Thai School Apologizes To Jewish Organization For Nazi Celebration

[GuestHouse]

Well said. I am guessing you included the Ukrainian famine of the early 30s under the Russians. Understanding that particular atrocity gives one insight into the attocities attributed to the Nazis.

The atrocities committed by the Nazis are not 'attributed' to the Nazis they are atrocities that the Nazis committed - a fact of history not something that is 'attributed'.

If you want to understand the Nazi atrocities there's plenty to read on the matter from people who survived the death camps.

And yes it is quite right that other atrocities have taken place throughout history but non of those detract from what the Holocaust was, nor do they negate the recording and remembering what the holocaust was.

Edited for spelling.

Edited October 23, 2007 by GuestHouse

[Monroe]

Well said. I am guessing you included the Ukrainian famine of the early 30s under the Russians. Understanding that particular atrocity gives one insight into the attocities attributed to the Nazis.

Heh, yup yup, and the execution of something around 10000-15000 polish officers by the Russians and more. Could have listed many things, enough to fill pages, but that would make me more annoying than I already am =)

Monroe, you should not generalize on the whole of western education. My daughter's school in the UK covers the Nazis and the Hollocaust in great detail, not just for pupils at the school but also the school has a Parent evening in which the school offers parents the chance to undestand what is being taught, why and the impact it may have on our children.

Actually, I was referring to the "institution of public schooling" within the Americas (or the W hemisphere) as opposed to the Western world (which would also include Japan and South Africa =). It's no big secret that our public school systems are inadequate and full of gang/drug problems. Even in my school, which consistently ranks within the nation's top 20 (not really gangs at my school, just lots of drugs and children with money to burn).

Aside from that, it's great that your daughter's school takes that proactive approach. If mine did, I probably wouldn't have to deal with so many imbeciles and racists throughout the course of any given day.

*edit* small grammatical error

Edited October 23, 2007 by Monroe

[mrtoad]

The issue is why they do not, and that has to do with the choices made by the Thai government (and establishment) on what is and is not going to be taught in Thai schools.

Yes, one only has to read any uncensored history books on WWII in to understand why the Thai government aren't too keen on discussing the role of Thailand at that time. Some fairly well educated Thais that I know, swear blind that Thailand fought the Japanese and were on the side of the Americans, however as they had declared war on the US and GB thats pushing it somewhat. However, what it does show is how the education system can change 'history' and the awareness of it's people by the selective way that it is taught.

[PeaceBlondie]

I would wish that this big stink about the Nazi program at one Thai secondary school, last year, has sent shock waves through the Thai educational establishment, enough to keep them from staging another such display of ignorance. But no, I am not aware that it has been discussed in any detail by more than a few Thais, and that was on farang websites or English language media. Did the Thai language press mention it? Has any Thai educator mentioned it, other than the director of the offending school when she wrote the letter to the Weisenthal Center?

Thanks to bina for explaining that even in Israel today, Thais don't know a Jew from a Gentile, or understand the first thing about world history outside Thailand.

[bina]

thank you all for taking the time to read my rather long and gobbled post...

i think that cultural expectations contour the way people see history/dates/time that passed/lessons learned... i once had to see a navajo movie that took forever (in my eyes anyway) since their sense of time passing is circular and not linear, blablabla... i couldnt keep track of what was going on as time seemed to move sideways and not forward or backward... the way someone or someones (a society) views its 'history' and marks something as 'important' develops from their sense of time, or what happens when someone dies/ i.e. if your culture is filled with ghosts that are as real to u as the guy next to u, pretty certain that your way of looking at history will be different than if u see dead people as gone for good. lessons to be learned also differ. i have tried to understand 'the moral of the story' from some tibetan animal folk stories, and basically, they had no 'firm' conclusion such as : the moral of the story is that if u do bad u get bad - or whatever moral of story we think should be ...

therefor i'm not sure that their way of dealing with history and LESSONS FROM HISTORY would be the same as ours. (this is just an example ) -- thai in general dont seem to caught up in dealing with dead people, no matter how they died. for instance, we (isreali jews) have the 7 day thingy, then the 30 day then the yearly for anyone that has died, then we have rememberance days for soldiers, for holocaust, for wars, for other dead people..and here where i live, these are very serious days (not parties and chanting but very solemn boring days when entertainment venues are closed, etc; . we have a cult of death tied in to history... what would be the thai equivalent??

well this just raises a lot of philisophical questions; and in our day and age, the specifics are not neccessary in school education, its the learning how to find the info, and how to process it that seems to be missing...

p.s. i remember my prussian teacher in my quaker high school making us do the great march in china complete with sacks of rice on our backs and barefoot; and other such re enactments of history to actually FEEL it...

well,

end of lectures its certainly been an interesting topic apart from the usual anti semitic blabla and i still cant understand why people call each other names on a forum; its virtual argueing for christ sake... like, in real life, would u actually drink coffee in my house and be nasty to me?? i think not...

bina

israel

[endure]

Thanks for posting Bina, you've offered an interesting perspective.

Monroe, you should not generalize on the whole of western education. My daughter's school in the UK covers the Nazis and the Hollocaust in great detail, not just for pupils at the school but also the school has a Parent evening in which the school offers parents the chance to undestand what is being taught, why and the impact it may have on our children.

Endure, repeating that Thais don't have an idea about Nazi/Hollocaust and Japanese WWII history is a waste of typing time, that has already been said and is central to the question I ask.

The issue is why they do not, and that has to do with the choices made by the Thai government (and establishment) on what is and is not going to be taught in Thai schools.

Why should they? Most countries teach a version of history that's directly relevant to their own past. Being educated in the UK has the advantage that, because of our past pilfering of large parts of the globe, we tend to be taught a worldwide version of history. WWII in Europe was of little direct consequence to the Thais. BTW my schooling in history in the UK made no mention at all of the Holocaust or WWII. It stopped at 1870.

[the gent]

Why should they? Most countries teach a version of history that's directly relevant to their own past. Being educated in the UK has the advantage that, because of our past pilfering of large parts of the globe, we tend to be taught a worldwide version of history. WWII in Europe was of little direct consequence to the Thais. BTW my schooling in history in the UK made no mention at all of the Holocaust or WWII. It stopped at 1870.

Thank you Endure, I was beginning to despair of anyone else grasping what occurred to me as blindingly obvious.

Unfortunately, the innate racism that was embedded in the 20thC western psyche still has its own lingering echo in the supposedly more enlightened times we currently inhabit in that most pundits here find it impossible to conceive of the notion that an alien society such as the Thai could or should be indifferent and insensitive to our historical baggage which we regard as of universal importance.

Is it really their conceit that on one hand blinds them to the reality of Vietnam, a war waged by allegedly civilized human beings in the name of democracy who universally regarded the people they were meant to liberate as no more than sub human ' slopes ', ' dinks ' and ' gooks ' yet on other allows them to wallow in the absurd belief that evil was subjugated on Hitler's death and that his victims will forever more be a monument preventing its resurgence ?

Incidentally, Bina is a wise old owl isn't she?

Edited October 24, 2007 by the gent

[Ulysses G.]

Thank you Endure, I was beginning to despair of anyone else grasping what occurred to me as blindingly obvious.

Well, at least two human beings on Thai Visa have mutated to the point that they "grasp" the gent's point of view on this matter.

[rgs2001uk]

[

Thanks for posting Bina, you've offered an interesting perspective.

Monroe, you should not generalize on the whole of western education. My daughter's school in the UK covers the Nazis and the Hollocaust in great detail, not just for pupils at the school but also the school has a Parent evening in which the school offers parents the chance to undestand what is being taught, why and the impact it may have on our children.

Endure, repeating that Thais don't have an idea about Nazi/Hollocaust and Japanese WWII history is a waste of typing time, that has already been said and is central to the question I ask.

The issue is why they do not, and that has to do with the choices made by the Thai government (and establishment) on what is and is not going to be taught in Thai schools.

Why should they? Most countries teach a version of history that's directly relevant to their own past. Being educated in the UK has the advantage that, because of our past pilfering of large parts of the globe, we tend to be taught a worldwide version of history. WWII in Europe was of little direct consequence to the Thais. BTW my schooling in history in the UK made no mention at all of the Holocaust or WWII. It stopped at 1870.

there are teachers in the uk now who are afraid to teach anything about the holocaust for fear of being labelled un pc, they may offend those whose religion has a different version of world events.

[teatree]

thank you all for taking the time to read my rather long and gobbled post...

i think that cultural expectations contour the way people see history/dates/time that passed/lessons learned... i once had to see a navajo movie that took forever (in my eyes anyway) since their sense of time passing is circular and not linear, blablabla... i couldnt keep track of what was going on as time seemed to move sideways and not forward or backward... the way someone or someones (a society) views its 'history' and marks something as 'important' develops from their sense of time, or what happens when someone dies/ i.e. if your culture is filled with ghosts that are as real to u as the guy next to u, pretty certain that your way of looking at history will be different than if u see dead people as gone for good. lessons to be learned also differ. i have tried to understand 'the moral of the story' from some tibetan animal folk stories, and basically, they had no 'firm' conclusion such as : the moral of the story is that if u do bad u get bad - or whatever moral of story we think should be ...

therefor i'm not sure that their way of dealing with history and LESSONS FROM HISTORY would be the same as ours. (this is just an example ) -- thai in general dont seem to caught up in dealing with dead people, no matter how they died. for instance, we (isreali jews) have the 7 day thingy, then the 30 day then the yearly for anyone that has died, then we have rememberance days for soldiers, for holocaust, for wars, for other dead people..and here where i live, these are very serious days (not parties and chanting but very solemn boring days when entertainment venues are closed, etc; . we have a cult of death tied in to history... what would be the thai equivalent??

well this just raises a lot of philisophical questions; and in our day and age, the specifics are not neccessary in school education, its the learning how to find the info, and how to process it that seems to be missing...

p.s. i remember my prussian teacher in my quaker high school making us do the great march in china complete with sacks of rice on our backs and barefoot; and other such re enactments of history to actually FEEL it...

well,

end of lectures its certainly been an interesting topic apart from the usual anti semitic blabla and i still cant understand why people call each other names on a forum; its virtual argueing for christ sake... like, in real life, would u actually drink coffee in my house and be nasty to me?? i think not...

bina

israel

Where was the anti-semetic blabla? I know the topic has been hevily expurgated so maybe I missed something.

[GuestHouse]

Unfortunately, the innate racism that was embedded in the 20thC western psyche still has its own lingering echo in the supposedly more enlightened times we currently inhabit in that most pundits here find it impossible to conceive of the notion that an alien society such as the Thai could or should be indifferent and insensitive to our historical baggage which we regard as of universal importance.

I've made a case for why I believe it is doing Thailand and Thais a diservice to deny them access to the history of the Nazis and the Holocaust. Not based on racism but on an observation of the similiarities between the regional political and ecconomic circumstances of Asia today and those of Europe at the turn of the 20th Century.

Care to takle those arguments rather than some nonesense about 'Western Psyche' and 'Inate Racism' (what ever that is)?

[the gent]

Frankly, stating the two spheres to be analogous in the circumstances you have outlined is plainly idiotic.

There are no useful lessons to be drawn from the holocaust by the Thai anymore than they should take note of the slaughter in Rwanda or the genocide against the Armenians. Such events may well dictate developments within the societies that spawned such atrocities but their significance is essentially unique and therefore of little value to others not afflicted by the social conditions so engendered.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Your inability to appreciate this puzzles me, particularly when one considers your posts elsewhere which generally suggest a reasonable level of intellectual acuity.

[alaina]

Frankly, stating the two spheres to be analogous in the circumstances you have outlined is plainly idiotic.

There are no useful lessons to be drawn from the holocaust by the Thai anymore than they should take note of the slaughter in Rwanda or the genocide against the Armenians. Such events may well dictate developments within the societies that spawned such atrocities but their significance is essentially unique and therefore of little value to others not afflicted by the social conditions so engendered.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Your inability to appreciate this puzzles me, particularly when one considers your posts elsewhere which generally suggest a reasonable level of intellectual acuity.

If the Thais start dressing as people from Rwanda or Armenians as fashion, then perhaps that too would be a reasonable thing for them to look into.

I think a few Americans learned about Buddhism after improperly using the image of the Buddha:

Would you offer the same excuse for these Americans that thought that this was okay now?

Edited October 24, 2007 by alaina

[the gent]

Mmm....not quite sure what points you are trying to make here but perhaps " different strokes for different folks " might be a reasonable view.

[Ulysses G.]

Where was the anti-semetic blabla? I know the topic has been hevily expurgated so maybe I missed something.

It has been deleted.

[PeaceBlondie]

Lots of anti-semitic remarks were removed, along with the expected rebuttals, etc. Carry on please.

[elkangorito]

Frankly, stating the two spheres to be analogous in the circumstances you have outlined is plainly idiotic.

There are no useful lessons to be drawn from the holocaust by the Thai anymore than they should take note of the slaughter in Rwanda or the genocide against the Armenians. Such events may well dictate developments within the societies that spawned such atrocities but their significance is essentially unique and therefore of little value to others not afflicted by the social conditions so engendered.

Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Your inability to appreciate this puzzles me, particularly when one considers your posts elsewhere which generally suggest a reasonable level of intellectual acuity.

If the Thais start dressing as people from Rwanda or Armenians as fashion, then perhaps that too would be a reasonable thing for them to look into.

I think a few Americans learned about Buddhism after improperly using the image of the Buddha:

Would you offer the same excuse for these Americans that thought that this was okay now?

Gent, I fully agree.

Alaina, do you wish to hold onto "tit for tat" ideals? To what end will this attitude serve?

When I was very young, my grandmother said to me, "If somebody says something bad to you & you feel upset, just remember that 'Sticks & stones can break your bones & names can never hurt you', & then you can feel better." How very, very, very, very true.

What is it with some people that they want everybody else to have "their" feelings? Why is it that some people are not happy unless others have the same ideas/ideals as themselves? What purpose is served by these things?

In case most of you haven't noticed, people die every day & under greatly varying situations. This is something that will go on forever. You have 2 clear choices;

1] get used to it & shut up; or

2] totally upset yourself & blame others for the way that you have CHOSEN to feel.

Which way is smart? Up to you!

[BalthazarBeefheart]

Thanks to bina for explaining that even in Israel today, Thais don't know a Jew from a Gentile, or understand the first thing about world history outside Thailand.

I don't normally like to get involved in this kind of thing - but I'm afraid Thais do know what a Jew is and their experience of them has not always been good - its probably only those nice young chaps from the Israeli army wanting to let their hair down a little. I don't think any of these Thais with bad experiences could really give a hoot about world history anyway - I cetainly don't.

Cheers BB

[taxexile]

What is it with some people that they want everybody else to have "their" feelings? Why is it that some people are not happy unless others have the same ideas/ideals as themselves? What purpose is served by these things?

i dont think people expect everybody else to share the same feelings , but when events in human history that have resulted in large numbers of needless deaths occur then those events should not be made light of by anybody , it is a matter of showing respect , nothing more.

when the event happened in recent history , and was a part of something as huge as the second world war ,then it becomes even more important to reflect on them , whether they directly affected you or not. human beings have emotions and it is impossible for people to not have some sense of sadness or a desire to show some feeling when considering massacres of huge numbers of people for no other reason than they didnt conform to some psychopaths opinion of what a human being should be like.

there but for the grace of god etc.etc.

history often repeats itself , and without some memory or understanding or knowledge of what happened before , we cannot understand or prepare ourselves or prevent what may come.

nobody expects the thais to directly empathise with the victims of massacres/holocausts that happened on the other side of the world , but some knowledge of them and an acceptance of their magnitude and the suffering involved should be mandatory in the history lessons of schoolchildren here ( and worldwide.)

are recent events in cambodia/vietnam part of the thai history syllabus , and i dont just mean a list of dates and the names of prime ministers and army generals , but how the actions of politicians and army generals and how they came to be in power , actually affects the lives of ordinary people.

when children can be made to understand these things , then some may take a bigger interest in the political events of their own country and when they reach voting age may actually give some thought when they pop their votes into the ballot box , instead of ignorantly trousering a 500b note and saying mai pen rai.

thats why i consider it important that events such as the rise of nazism and the holocaust should not be made into a carnival.

its nothing to do with which atrocity killed the most people , or israelis wallowing in their own grief , its to do with responsible teaching.

something that seems to be sadly lacking in many schools both here and elsewhere these days.

[taxexile]

but I'm afraid Thais do know what a Jew is

they may know what an israeli is , but most couldnt tell you the difference between a jew and a salt beef sandwich.

[elkangorito]

As a test, I will ask my students tomorrow, if they know anything about the Holocaust & Jews. Hopefully, the result won't fuel this whole ridiculous debate about Jews or otherwise.

In the meantime, this whole thread has been hijacked by certain people & things are now very much OFF TOPIC!!!

If gay people did such a thing to a thread (ie hijack it because of some underlying "gay" issue), how quickly do you think it would be closed?

Come on folks! This is not "jew vs the rest of the world". If some are that concerned about their religion, I would question their "faith" in such a religion. Would "some" like to be referenced against "other" religious fundamentalists with regard to "over reacting" to such petty things as "students in Nazi uniforms"?

[Ulysses G.]

Thanks to bina for explaining that even in Israel today, Thais don't know a Jew from a Gentile, or understand the first thing about world history outside Thailand.

I don't normally like to get involved in this kind of thing - but I'm afraid Thais do know what a Jew is and their experience of them has not always been good - its probably only those nice young chaps from the Israeli army wanting to let their hair down a little. I don't think any of these Thais with bad experiences could really give a hoot about world history anyway - I cetainly don't.

Cheers BB

My experience has been that the only thing most Thais know is that a lot of farangs tell them how bad Jews/Israelis are and so they call anyone that is rude or cheap an "Israeli" and are incorrect 99% of the time.

[Ulysses G.]

In the meantime, this whole thread has been hijacked by certain people & things are now very much OFF TOPIC!!!

If gay people did such a thing to a thread (ie hijack it because of some underlying "gay" issue), how quickly do you think it would be closed?

Come on folks! This is not "jew vs the rest of the world". If some are that concerned about their religion, I would question their "faith" in such a religion. Would "some" like to be referenced against "other" religious fundamentalists with regard to "over reacting" to such petty things as "students in Nazi uniforms"?

Personally, I was raised as a Roman Catholic and PeaceBlondie is not Jewish either.

You don't have to be Jewish to be offended by the legacy of the Klu Klux Klan and Adolph Hitler - even in disguise.

Edited October 25, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

Since el kangorito thinks it's on topic to discuss the childhood slogan, I'll do so. The slogan is, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." Slander and libel make names that always hurt. Internet forums provide us funky, false names that we hide behind and sometimes throw grievous insults at one another.

Granted, some Asian cultures view history in a different style than other cultures view it. Nevertheless, when a government sponsored Thai school chooses a theme for sports day, how could they possibly research and then allow a reenactment of the Third Reich? I suspect that Thailand doesn't intend to join the latter half of the 20th century, let alone the 21st century. It appears that the educators of Thailand have no intention to teach their children about the outside world.

[somtaamgaiyang]

This is much in the same way, when the stupid Osama Bin Laden tshirts were around a while ago. I took it to be that any wearer either didn't see the idocy in wearing them or was a supporter. Either way, it didn't offend me. However, it wouldn't take much of a histroy lesson to tie many of the problems in the south today to policies enacted after the holocaust.

However, when it is at a government funded school, at a sports day, this is a completely different issue. I am not pro or anti Jewish and I do worry occasionally that WW3 is on the way should anyone bomb Iran or Syria for supposed geo political aims. The difference is that I am pretty much free to read and see whatever I like from the internet or newspapers and make my own decisions about the rights and wrongs of the world.

Kids on the other hand in the hands of teachers are having their views of the world formed, and as such (unless they are amazingly talented young philosophers) need to have a considered view about issues such as the holocaust. As to whether Thais should care, an issue as large as this, which has managed to shape world politics for the last 60 odd years and has such a bearing on the world today, it will be interesting to see if the later poster's students know anything of the holocaust. Is Thailand immune? Well there is a war down south going on between Moslems and Buddhists so geopolitics is a daily issue in Thailand just as anywhere in the world.

It must indeed be a shame when these kids may or may not (I presume not) watch any international news and see Israelis bombing Palestine, or Iran threatening to to remove Israel from the map, or suicide bombers in Israel, Berlin style walls in the West bank, and THE PROBLEMS IN THE SOUTH and they ask their teacher "Why do they do this oh respected omniscient ajarn?"

To which the answer if Thai shouldn't give a dam_n about it would be "Mai bpen arai, it's just farang stuff, go and get your Nazi kit on dear, we have to march today!"

[bina]

my husband and most of the guys here arent bar girls or taxi drivers (thought they would like to do the latter probably)but poor guys from the agrarian parts of thailand... so i dont hold it against them for not knowing ( i remember an iowan girl roommate in college asking to see my horns)...

and probably like three quarters of the world most thai may have met or not met people of other religions but dont bother to keep them straight (this goes for my kids not sure what a 'christian ' is; they have a better idea of what a buddist is just cause of my husband and our discussions at home.

[alaina]

Gent, I fully agree.

Alaina, do you wish to hold onto "tit for tat" ideals? To what end will this attitude serve?

When I was very young, my grandmother said to me, "If somebody says something bad to you & you feel upset, just remember that 'Sticks & stones can break your bones & names can never hurt you', & then you can feel better." How very, very, very, very true.

What is it with some people that they want everybody else to have "their" feelings? Why is it that some people are not happy unless others have the same ideas/ideals as themselves? What purpose is served by these things?

In case most of you haven't noticed, people die every day & under greatly varying situations. This is something that will go on forever. You have 2 clear choices;

1] get used to it & shut up; or

2] totally upset yourself & blame others for the way that you have CHOSEN to feel.

Which way is smart? Up to you!

So you're saying:

1] Thais should get used to it and shut up or

2] Thais totally upset themselves and choose to be offended

Or you are saying that there are two standards of acceptable behavior... it's okay to insult X but not Y

Hmmm... how does that sound?

Due to the sensitivities and rules of this message board (and being that it is housed in Thailand) I cannot give the other examples of Thais getting upset about a person that was insulted even though it happened outside of Thailand.

Please feel free to trot out, "If you don't like it you should go home."

[Jingthing]

Imagine how quickly this thread would have died if it was about Bahais.

[bina]

ROFL....HYSTERICALLY........

most thai i know dont really have a clue; we have so many holidays here they cant keep them straight. (the holiday where we dont eat bread the holiday where we dont eat, etc)... also, every time my kids remind my husband s friends 'we dont eat pork' they think we are muslim....

of course those that work with israelis in thailand or those who are maybe more culturally exposed know more; then again, as i tried to say about that past iowan girl asking about my horns (her father was a minister btw) is that in any country there is a fairly large non educated or educated but not sophisticated or worldly group that have strong stereotypical notions about other people different from them, and also, have a general lack of historical knowledge or reasoning to know.....

i do get more upset from a western antisemite then i do from my uneducated thai associates and husband since my expectations are different (not higher just different)...

well, off to slaughter a bunch of christian children to make my bread with........)) joke , actually, its anon going to catch us some dogs... no wait, joke, umm...... well whatever, i'll think of some good stereotype soon.

on that theme my daughter just finished her army courseand today got her teaching soldier braid, and anon stood next to me during the national anthem, w/o a clue as to what was so important about the whole army ceremony....but suffered it silently witht two slight commentx: israelis: baaa laow (crazy).....as we photo and video'd the whole thing....and " thai army is better.."

go figure...

bina and anon

israel

[taxexile]

" thai army is better.."

sounds like your husband has a jewish sense of humour at least.