Have Any Of You Gals Lost Yourself?

[seonai]

I was wondering if any of the women out there involved in Thai life/romance have ever 'lost' themselves a bit.. I have... at least twice, sort of forgotten my own values and kind of let myself totally go along with thai style - sometimes related to a man and sometimes not. After many years in Thailand i 'adopted' the culture so much that i lost my own personality - not a good move. What's your experience?

[Boo]

as you know from our chats about this, I am totally against this habit women have of losing their own personalities & value system to men. It happens mainly in LOS for the sake of "culture" or excusing things as being "thai style" but it's bullshit basically. If I am with someone then they have to accept my culture & that I do things English Style All these comment I hear on thai visa from women (& a lot of men too) on "oh thats what thai's do" or "it's thia culture so I have to go along with it" doesn't wash with me. Yes we should be culturally sensitive but not to the degree of acceptig things that we wouldn't dream of doing in our own environment.

I can though see how easy it is to do, especially if you are are in an isolated environment or not around any close freinds who can & will tell you when you are losing it. I have had to step in a couple of times when I see mates making these mistakes but, sadly, most people wont or don't want, to listen.

[Boo]

oh & yes it has happened to me too but luckily I have my mums voice too ingrained in my thoughts to have put up with it for too long (Seonai, you've met her so you know what I'm talking about )so snapped out of it after a couple of weeks of being a loon.

[Sheryl]

It's never happened to me in over 2 decades here, but I think it is because I have always been here for purely individual reasons (work, personal preference) and not living with or married to a man.

Actually what you describe I think may have less to do with Thailand than with problems women often face in the course of marriage or long-term live-in relationships. I've heard married women say more or less what you did even though they were married to a man from their own culture and had not left home...,.they just got so caught up in the man's world (his friends/colleagues/family etc) that they lost themselves.

[seonai]

Yes see your points, both, the first time it happened to me was not connected to a man tho, it was Buddhism and the whole SE Asia thing. It's an interesting topic... I've never done it in any other country, only here. Boo's right tho, it's just not a good move to lose your identity. She's an absolute star at being herself despite having such strong and permanent Thai connections

I think the main part for me is the language actually, I 'feel' quite Thai when I speak Thai and often answer crosswords in Thai etc

[girlx]

have never even come close to taking on the cultural aspects of those around me, and wouldn't expect them to take on mine either. in a relationship, it is all about understanding and compromise.

[silapin]

Yes - I too have been lost and then returned! When I first arrived I was 22 and lived with in-laws - husband was working away for 6months.

I really started asserting myself when my children were born 4 years after and 'came of age' a few years after that.

Partly as a consequence I know lots about Thai culture and speak Thai fluently. However as a consequence of 'rediscovering' myself, I can analyse Thai (and Farang) culture more effctively and usefully.

Very interesting to hear other people's stories - I have never discussed this with anyone!

[seonai]

Silapin I totally understand you. Sometimes it's not easy, especially if you are alone when you come to thailand and then meet a genuine partner/husband (not fly by night bars guys who prey on farang women). You can feel that you are being absorbed into the family and the whole culture thing. I didn't do it 'on purpose' it just happened sort of by osmosis. I understand Boos comments and she's a friend so I understand her too... but I have lost myself at times in thai culture. It wsn't actually to do with a man as I said the first time. But when you are married there are certain expectations from the family etc etc. My first 'loss of self' was in Bkk. I was really into Buddhism, teaching monks in a university there and living a very quite life compared to my life in London as a journalist on a national newspaper. I just got absorbed by everything and felt 'at home' - in fact, far more 'at home' than I ever feel in Britain. Peculiar feeling.

Anyway I could bang on about this for ever, but Silapin (are you an artist then?) please talk to me or the forum if you need a chat nah...

[bina]

not sure if the question meant on a cultural level or a personal interpersonal level (expectations of husband/wife; friends, etc>)...

this reminds me of the 'going native' thread the men had a while ago...

bina

[IMA_FARANG]

I was wondering if any of the women out there involved in Thai life/romance have ever 'lost' themselves a bit.. I have... at least twice, sort of forgotten my own values and kind of let myself totally go along with thai style - sometimes related to a man and sometimes not. After many years in Thailand i 'adopted' the culture so much that i lost my own personality - not a good move. What's your experience?

Hope you don't mind on me commenting on this from my male persepective. What you are talking about is not a uniquely female thing. I have known farang men married to Thai women, who seem to make an attempt to "out-Thai" their Thai wives. Not that it is a bad thing to try to appreciate the culture you live in, but you do have to stay true to whatever the values you believe in. I do find it rather sad, when a husband feels he needs to be more Thai than his Thai wife, or else his wife won't respect him.

But I shouldn't make any negative comments about people and their relationships, I guess. Whatever gets you through the night. Who am I to judge them?

[seonai]

No IMA it's true what you say. But I am trying to say it didn't hppen to me because I purposely tried to change myself... I can only think I was desperate not to do the wrong thing and somehow that led me to these changes. An example would be... I started my life in Thailand with monks so I quickly learning all the bowing, sitting properly and respecting physical distance rules. Next it was respect for different age groups and before I knew it I'd almost forgotten Seonai from the past who was quite opinionated and could hold intelligent conversations at will. I let myself become a smiling, ultra polite person who hid her true feelings.

Now I am not saying that this is necessarily Thai, but I lost parts of myself I am sure... and I don't know why

Bina I meant both really - to be really confusing

[Boo]

Ahh yes the balance between what is considered polite thai manners & still being able to hold your own in a situation where a thai may just smile & seeth inwardly but where a westerner would confront it & clear the air.

It's a balancing act I am still trying to learn as I refuse to just put up with crap because it would be considered "not thai" to complain or confront but it is difficult as I DO try to be cuturally aware but have to use my own internal measure as to when the cultural sensitivity has been pushed to the limit.

[bina]

everyone has to internalize value/actions whatever in the culture they are living in; i have lived on kibbutz for 21 of my 45 yrs, so i cant even remember really how 'american' i ever was; there are some things (safety, politeness) that are still very american (my kids accuse me of being too american in that i dont make a big loud ruckus if i dont get what i want or ordered), but many many things are really israeli kibbutznik just cause, well, i gave birth and raised my kids here, they are going thru the army, my friends and i have gone thru the stuff u go thru when u live in a country surrounded by the country's people, u cant help but absorb thru osmosis w/o consiously trying to change to fit in...unless u live in an ex pat's ghetto area where others like u dress speak and act like u

examples such as the thai workers here for 7 yrs but never never become anything like israelis, or very rarely anyway, since they live eat dress work and speak thai even though they are here

in any situation there are more 'me's' then one: in the daily kibbutz life, i am the 'discussing babies, clothing and food w/o making waves' person; with my anglo friends we have a different way of discussing things; when among the thai workers i'm super conscious that i am a farang woman married to a thai therefore have also status (i'm a boss) and also i cant just up and 'boogie down ' with the guys since thats not a respectable thing to do ( a married thai woman wouldnt do that, an israeli woman would). i dont really care. i dont find its a hardship. my RED LINES i do not cross for anything regardless of what culture i am in, the small stupid things i dont really care about.

a lot of the 'losing yourself' is about how strong your own personal identity is apart from those around u; or what u feel makes up your identity... i'll tell u a little story: on yom kippur in israel, no one, but no one drives a car: even the most non religious people really dont, they may eat at home, but they wont eat in public (its a fasting holiday) and they wont drive. well, we did. i took a car from the kibbutz and husband and i drove to some visit some thai workers. and i felt really really wierd. i know its called conditioning (brain washing really). i've been conditioned for 21 yrs that on yom kippur YOU DONT DRIVE. its not a legal rule. its just not done. now, in the states, i never had a problem driving on yom kippur even if i went to synagogue!, here, i've just gotten totally used to it. i didnt feel guilty or something, it just felt very wierd to do something that i havent done 21 years cause EVERYONE does that (not driving). i'd forgotten that in the real world (that is, secular countries), this is just an other religious holiday, thats all. i suddenly realized that i had a lot of self limiting actions based on what was done or not done here, but in other worlds and other times, they are meaningless actions. and i have gotten totally used to them to the point that when i am in other countries i automatically react as if i'm here (preparing everything before friday evening cause shabbat and then everything is closed etc... what fun in thailand when i could forget up that !!) cause this is waht i have gotten used to doing.

so bowing to monks, respecting the old folks, smiling and being angry, if u are so used to doing those things, u've just gotten used to the particular country youre in. its not getting lost, as these are like layers of clothing that u put on or take off depending on the situation like putting on a head covering when going to the wailing wall in jerusalem. if this sample of religious coercion really ticks u off, then dont do it or dont go. if not, then put on a hat do your thing, and then continue with your own life.

its the RED LINE actions that proclaim if u are 'lost' or not: how u react to racism, how u react to others around u -if u were a generous person, than u should still probably be a generous person; your intelligence doesnt change although how u show it or use it might change to fit the situation - -- all in all, if u are in an area where everyone belongs to the kukluxklan and u are against that, then u wouldnt join if u were truly against what they represent ( just an example ), even if all your neighbors and friends were to join up ... (disregarding if u would continue to be friends with these types anyway, but u might, just like i have some very right wing friends, i ignore their politics and focus on other aspects, since they arent vigilantes)....

rather long and loopy not sure i managed to make my point, but trying>>

anyway seonai (didnt u do things that made it easier to 'be' in your family u married into, that maybe others wouldnt have done -- referring to a different thread in the health section) or am i confusing u with someone else??

bina

israel

[seonai]

Boo is really good at 'balancing' and she taught me a lot so now I try to be me first and blend in when necessary :D

[Ave]

I personally don't find it either negative nor positive to be absorbed into another culture to the point of nearly becoming a native. It's actually a skill of adaptation and sometime age too.

Certainly it's how naturally we behave, how true to ourselves and others that counts the most. I have lived in London for over ten years and it has been unexpectedly so easy for me to learn about the culture, the language and everything else that I ended up contemplating the idea of applying for a British passport, which I didn't in the end. I couldn't say that I snapped out of all this but after moving to Thailand four years ago I realised that I actually don't belong to any country or culture in particular which I think is a great thing. Now that I'm a bit older I feel more confident in being who I want to be while letting myself be absorbed by yet another culture.

Just enjoy your Thainess but don't forget your roots, that's what I keep reminding myself.

[seonai]

Great post Bina dear, I see what you mean and yes, it is the same me who posted about 'circumcision' in Health. I sometimes wanted to post it here but felt the response would be too much for a sensitive soul. You are right about many things you said, since we are on the topic, I wear a headsquare when I go to the village because the local ladies know I am married to a local man and they ask 'where's your headscarf' when I don't wear it. I wear it also because it pleases my husband and I totally respect Thai and Muslim ideals about dressing politely. I know some women will think that this is ridiculous but I see it as fitting in to the society you have chosen to live in. For example, would anyone reading this go to visit a Thai temple wearing shorts and a vest? Probably not, so you are doing the same as me.

What I meant in the OP was about psychologically losing bits of your beliefs - but the biggest confusion is that Buddhism promotes the idea of 'no self' - hence my massive confusion. Ultimately tho I have to go back to Boo agaon and just say that she managed to 'ground' me on this point... oh so in depth...

[Andiamo]

Great post Bina dear, I see what you mean and yes, it is the same me who posted about 'circumcision' in Health. I sometimes wanted to post it here but felt the response would be too much for a sensitive soul. You are right about many things you said, since we are on the topic, I wear a headsquare when I go to the village because the local ladies know I am married to a local man and they ask 'where's your headscarf' when I don't wear it. I wear it also because it pleases my husband and I totally respect Thai and Muslim ideals about dressing politely. I know some women will think that this is ridiculous but I see it as fitting in to the society you have chosen to live in. For example, would anyone reading this go to visit a Thai temple wearing shorts and a vest? Probably not, so you are doing the same as me.

What I meant in the OP was about psychologically losing bits of your beliefs - but the biggest confusion is that Buddhism promotes the idea of 'no self' - hence my massive confusion. Ultimately tho I have to go back to Boo agaon and just say that she managed to 'ground' me on this point... oh so in depth...

I agree with Seonai, I enjoyed reading your post Bina.

Seonai, may I ask (if it's not too personal...), have you converted to Muslim too? Just wondered and if so, is that why you may perhaps feel you have lost something of yourself... No probs if you don't wanna discuss! Would be interested to hear though!

[bina]

thanx... ))

[seonai]

Great to see a wee smile on Bina's face

Andiamo I had to convert to marry but I don't follow, I read a little about it but I am mostly athiest. As for losing something

They don't actually cut anything off thank heavens - reluctant to say to much publically... but I can laugh about it now

[Andiamo]

Great to see a wee smile on Bina's face

Andiamo I had to convert to marry but I don't follow, I read a little about it but I am mostly athiest. As for losing something

They don't actually cut anything off thank heavens - reluctant to say to much publically... but I can laugh about it now

Sorry, I didn't make myself V. clear - it's late! Gonna send you a PM tomorrow night! To be continued!

Ciao

[kat]

as you know from our chats about this, I am totally against this habit women have of losing their own personalities & value system to men. It happens mainly in LOS for the sake of "culture" or excusing things as being "thai style" but it's bullshit basically. If I am with someone then they have to accept my culture & that I do things English Style All these comment I hear on thai visa from women (& a lot of men too) on "oh thats what thai's do" or "it's thia culture so I have to go along with it" doesn't wash with me. Yes we should be culturally sensitive but not to the degree of acceptig things that we wouldn't dream of doing in our own environment.

I can though see how easy it is to do, especially if you are are in an isolated environment or not around any close freinds who can & will tell you when you are losing it. I have had to step in a couple of times when I see mates making these mistakes but, sadly, most people wont or don't want, to listen.

oh & yes it has happened to me too but luckily I have my mums voice too ingrained in my thoughts to have put up with it for too long (Seonai, you've met her so you know what I'm talking about )so snapped out of it after a couple of weeks of being a loon.

I have to concur with this absolutely and unequivocally. I will completely respect the dress and polite customs of another culture, have no problem covering up for a partner within an inter-cultural relationship, but cultural consideration goes two ways, as do the compromises. There is absolutely no way I could ever lose or compromise my core self within the context of a relationship, or anywhere. Ironically, I am in total agreement with Boo, but have arrived at it from apparently opposite circumstances, one in which I watched my mother lose herself.

[seonai]

Cool Andiamo, look forward to it x

[Sheryl]

This is a very interesting thread!

I was reminded of it a few days ago when my Cambodian "niece" , in recounting her recent history to someone else, described a rough patch she went through a few years back as "losing myself". It happened when she first came to study in Thailand, living away from her family. She was studying in an international college and had attended an international hiogh school in Cambodia so I don't think the international multi-cultural environment per se was a problem. However, being away from her family was; she has 3 siblings and they are all very close. In addition, she was unable to join the Cambodian "clique" at the college because they were all Christian converts and she wasn't, and they snubbed her accordingly. In HS, altho she had friends of other nationalities, she was very much a part of the Cambodian group. In other words, her sense of herself was very much tied to her membership in her family and her culture, and being suddenly cut off from both left her feeling alienated and adrift. She coped by trying to fit into a new "family", unfortunately consisting of a bunch of very disturbed kids who were equally alienated and had other problems beside...and as a result had a very miserable year as did I. Our relationship was strained for a while, not only because of the stunts she was pulling (I lived in dread of the next phone call from the Dean) but also because I just couldn't understand what her problem was. With time I came to accept that she had very much a group sense of identity and that living apart from family was deeply traumatic for her...and she learned to have a more independent sense of self. So we've met in the middle and are very close again; she's living on her own (at a different college) and feeling proud of her new found sense of independence, but I take care to spend every weekend with her if possible so that she still feels connected to family.

In her case there was no relationship involved but otherwise I think it has a lot of similarities to some of the stories here. As Bina said, a lot depends on how strong a person's sense of personal identity is (as opposed to identity as member of a family, culture or other group). This ios very different from person to person.

In my case I have always had a very strong sense of individual identity apart from any group, a legacy from growing up in a severely abusive/dysfunctional family (and maybe also just my temperment). So my sense of self really isn't any different no matter where I am and I honestly don't feel any more or less foreign in my home country or in a foreign one, it's al the same for me. But I realize I am unusual in this. Also, while it makes me very well suited for expat life, it is not an altogether good thing; I was over 50 before I was able to "belong" to a family at which point I realized that I had in fact been missing something valuable.

[Girlaboutglobe]

This is a great idea for a post, Seonai, I think it's pretty relevant. When I first arrived Thailand about six months ago I gave this quite a bit of thought because I noticed my mind working overtime frantically picking up on subtleties of behaviour and found myself emulating them, without having made a conscious decision to do so. I guess at the core of the matter is that humans have a massive capacity for adapting to new situations and fitting in; group dynamics is an important survival instinct. The most extreme example is total immersion in another culture, but as Sheryl said most people have done it to some degree at work and in personal relationships. I suppose that because it is such an important instinct it often runs away with itself unchecked, depending of course on your personal experiences, as some have mentioned. At the end of the day I guess there are costs and benefits on both sides, certainly being fully integrated into your environment is handy in many ways, but then there can be quite a lot of loss of freedom of action and thought if you take it too far; on the other hand if you refuse to "fit in" you can end up really isolated and unhappy. Perhaps it's simply a personal choice that one should consider carefully: how much of a group identity should I cultivate and how much idividuality should I retain? Maybe it's a question that we should ask whether we're in a new culture or any other situation. I lost myself once at a job and once in an intimate relationship. Perhaps because of that I was more aware when I noticed myself trying to fit in in Thailand, it's not a mistake I'd like to make again. For me, as many of you said, I won't compromise on the stuff that's really important to me, the rest they can have. Again, really relevant post, Seonai, it's interesting to hear other's experiences!

[AlexLah]

Just try to be yourself.

Please do not think that now you live in another country you have to change the way you are.

Be yourself that is all I can say,

[seonai]

Thanks Girlaboutglobe for your insightful experience story, that's what i was meaning by starting this thread. It can happen in many situations (losing yourself a little bit/compromise) in relationships, travel, jobs, study... and it's not that those who 'lose' themselves are weak it's just that somehow we feel the need to fit in. But it is important to become aware of it and realise that's what's happening at some point. I think what happened to me was exagerated because I was studying Buddhism at the time and Buddhism sort of says there is no self. That the self is just a belief system and we are all transient beings.. but now I feel like, in order to survive, I can still be flexible but i also have to realise that my 'self' is made up of things I find comfortable so to give them up in Thailand is a bit silly really...

[Girlaboutglobe]

Thanks Seonai. I can only imagine that your personal experience was a situation where it would have been extremely difficult to retain a sense of self; not only were the pressures situational, but you were actually heavily involved with a doctrine that reinforced the natural tendencies that accompany cultural immersion. I wouldn't doubt that the experience, if somewhat disturbing, really increased your awareness of who you are in the end. Incidentally, if you don't mind sharing, how did you react when you realized that you weren't comfortable with the loss; and also once you had "found yourself" again, how much of what you learned of Buddhism did you decide to take with you?

[Sheryl]

Seonai,

The "no self" aspect of Buddhism is the most complex and also the most easily misunderstood. Partly this is because it is impossible to understand at an intellectual level, it can only be understood through deep meditation practice over many years. And partly this is a problem of translation. "Self" as it is meant in Buddhism (atta in Pali) is in no way analogous to the western pschyological concept of the ego, but due to language problems it iften gets assumed to be, which creates all manners of problems and confusions for westerners.

A healthy ego in the western psychological sense is very necessary, in fact would have to be there first in order to be able to undertake the practice necessary to comprehend the truth of anatta ("no atta"). And people who have developed that understanding -- whether partially or fully, altho the latter is pretty few people! -- still maintain their healthy egos, again meaning ego in the psychological sense.

[mssabai]

Maybe it's because I did anthropology at college but I find that whilst I am adapting in subtle ways to thai culture, I feel that I am also able to look at myself doing this from afar in an ethnographic way, and I am finding this really interesting. I feel that this will in the future give me a level of protection against losing my 'self ' entirely. I also benefit from having some excellent friends here from similar backgrounds to me, all of whom are living here too, who help to ground me. I do though spend every weekend at my boy friends parents and am gaining an appreciation of exactly how hard it would be for a western woman to be immersed in that culture full time and perhaps if I was I would lose the academic interest that I am currently taking in my 'immersion' and instead just become immersed.

For the most part the aspects that I find myself adapting to are all things that I actually have a lot of respect in. Elders, wai, positioning of your body (ie not walkingover people) etc are all things that I feel develop a mutual respect within people. Ideas about the head and the feet I am not always sensitive to but I try and resepct as much as possible (recently got a smacked leg for crossing my legs at the knees at a funeral within a house as my foot was pointing at the shrine 10 meters away!) Religous areas I respect but only adhear to if it is socially neccessary. For instance I will sit correctly at the temple or religious event, however will not grab etc as I feel this is a form of worship. Dress, food etiquette and like, respecting the cultural mores in environments where otherwise it would offend I feel is part and parcel of living within another culture. We have our own mores in the west and we rarely give people a break because they are from another culture. Have you ever moaned about a foreigner for being rude for their lack of 'please' or 'thankyous'?

....however, and I know that I have seen this conversation before a few time - the one area I am thoroughly ashamed to say I do seem to be losing a sense of my own values (or I should say not exactly losing, but fighting a constant battle) is of course in relationships with the less-fairer sex. This has been the topic of many drawn out conversations with my friends and I could talk about it until I am blue in the face but when yourself saying or agreeing to things like "well I wouldn't care that much, if he hadn't called her afterwards" and "he didn't exactly beat her up, he only hit her in the face once" you really have to worry....all berations greatfully accepted....

[Misty]

For example, would anyone reading this go to visit a Thai temple wearing shorts and a vest?

That got me thinking. The answer is of course no, but then I wouldn't wear shorts and a vest in a church back home, either. Would I have done so some 15 years ago when I lived there? No, but then it wasn't that acceptable to do so then as I guess it may be now.

I find I'm slightly out of step with the popular culture back home, similar to being slightly out of step with Thai culture. That's okay by me, since I'm pretty happy to be who I am. But if I was happy to accept whatever culture I found myself 100%, then that would be okay too--the important thing is that it should be my decision rather than something forced on me out of fear of the consequences.

BTW, IMHO wearing headscarves should be just fine if that's what you choose! My grandmother wore them as a Christian girl in Eastern Europe. I've seen some lovely versions of them that I'd be happy to wear--possibly not a bad solution to bad hair days (or for some people no hair days), either... : )