PeaceBlondie]

By the way, this sports day at the school was about one year ago, and was not repeated as a theme a year later. It was reported elsewhere, but I apologize if I failed, as a moderator of ThaiVisa's Teaching Forum, to host a topic about it. It's good to see the various reactions here.

It's not old news, though. It happened here in Thailand a year ago, and might resurface at any moment. Perhaps next month, some Thai school could stage a humorous reenactment of Rwandans butchering each other in front of schoolhouses! How about "Getting to know you on the killing fields of Petchaburi"? How about reenacting the shooting death of.....an unmentionable royal? But that would be an intolerable, insensitive reenactment of unthinkable Thai history!

The Nazi Holocaust was not just a bad example of war gone bad; war always goes bad. That Holocaust stands head and shoulders in gore and horror above Pol Pot and Idi Amin and Josef Stalin. For Thai school children to do enough historical research to stage that Nazi show, required them to find information which they ignored. It required teachers and administrators to sponsor and approve a celebration that 100% of those Thai educators should have immediately recognized as demonic. Perhaps twelve million ghosts of the genocide are haunting those Thai teachers now.

It was a big deal, a big mistake, and I suspect it could only have happened anywhere in Thailand, or in western New Guinea.

[Scott]

Very well stated, PB. It expresses my sentiments exactly!

[somtaamgaiyang]

I had previously posted about our school where the students had etched the swastika on glass as an art project. The picture they used as a model was from the text book I was teaching from about WWII--so yes, it was not used in any religious context--which I am quite well aware of, and did ask about.

The inappropriateness of this was that it was a part of an art project--not individual students and that we had teachers who were Jewish. I simply advised that of the hundreds of pictures they could choose to use, they should choose something less controversial than the swastika. They didn't. I said nothing further because the situation doesn't affect me directly. I know that some of the other teachers felt very uncomfortable when they displayed their work.

It has to do with the lack of consideration for others. It also has to do with the fact that it is a school (and teachers) who are involved in this type of inconsideration.

At the school in question, I highly doubt that if any of the foreign teacher were consulted, the administration would have probably ignored them.

It has nothing to do with consideration for others. It has everything to do with the fact that Thai teachers in this country have the IQ of an apple.

[Pakboong]

"Depending on how it is asked, more than a third of Americans say Saddam Hussein was personally involved in those attacks [9/11]. In a New York Times/CBS News Poll in September, 33 percent of the respondents said Saddam Hussein was “personally” involved. In June, when Princeton Survey Research, polling for Newsweek, asked if “Saddam Hussein’s regime was directly involved in planning, financing or carrying out the terrorist attacks,” 41 percent said yes."

Scary realy.

A typical outcome when discource is removed, by government, from the education process.

[Crushdepth]

and earlier this year, a pro-Hitler group in Taiwan with approximately 1,000 members attempted to gain official status from the government

They do know he's dead, right?

[somtaamgaiyang]

"Depending on how it is asked, more than a third of Americans say Saddam Hussein was personally involved in those attacks [9/11]. In a New York Times/CBS News Poll in September, 33 percent of the respondents said Saddam Hussein was “personally” involved. In June, when Princeton Survey Research, polling for Newsweek, asked if “Saddam Hussein’s regime was directly involved in planning, financing or carrying out the terrorist attacks,” 41 percent said yes."

Scary realy.

A typical outcome when discource is removed, by government, from the education process.

Discourse and also a biased press.

Study shows Fox News viewers misinformed about war, Iraq, WMD

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/714.html

Misperceptions, the Media and the Iraq War

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/art...02&lb=brusc

Thank god we aren't in China at least. Dalai Lama is a terrorist successionist up here.

[DamianMavis]

By the way, this sports day at the school was about one year ago, and was not repeated as a theme a year later. It was reported elsewhere, but I apologize if I failed, as a moderator of ThaiVisa's Teaching Forum, to host a topic about it. It's good to see the various reactions here.

It's not old news, though. It happened here in Thailand a year ago, and might resurface at any moment. Perhaps next month, some Thai school could stage a humorous reenactment of Rwandans butchering each other in front of schoolhouses! How about "Getting to know you on the killing fields of Petchaburi"? How about reenacting the shooting death of.....an unmentionable royal? But that would be an intolerable, insensitive reenactment of unthinkable Thai history!

The Nazi Holocaust was not just a bad example of war gone bad; war always goes bad. That Holocaust stands head and shoulders in gore and horror above Pol Pot and Idi Amin and Josef Stalin. For Thai school children to do enough historical research to stage that Nazi show, required them to find information which they ignored. It required teachers and administrators to sponsor and approve a celebration that 100% of those Thai educators should have immediately recognized as demonic. Perhaps twelve million ghosts of the genocide are haunting those Thai teachers now.

It was a big deal, a big mistake, and I suspect it could only have happened anywhere in Thailand, or in western New Guinea.

Right on, I have more respect for mods aorund the world just from reading this!

Damian Mavis