Have Any Of You Gals Lost Yourself?

[bina]

mssabai,

thats interesting as i am also an ex anthro/ethno major cross cultural concepts dadeedadeeda...

which means that i can participant/observe. unfortunately, that is the way i always am. i say unforutnate cause where i live if u dont totally participate than u become a marginal. i am a positive marginal on the kibbutz but not part of the core groups, not on the socially unacceptable groups either. the anglos for instance that still dont speak the lingo or understand most of the kibbutz/israeli mechanisms just eventually go back home/or separate and stick to the 'in america we do this' sort of thing. for us its detrimental since most of us originally came here not just because of partners but some sort of ideological idea so so 'merging' with the culture including clothes etc is part and parcel. marrying a thai foreign worker certainly raised eyebrows and caused grimaces here since that REALLY went against the social acceptance level.

i find that i do open my mouth and sound like , yes, an israeli woman horror instead of the hippie style american girl i was when i arrived here. on the other hand, some of my views are still apparently very american east coast as often men (always men ) will point out that i 'sound like an american female'... so obviously i havent lost my inner core of me, the bina that i was/is/always will be. but the outer coating is 'sugar coated for palatability' i guess u could call it. and that really is me also.

i wanted to mention the buddhism thing: buddhism, theravada buddhism, stresses individual action and thought so u dont 'lose' yourself (a zen thing maybe?), u develop yourself, but u adhere to the precepts in doing so. u can be a millionaire if u worked honestly to make the bucks. 'right work and right thought' so u can work in a good paying job as long as u dont harm, lie, cheat, steal or kill anyone or anything in the process. the 'ego' is not, as sheryl put it, the part that u are supposed to lose. u are supposed to do things cause they are 'right' and therefore they effect those around u properly. being selfish does affect people around u adversely, working hard and being pennywise doesnt. if u see what i mean. i've been a buddhist from a young age (raised in socialist jewish zionist family ) ) and now secular jewish cultural (mostly cause thats what everyone here does, u cant avoid the holidays w/o seeming to be a sociopath... but internal beliefs are mine, and now surprisingly in style (budjew)... i sort of pick and choose what works for me from multi cultures .

in relationships, i dont mind being a steel magnolia (the woman behind the man)... after being in the middle east for 20+ yrs, if u dont have a swinging set, then u are less listened to so u have to find other more subtle ways. sorry straightforward anglo feminist style doesnt work well here, even among the young women. thats the way it is here and at some point u get tired of fighting straight up front and have to resort to other techniques.

again, i think it has a lot to do with age, and personality and identity. some people are just more easily 'absorbed' in to a culture. btw, in israel, absorption is what everyone is aiming for,and those that dont absorb well, dont do well here. its the word of the day: absorption. (actually the word is 'to take root in').

one of the main problems of course is once a child is born. the cultural does and donts become much more polarized when raising a little girl or little boy: what religioun, how and what to study, chores, ways of speaking, etc. so you as a parent being more 'absorbed' makes it easier on the child in the culture. my kids often point out that i am 'too american' in certain of my aspects. because they are teenagers, anon's thainess doesnt really affect them. he does make comments like how my oldest will find a husband if she cant even clean her room, but my daughter told him she doesnt want a husband that cares how clean her room is, and that was that.

not sure if that was relavant but i got all interested in the subject. well off to work now. (got beaten up by a male sheep yesterday so his day of judgement is drawing near)...

bina

israel

[mssabai]

which means that i can participant/observe. unfortunately, that is the way i always am. i say unforutnate cause where i live if u dont totally participate than u become a marginal. i am a positive marginal on the kibbutz but not part of the core groups, not on the socially unacceptable groups either. the anglos for instance that still dont speak the lingo or understand most of the kibbutz/israeli mechanisms just eventually go back home/or separate and stick to the 'in america we do this' sort of thing. for us its detrimental since most of us originally came here not just because of partners but some sort of ideological idea so so 'merging' with the culture including clothes etc is part and parcel. marrying a thai foreign worker certainly raised eyebrows and caused grimaces here since that REALLY went against the social acceptance level.

So many interesting points...it's interesting that you put your 'positive marginality' down to your studies Or maybe you don't and I just read it wrong. I already mentioned how I put my reflexivity down to my studies but I am now wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg - am I just someone who enjoys staying 'neutral' to enable myself to slide between different groups easily or is it just that 3 years of study that gave me that edge. Well I am fairly sure it is the former and looking back into my life I have always been someone who has maintained groups of friends dispersed in different places and social circles as well as different nationalities. I pride myself on being able to slip into these groups easily but still I think maintaining my 'me'. I guess I am a social chameleon. When I discovered anthropology in my last year of high school I realised it was meant for me and ethnographic study was a focal point for me in the course and I eventually did my dissertation on it - and of course it now looks as if I have been conducting ethnographic research my whole life.

As you probably know there are some fascinating stories about anthropologists and their quests to maintain their own sense of self whilst 'going native' (I apologise about the phrasing) but notable is Colin Turnball. I reccommend anyone really intersted in this subject to read his books and also read about him. Fascinating crazy guy who has now been disowned by the anthropological estabishment but well worth a look.

PS - that is incredible that you received such negative views about your relationship. I really don't know much about kibbutz life but wonder why this relationship was so frowned about in an environment that I had alwasy assumed was incredibly open and accepting? Was it that he was simply a worker there and had not 'chosen' the kibbutz life? Would you have had the same reaction if you had married an american you had met outside of the kibbutz?

[seonai]

Amazing reading chaps!!! I think I sort of 'rebelled' when I realised I had been losing my 'self and did silly things like smoked cigarettes in public and crossed my legs when I wanted to etc. I also remember being really childish on a cross river ferry in Bkk and sticking my tongue out at all the Thais who were staring at me because I made this trip ever single day and every single day the people stared at me and every day I bowed my head and shut up...

Needless to say I have learned a lot about myself and I also have calmed into, I believe, a much better person. I had to stop studying Buddhism because of what Sheryl said, I was without a teacher and I got the wrong understanding of 'Annatta' - luckily I relised this before it went any further as I was meditating alone as well and started to give away all my possessions etc.

One day, when I am ready and find a good teacher again, I want to start meditation and practising Buddhism - one of my previous teachers (from Nakhon) died of TB and one is still the Abbot of the London Thai temple

[bina]

a social chameleon, thats me alright...

i was the way i was before i studied, obviously its how we are that affects our decision of what to study...i've always been able to slide among all: i even get the right inflections and accents in the language i speak, including hand and facial expressions of the women that i am with: sort of like speaking the slang of the street in the place u are... its wierd cause then my english comes out like a non english speaker when i speak with non english speakers and people think i'm faking it... i just sort of mirror what is around me. but of course my internal thoughts and reasoning is mine, not borrowed. turnball, yeah, i had to read him in uni also: ethical aspects of interference in the culture when doing an ethno or anthropolgical study.(based on some african group starving to death and the social cruelty etc...) i still have some of my uni books but his actually i think i gave to a second hand store. (went to uni in amherst mass. in 1980+, same time period?)

the thing is is that i think i have some mental switch that clicks in to action if i go in too deep somewhere that seems to my subconcious as dangerous. and then i withdraw or take a few steps back. thats probably the same reason i cant get fanatic (super intensive) about anything. the nearest intensive thing i've done is get re married and totally in love/lust whatever. my first marriage was more like : it seemed a good idea at the time.... i guess losing yourself is in a way going for something 100%, which i dont always do. i go as far as my warning bell lets me and then it goes gling gling gling and i do a double take to see where i am and where i am going. anon claims that i should be a buddhist nun (not cause of sexual disinterest but because i have this way of non engagement when needed.) i am sort of 'middle way all the way'. i'm awful at politics for that very reason. (another no no that makes people make faces at me in this very polarized society. but this is one of the very 'me' things that i am just really disinterested in the politics around me and in this i wont 'change my colours')

what a fun topic...!!

mssabai:

environment that I had alwasy assumed was incredibly open and accepting

not an accurate view: our particular place, high on a mountain top, has a mountain top personality: fortress like and rather xenophobic. most people here like the norm, or folks that are like them, small town mentality. they appreciate exotic and unusual but only in food and travel, not actually living among them. my husband and i are about as exotic as u can get. i'm not even naturally rebellious, i just chose my own path this time round. but every kibbutz has its own personality; the majority are small townish xenophobic. yes if he were european non jewish it would have been less problematic. at least 'they' look like us. or ethiopian since people have gotten used to black skin and braids. russian is ok also if u leave out the vodka... but thai!!! well maybe had he been japanese in a suit it would have been ok also. or a japanese woman. filapina female is even ok. but male! thai! he probably will eat the kibbutz dogs. but thats an other story. not for this thread. same sex european would probably have been (and has been) more 'accepted'.

seonai: u stuck your tongue out at them!!??? ROTFL

bina

Edited November 7, 2007 by bina

[kat]

Amazing reading chaps!!! I think I sort of 'rebelled' when I realised I had been losing my 'self and did silly things like smoked cigarettes in public and crossed my legs when I wanted to etc. I also remember being really childish on a cross river ferry in Bkk and sticking my tongue out at all the Thais who were staring at me because I made this trip ever single day and every single day the people stared at me and every day I bowed my head and shut up...

I can appreciate that, Seonai. Thanks for your honesty. I have similar incidents of sometimes cracking under the double standards of politeness, like confronting restaurants in BKK that would seat men and couples ahead of me after being there first.

[seonai]

Bina what is ROTFL please

[kat]

I'm not Bina, but it's an acronym for "rolling on the floor laughing"