Older Farang And Young Thai

[Scott]

Relationships are going to vary from couple to couple. You need to find the mutual ground that works for you. Some folks view monogomy as an absolute--a deal breaker--other's have open relationships. Some folks just don't want to know (at least any details) of non-monogomous relationships. The difficult emotion to deal with is jealousy. Some people have a fair amount of emotion (affection) in their sexual liaisons and others can have casual sexual contact with very little emotion.

I don't particularly mind sharing a body, but the mind and soul I want to belong to me!

[midas]

Relationships are going to vary from couple to couple. You need to find the mutual ground that works for you. Some folks view monogomy as an absolute--a deal breaker--other's have open relationships. Some folks just don't want to know (at least any details) of non-monogomous relationships. The difficult emotion to deal with is jealousy. Some people have a fair amount of emotion (affection) in their sexual liaisons and others can have casual sexual contact with very little emotion.

I don't particularly mind sharing a body, but the mind and soul I want to belong to me!

Scott - this is a very interesting point and I agree with your differentiation !

[Navalator]

I am 75 years young and my boy friend is 25 years old. We have been together day and night for more than 4 years. Still have not had a serious fight, still find each other sexy and we spend long hours in intellectual conversation and explore our environment extensively. We both are very well education and in professional positions. That may help but in my humble opinion age differentials are not the poblem: it is experience and intelligence differentials that count for the nagative relationship. One can offset the other and equalize. That model has worked for us.

[Rionoir]

One of my best friends in college in the US was this really nice looking hispanic guy who was about 20 years old. His BF, and his type was, in his own words: "fat, old men" I don't know if you're fat, or want to call yourself old quite yet, but hey... be glad you found a guy who likes whatever you are and go with it. Self-confidence is very attractive... lack of it and constantly wondering why ur BF is with you will show to him and is not so attractive.

There are many people in this world who are attracted to individuals many years older than themselves... and if you haven't been giving this boy money from the start (it doesn't sound like you have), then I think you have stumbled upon one of them. Enjoy it.

[peekint]

1. Fall in love and enjoy it.

2. If heartache comes, deal with it.

3. Don't do anything foolish financially, but don't be a Scrooge.

Live is for living. Without the possibility of pain, there is no possibility of joy.

[William_R]

While there are always exceptions, I believe relationships between farang and Thai fall into three different categories.

1) Both parties are financially or career sound and true love, as we define it in western culture, is a reality. However, the Thai may very well be looking at "face" or social status as one, but not the only, deciding factor in entering the relationship. While I do not think age difference is necessarily a deciding factor, I doubt seriously most Thai boys in their late teens or early twenties are candidates for this type of a relationship, particularly when the age difference is significant. The fact that a boy has a job, and he's not a money boy, has nothing to do with his probable interest in climbing the ladder through a relationship with an older wealthier farang.

2) The Thai boy is in his late teens or early twenties, but most likely 22 or older. He is not a money boy and would be offended at the suggestion his intentions are monetary. He does work, but doesn't make a lot of money, does not have a college degree, and there is little hope he will ever climb very high both socially and financially. In all likely hood he has a family with financial needs, and he would very much like to help them. He is not interested in a free ride for the rest of his life, but a relationship with a wealthy farang, of any age, could be the ticket to a better life, that he makes for himself. In other words, get a degree and become financially and socially self sufficient. The likely hood of his genuinely loving you is very high, but it is that cold hearted or practical minded love mentioned in an earlier post.

3) The Thai boy is most likely, to one degree or another, a money boy. He is poor, may or may not have a job, and has little or no aspirations of bettering himself...regardless of what he tells you. He is in his late teens or twenties and looking for someone to take care of him and his family. Assuming he is a good and honest boy, and many many are, he is happy to take care of your every need in return for financial security, for however long it lasts. If you meet when he is 18-20 he may, with age and encouragement, decide to better himself, but you should not be frustrated with him if he never does.

Someone has already pointed out that each relationship is uniquely different, and I would add that is because each individual is uniquely different. This is why it is difficult to give specific advice in these situations. I'll admit It is a bit unfair to try and put people (relationships) in boxes (categories) like this, but I think you have to. Just understand they are very general, and only serve as a starting point in evaluating the situation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the categories I've presented. They are only important in loosely evaluating the type of relationship you are about to enter. And in doing so, you can decide if it is the type of relationship you can be comfortable and happy with. Even if you decide at a later date you can not be happy with the type of relationship you selected, at least you entered it without blinders on.

Some additional food for thought...

Thai boys are very much aware that a relationship, particularly those that fall into categories 2 and 3, can end suddenly and without warning. Therefore, their decisions, while in the relationship, tend to be based on the immediate rather than long-term. They have all been told stories about the farang BF that suddenly dumped his Thai boy for a better model, or just up and left the country, leaving the boy with nothing but a broken heart.

I'm not sure if I'm stepping into forbidden territory here, so what I am about to say is intentionally vague. Boys between the ages of 20 and 22 may be facing the possibility of having to dedicate two years of their live, beginning at age 22, to a greater cause. This could be a motivating factor in wanting a relationship with a wealthy farang, particularly if he is around the age of 20. If what I've said is out of line, I hope the moderator will just delete this paragraph, as its taken me a very long time to write this post.

If you are in a relationship, that has a significant age gap, you must be willing to give the boy his freedom. He needs to socialize with other Thais, both male and female, closer to his age. But its not just about age. He needs some time to socialize with Thais period, and not have to accommodate the English only speaking farang BF. This is particularly important with boys that fall into categories 2 and 3. I mention this, because the OP expressed concerns over infidelity. I think its more important to address the boy's social needs. Put simply, you need to give him his space. If you don't he will almost certainly leave you.

Contrary to earlier posts, it is not uncommon for boys, particularly in category 3, to have a Thai BF or GF on the side. The likely hood of you ever knowing about it is slim to none.

If you pay the boy for sex one or more times before entering into a relationship, it will have an influence on how that relationship evolves. It will forever be tied to that initial transaction. I can not offer examples, but can assure you the relationship will always be transactional.

I realize some may take issue with all or part of what I've said in this post. I offer it as one more opinion on the subject. Take it or leave it...its how I see things.

[midas]

1. Fall in love and enjoy it.

2. If heartache comes, deal with it.

3. Don't do anything foolish financially, but don't be a Scrooge.

Live is for living. Without the possibility of pain, there is no possibility of joy.

Thanks peekint ! Yes I think your pragmatic approach is very true-

I always think of " it is better to have loved and lost than never to have

loved at all " ....................

[Junglejumbo]

"And he might be looked upon as the family provider. If you can provide that financial security, you will be honestly loved and admired by everyone in the family"Farang Prince.

This depends on the family in question. For the majority of country folk this is true, but if you're talking about a money boy, you may well find they come from a family of prostitutes and they're hard pieces and will never really like you, no matter how much you give them and how kind you are to them.

[phayao]

"And he might be looked upon as the family provider. If you can provide that financial security, you will be honestly loved and admired by everyone in the family"Farang Prince.

For the majority of country folk this is true.

I entirely agree with you, this is my case.

I've noticed that some "falang" in Thailand, mainly those over 55 and with little education, treat their TBF (or TGF) as possesions (similar as some money-boys/girls treat their "falang" as trophies). They are very wrong and although their relationships may we rewarding sexually in the short term, they are prune to failure, leaving very bitter resentments in both sides.

If you are looking for sexual gratification for your money, regardless of your age, looks, education or sexual orientation, there are many thousands of boys and girls (and anything in between) in this country ready for the task. But if your intention is to establish a lasting relationship, it has to be based in a more complex interchange than money-for-sex.

I am in very happy relationship (actually we're legally married) that has lasted over 16 years now and I am 25 years older than him. My firm believe is that respect and support is the foundation, but also to give each other a space for freedom and individual development is essential.

[Jingthing]

William R, thanks for your post. Yes, they are harsh generalizations, but still relevant to alot of real world situations.

I find that when I was a tourist I was fine with category 3s, but now will only bother meeting category 2s.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Jingthing

[jerry921]

On an english-language gay-thai dating website a 19 year old thai has filled in the section "my ideal guy" with: "I am looking for a good and rich guy who stupid and die early , juts kidding", while a someone else on the same site describes himself as "Rich Fat No Good Heart Farang".

Sounds like honesty's breaking out all over.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd add a category 0) to William's list, though it would not be a very widespread one among foreigner-Thai partnerships, otherwise I agree with his other categorisations:

0) The Thai partner has his own life, including career, family, etc. He meets a foreigner one way or another and though he has perhaps never dated foreigners before finds himself interested, eventually, in a relationship. While economics play a factor as they always do, both partners are "stakeholders" at least in a pro-rated way and there is no freeloading. The foreigner may often earn more money than the Thai but is also often less functional and savvy about Thai society, an area in which his partner excels. Ideally, both partners are better off for having had the relationship, even if it eventually ends. The common interest, initially, is physical; the foreigner is not necessarily much older than the Thai but if he is then the Thai partner will prefer older partners as a matter of course.

I'd have to say this is the ideal, though I haven't often seen it realised. I would settle for a relationship following the pattern of type 1), as well.

"S"

[peekint]

Fascinating bit of sociology in this particular topic. Seems there are a lot of broken hearts and shattered dreams out there!

I think the answer to Midas' question may be simpler than all the categories, analysis and Skinnerian psychology that's been driveled out so far.

Let me try this ...

You get the relationship you build. If you hang out at establishments that promote sex for money, you're not likely to find Doris Day. If you're fifty-somthing and establish a loving relationship with a twenty-something, the relationship will look different than if you're a forty-something and hook up with another forty-something.

The real question is, so what?

Just make your expectations realistic. Don't try to compare your lover, your relationship, your sex-life and your receding hairline with everyone else's. Just look carefully and see if it is working ... for YOU. See if it is working ... for HIM. If so, gee, you have a relationship. Ultimately, only you and your partner should be judging and defining your relationship, not trying to categorize it, compare and contrast it, and otherwise measure yourselves up against what other folks are saying or doing.

My Thai husband and I have been together 15 years now, and whatever formula or category the (mostly single or too-frequently-married?) commentators on this topic might put us in, it's a relationship that works for us, has given us happiness, success, pleasure, pain, distress, ecstasy, disappointment, anger, thrill, fulfillment, growth and all those other things that come with a real-life long-term relationship.

Basically, Midas had two questions.

1) how often do relationships like this work out?

Sorry, Midas, this is a meaningless question. They work out EVERY TIME, when they work out. You don't have a relationship like any body's, so how can you know? It's the only relationship that has every existed, in all of human history, of you and your lover. It is 100% unique. If I tell you my husband is 15 years younger than me, does that help? No, because you're not me and he's not him.

2) should you allow extramarital sex?

Actually, your question sounds more like "MUST I allow extramarital sex?". Again, what if I say "absolutely not", or "absolutely yes"? What does it mean? Can YOU be happy in a relationship with extramarital sex? can HE? It's YOUR relationship. You two define it, organize it, modify it, grow it, experiment with it.

Isn't that depressing? Nothing anyone has said to you in this topic has any value, because only YOU know the answers to your questions And only you CAN know the answers. None of the rest of us.

Sorry!

[Ijustwannateach]

Patterns are helpful because they do repeat. From observing a couple and knowing just a few things about them, I can often guess (correctly, on occasions when I am able to get other information) quite a lot about how things are between them. That's why it's helpful to look at patterns of relationships in others' lives and in one's own life (successful and otherwise) in order to guess or decide what does work for oneself and others- and what "working" means. It is also helpful when someone is in a negative pattern of relationships to look at how things work in more functional patterns. Finally, longevity is only a sign of success by certain standards, which may not apply to everyone else.

I frequently find people in relationships that would certainly not be "working" by my standards, but they continue to stay in them- so obviously they do work by theirs, otherwise they would leave them. Or would they? It seems strange to me to define a functional relationship as one in which both partners simply continue- is that really "working?" I think it's quite possible for a relationship not to be functional (or healthy, whatever that means) but for one or both of the partners involved not to have the strength, perspective, wisdom, or whatever other quality would be necessary to move on. In such cases, thinking a relationship is working doesn't necessarily make it so. Or does it?

"S"

[peekint]

Patterns are helpful because they do repeat. From observing a couple and knowing just a few things about them, I can often guess (correctly, on occasions when I am able to get other information) quite a lot about how things are between them. That's why it's helpful to look at patterns of relationships in others' lives and in one's own life (successful and otherwise) in order to guess or decide what does work for oneself and others- and what "working" means. It is also helpful when someone is in a negative pattern of relationships to look at how things work in more functional patterns. Finally, longevity is only a sign of success by certain standards, which may not apply to everyone else.

I frequently find people in relationships that would certainly not be "working" by my standards, but they continue to stay in them- so obviously they do work by theirs, otherwise they would leave them. Or would they? It seems strange to me to define a functional relationship as one in which both partners simply continue- is that really "working?" I think it's quite possible for a relationship not to be functional (or healthy, whatever that means) but for one or both of the partners involved not to have the strength, perspective, wisdom, or whatever other quality would be necessary to move on. In such cases, thinking a relationship is working doesn't necessarily make it so. Or does it?

"S"

it seems to me that IJWT leads back up the path we've been running down over the years. Who is to judge the validity and health of our relationships? If we allow others to do it, do we pick the American Psychiatric Association whose standard reference book, DSM-II: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders classified homoexual relationships as "perverted" until 1973? Doesn't matter young or old, rich or poor, "you were just a sicko, babe". Glad I got better in 1973!

Or shall we let religious people to tell us? http://www.bfamilyadvocates.com/homosexuality.htm (note the similarity in rhetoric in that article to IJWT's - creation of categories based on anecdotal accounts)

or who should it be? Who's the best one to tell you how to manage your relationships?

No, Midas. IJWT ties the same noose that other folks have been trying to hang around Gay people's necks for years. This noose is made of finer fibers so that it looks like silk instead of hemp. The distinctions are less blunt - now there are different CATEGORIES of your homosexual relationship, some of which have more value than others, or are better than others, or are more acceptable than others. You must strive to reach the most valuable category, or somehow your relationship is defective, even if you and your partner are fine with it (consenting). I don't buy it, and I don't think you should either.

How about that last rhetorical question. from IJWT?

In such cases, thinking a relationship is working doesn't necessarily make it so. Or does it?

Is there some objective evaluation IJWT has for judging it otherwise? As objective as being able to determine whether a bone is broken or not? No. It's just whether IJWT thinks your relationship is working or YOU think it is working. Choose for yourself and don't buy the baloney, even on sale. Follow your heart, but hang on to your hat.

[Ijustwannateach]

Either there is such a thing as an unhealthy relationship or there isn't. I would be skeptical of worldviews that implied there was no such thing. And if there is such a thing as an unhealthy relationship, I personally believe it can help to observe, compare, evaluate, ask advice, and discuss what such a thing means, even contingent on individual personalities. Even if the "health" of the relationship is not in doubt, I'm sure that if everyone really thought about how things were going in any particular relationship, they could think of areas which seemed to be going well and areas which seemed to be going not so well- in other words, room for improvement, either within the relationship or in a new relationship. Sometimes people may need the help of others to think about these things clearly- to see our blind spots, the elephant in the room, or other things that we may overlook because we are human. I'm not sure why these ideas would be threatening to anyone, and they have nothing to do with mental illness.

But this is getting a bit off-topic. To try to get back to the topic, I would note that while I don't see a lot of single guys out in groups who are mixed ages, quite frequently when I see a Thai gay couple one of them is at least a noticeable bit older than the other... the pattern doesn't seem only to hold with foreign residents- and I've heard that the same patterns mentioned by William above hold true with them, as well.

"S"

[cm-happy]

Perhaps IJWT is being too analytical and scientific in his approach to whether relationships are successful or not.

Relationships are based up emotions and feelings. Things that are difficult to quantify.

Anyway he ONLY ones qualified to judge if a relationship is successful or not are the participants and not some outsider.

Unless IJWT is suggesting putting pple in a Skinner box to live out thier lives.

[PeaceBlondie]

If I may just add an opinion about opinions and judgments. None of us needs to 'judge' another couple's relationship, in the sense that we're condemning or approving it as if we are the authority. Since we've been condemned in the past, we resist being condemned, even when they're just offering a personal opinion.

If evaluating other relationships helps you to have a better one, fine. If you invite public opinions about your own relationship, don't be surprised to receive opinions that you dislike. Just take what you need, and leave the rest.

If we didn't evaluate (for our own use) the relationships we see around us, and didn't make our own personal conclusions about which ones work and which ones don't work (to our way of thinking), we wouldn't know what might work if we change our own lives.

Judging other people is not in my job description. I think it's my personal duty to improve myself.

[peekint]

If I may just add an opinion about opinions and judgments. None of us needs to 'judge' another couple's relationship, in the sense that we're condemning or approving it as if we are the authority. Since we've been condemned in the past, we resist being condemned, even when they're just offering a personal opinion.

If evaluating other relationships helps you to have a better one, fine. If you invite public opinions about your own relationship, don't be surprised to receive opinions that you dislike. Just take what you need, and leave the rest.

If we didn't evaluate (for our own use) the relationships we see around us, and didn't make our own personal conclusions about which ones work and which ones don't work (to our way of thinking), we wouldn't know what might work if we change our own lives.

Judging other people is not in my job description. I think it's my personal duty to improve myself.

Amen PB!

Look around, compare/contrast, listen. In the end, throw away what doesn't seem to fit. Be responsible for your own happiness.

CM-happy, I'd say IJWT is being overly "pseudo-scientific". He wants us to believe that who he meets and what he sees, and how he remembers who he met and saw, is somehow representative of reality. Of course, it is. His reality. Fortunately, we live in a Buddhist country and Buddha taught quite a bit about reality, didn't he?

As an example, I would point IJWT's comment about Thai gay couples being mostly cross-generational. I think if he knew more gay Thais (who don't hang out at bars or with Farang), he would realize how inaccurate that statement really is. It's just that, as he says "when I see a Thai gay couple one of them is at least a noticeable bit older than the other...", because that's what HE sees. Not what is there. He's missed most of it either because of where he looks or how he determines who is a gay couple. There is a very very large "gay Thai" world out there of which most farang haven't a clue.

In the end, what IJWT observes is reality as seen through his own filter of experience, disappointments, rejections, successes, conquests, prejudices, preferences and social millieu.

Knowing what is right for everyone else, even when cloaked in pseudo-scientific impartiality, must just be lumped with religious zealotry.

[Ijustwannateach]

Could I formally request that we get the thread back on topic, and off references to me, please. Thank you.

[Ijustwannateach]

On the one topical bit Peekint posts, regarding Thai couples- I didn't say cross-generational, I said a noticeable bit older- usually 4-5 years is common. The MUCH older- younger couples are out there but less common, or at least they don't go out as often to where young people hang out. Of course, one thing that may slant my perspective is that in groups of Thais (once again, I was not referring to places where foreigners hang out) it is sometimes hard to tell if they are single or groups of couples that are out together- I've been of the opinion that those groups are more of single guys from the dynamic I've observed, but I could be mistaken.

It's hard to have a two-way conversation with people putting so many words in my mouth, so I'm going to leave both sides of the conversation alone now.

[peteinCM]

My current relationship is an OPEN relationship, and frankly the BF and I wouldn't have it any other way. We also greatly enjoy inviting other men into our bed, and some of the best sex of my life has been with the BF and another guy (or guys).

My BF is Thai, and while he loves farang guys, he also loves Thai guys. Like me, he is a gay man who enjoys the wide spectrum of the male human race.

For me, as a gay man who faces a world of judgement about my relationship choices, I resent when other gay men seek to judge the quality or health of my relationship based solely upon the choices they make in theirs.

As to the OP, I think you should discuss with the BF your relationship status and your desires to practise monogamy or not. However, as already pointed out, many Thais often are of the "don't ask-don't tell" mentality when it comes to sex outside the relationship. IMO, many Thais see sex as sanook, and don't approach casual sex with the same views as do many Westerners. If your BF does stray outside your relationship with or without your approval, don't expect to hear about it, and IMO, you shouldn't think too much about it. In my case, my BF sleeps with me every night when I am in Thailand and that works for the two of us.

Every relationship is different as the two people involved are different. Good luck as you figure out yours.

[midas]

'][/b]

My current relationship is an OPEN relationship, and frankly the BF and I wouldn't have it any other way. We also greatly enjoy inviting other men into our bed, and some of the best sex of my life has been with the BF and another guy (or guys).

My BF is Thai, and while he loves farang guys, he also loves Thai guys. Like me, he is a gay man who enjoys the wide spectrum of the male human race.

For me, as a gay man who faces a world of judgement about my relationship choices, I resent when other gay men seek to judge the quality or health of my relationship based solely upon the choices they make in theirs.

As to the OP, I think you should discuss with the BF your relationship status and your desires to practise monogamy or not. However, as already pointed out, many Thais often are of the "don't ask-don't tell" mentality when it comes to sex outside the relationship. IMO, many Thais see sex as sanook, and don't approach casual sex with the same views as do many Westerners. If your BF does stray outside your relationship with or without your approval, don't expect to hear about it, and IMO, you shouldn't think too much about it. In my case, my BF sleeps with me every night when I am in Thailand and that works for the two of us.

Every relationship is different as the two people involved are different. Good luck as you figure out yours.

peteinCM your comments are interesting but your words that I have highlighted suggest

you don't live here on a permanent basis and that in itself would naturally lead to " different rules " ?

I was referring more to the situation where two people are living together permanently

on ongoing basis without long periods of separation