Teakwood Plantation

[lannarebirth]

Would submerging the logs in a pond for 10 days smother any bugs that were already in them? I don't really know.....just a thought. Just keeping them wet seems like it would enhance the bugginess....but again I don't know.....I've tried different things to keep the bugs out of unmilled teak wood and so far the best thing has been to remove the bark and examine for bugs, remove bugs if any, and then store in an enclosed room with a dry concrete floor. Again I don't know but it seems like the white sapwood on the outside of the log is not very bug resistant and this is how infestations get started.

By the way, how much sapwood do the logs have?

Chownah

I think puttin in ponds is an accepted method. I have a pond, but these logs are just too big to move. I'm not sure of the exact amount of sap wood, but it looks like the last years growth is pretty soft. It will have to be planed off I'm sure. I wish I knew now exactly what lengths I needed, as it would be much easier to store and treat properly.

[wooty]

Wow! I am quite impressed by the wealth of information everyone is sharing here on simple old teak!

Let me first address the Panama connection. There is a big Swiss originated company called Precious Woods that started teak and other wood plantations in Panama, Costa Rica, and they also expanded to Brazil and Ghana in Africa and almost went belly up as teak wood plantation and Brasilian or African rain forest are two separate cups of tea, so to speak. But teak wood originated in Sout East Asia, as a matter of fact the Phrae province in Thailand is the very heart of it. So Thailand's hihglands are the perfect setting.

Then, on another subject: There is a newsletter out every month on global timber production and also prices that is very helpful can be of guidance to any producer or buyer. You can subscribe to it at [email protected] , and I quote from their web page:

"The ITTO Tropical Timber Market (TTM) Report, an output of the ITTO Market Information Service (MIS), is published in English every two weeks with the aim of improving transparency in the international tropical timber market. Its contents do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of ITTO. News may be reprinted without charge provided that the ITTO TTM Report is credited. A copy of the publication should be sent to the editor."

Third subject: cutting license. You should be able to get one easily, all you have to do show your land papers, and you got to put up a sign on your plot of land where you wanna cut, that's all. Don't let some officials or whoever bully you into bribing them, it you do not steal from the government land or the rain forest, but harvest a sustainable crop, it is no problem at all. I had it figured out and checked by my Thai lawyer - shrewd fellow and VERY good! money well spent and worth every Satang - and it works. Well, a smile and a bottle of whisky always makes for good friends, hahaha!

I would appreciate it if you kept sharing your expernences and opinions. Looking forard to hearing from you again! Farang rak Thai!

Wooty

[MrSquigle]

In Oz sawmilss put sprinklers on their logs awaiting in the yards for several weeks. This stops them drying out and cracking, not sure about bugs though. Thought teak was resistant to most.

[sibeymai]

The USD1,500 per cubic metre price I quoted earlier is for "fine furniture" grade timber. This usually means a DBH of at least 1 metre, if not 1.5m. Threes with this DBH are 35-50 metres tall. These are by necessity old trees, often from native forest as few farmers are willing to wait the 40+ years it takes to grow this size. 15 year old trees are worth much less and the figure of USD150 mentioned earlier is about right. The price increases with timber quality (the best run plantations mimic nature with the dry spell every year to produce the best timber at the expense of extra growth achieved by constant watering which decreases the timber quality) and also with DBHs above 1 metre as these trees are well suited to large (and therefore expensive) pieces of furniture. How do you make a dining table out of a tree with 50cm DBH ? Also, the large DBH trees have the potential to produce huge, and I mean enormous, quantities of veneer so they are just far more useful all round, hence their significant extra value.

If you want to do short rotations you're better off doing something other than teak.

[Loom]

Wow! That's a compound annual increase of almost 12% per annum in the value per cubic meter for 15 year old trees allowed to age another 25 years.

[sibeymai]

yes, it's not small bickies. reliable data on timberland investments (the value of timber and the land it is grown on) goes back over a hunded years and shows an average yearly return of 3% above inflation. this includes a large proportion of "industrial" forestry (eg. low value woodchip and pulp) as well as natural forest sources which were also considered low cost, usually being granted by government concession. With the cost of timber constantly increasing in real terms you can expect the low value timber products to be increasingly replaced by non-timber alternatives. That leaves a greater percentage of forestry in the high value timber product category which is not so easily replaced by alternative materials. Consequently, you can expect the average return to significantly increase above the 3% per annum in line with the increased value of the timber commodity.

A 12% compound rate is a medium rate of return. It's possible to achieve compound rates of over 20% on some forest products, especially when the whole timberland investment is considered.

[canuckamuck]

I told my father in law I would find out some teak information. His main question is where to get saplings. The other questions have mostly been handled in this thread.

[chownah]

If there are mature teak trees growing near you (in my area I look along the main road which has many) they drop seeds which sprout and saplings grow. I have heard that the forestry dept. has some too from time to time....you might ask at the agriculture university close to you (KK university or Maejo University are two...there are others).

[Goinghomesoon]

Seykota this is our plan too. We have 20 year old rosewood and redwood, some already cut, some ready to be cut. We are using this to build our weekend getaway bungalow. Our plan is to plant more teak / rosewood / redwood saplings now and in 20 years when we retire will have enough to extend our home. The registration process sounds cumbersome, especially as we are insisting every bit of paper be in order so noone can argue with us in later years. Luckily my partner has a relative in the district office that is working out the system for us.

Quote Seykota

We have some teak trees on our farm and would like to plant more, as well as eucalyptus, however my wife has been told that permission must be gained from the government before you cut any teak. If it is for your own use, they will ok a limited amount of the timber but if the purpose is commercial they veto it. Our plan therefore is to grow only enough teak for our "retirement home" and the remainder of the farm will be eucalyptus (commercial purpose).

Unquote

[sbk]

I'd like to do something like this too, but teak just doesn't grow where I live. What kind of requirements does Rosewood have or am I still too far south?

I'd really like to get a nice hardwood tree that we could harvest in 20 years and make good money selling --DH thinks I am slightly insane

[canuckamuck]

My friend is going up to see a teak plantation he has inherited. They told him he needs to go up and confirm that he wants them to thin out the growth which has never been done. the trees are plus 20 years. Does any one here know what the recommended distance there should be between mature trees?

[A_Traveller]

Sorry to be pain here, but Annex 1 {Business not to operated by Aliens} of The Foreign Business Act 1999 stipulates Forestry and wood processing from natural forests, Annex 2 {Businesses affecting natural resources} stipulates Wood processing to make furniture and utensils, whilst Annex 3 {Businesses not yet ready for foreign competition} stipulates Forestry from reforestration.

I think it would be prudent to identify if a plantation would be viable for a foreigner, under the law, before proceeding too far.

Regards

Edited February 5, 2008 by A_Traveller

[canuckamuck]

Sorry to be pain here, but Annex 1 {Business not to operated by Aliens} of The Foreign Business Act 1999 stipulates Forestry and wood processing from natural forests, Annex 2 {Businesses affecting natural resources} stipulates Wood processing to make furniture and utensils, whilst Annex 3 {Businesses not yet ready for foreign competition} stipulates Forestry from reforestration.

I think it would be prudent to identify if a plantation would be viable for a foreigner, under the law, before proceeding too far.

Regards

No worries, the land is owned by Thais, the proceeds will go to a Thai charitable foundation. I should have said land he had been gifted instead of inherited.

[A_Traveller]

^ Should have annotated my post with the point that it was aimed at those thinking of this as a business, sorry for any confusion caused.

Regards

[akumabito]

I've read the thread, but I am left with a few questions;

First off, regarding the legality of such a plantation; How much 'foreign involvement' is acceptable? For instance, if the land would be owned by my Thai wife, all the paperwork would be in her name, etc.. then surely there isn't any foreign involvement from a legal perspective, is there? On the same note; are smal-scale plantations (and other agricultural projects) even registered as businesses? I am not entirely sure on this, but I believe most of the farm land has a land registration title, but that's about it..

Next up; I've seen some wildly varying prices for a cubic meter of logs, from $150 to $1500+ per cubic meter.. I understand this has to do with wood quality and tree diameter.. dos anyone have a rough idea how this scales?

FInaly.. maybe the most obvious question, but I haven' really found an answer here; Where to sell the wood? It's not lke you can just take a truckload to the local market and wait around... Where would you be paid a fair price (international price preferably)? I guess this is especially important for large, old trees... I just can't picture any local people paying tens of thousands of baht per log..

[scotbeve]

Any of you know if these are good prices?

I can buy 100cm circumference (measured 1.5 meters from ground) teak logs for 3,000 baht. 85cm circumference for 1,500 baht. The 100 cm ones are about 7 meters and the 85cm about 6 meters. What do you think?

Those are good prices. We grow golden teak and have all the proper licenses, stamps, and receipt books. Our trees are now 14, 13, and 12 years old according to respective plots we planted. We sell our 50 cm for approx. 1000 Baht each.

Scott

[scotbeve]

My wifes father has 14 rai planted in Teak. He is in lower Loei Province near Phu Kra Dung. His trees were planted about 13 years ago under some type of government program where the trees were given to him. They gave him a price guarantee of 500 baht a tree after 10 years if he planted them. Of course now the goevenrnment is nowhere to be found with the purchase guarantee. Evidently you have to regeister your teak trees in Thailand with the govenrmnet if you intend to sell them, which he has. They are supposed to give you some kind of stamp or imprint that must be put on the log in order to sell them. He has never thinned them as you are supposed to do in order to get maximum growth. He has 3200 trees and we are trying to talk him into cutting and selling 1000 to 1500 of the trees. There are many plots his size in the area that did the same thing back then. The problem is that they don't seem to know who to sell them to or what the price should be. There have been timber middlemen that come around from time to time offering to buy trees from anybody willing to sell but they seem to be offering peanuts for the price. I am not sure on the exact price but it but think it was about 150 baht a tree for a good size log which seems like he was trying to steal them. Does anybody have any experience with this size operation and how to go about finding someone to buy them and getting a good price? Also there is apparantly different grades of trees and gold being the top but his are the 2nd grade of silver. The wife and I have gone to several differnt places that process the timber but they don't seem to want to divulge much info and only want to know where the trees are. I know teak is supposed to be valuable but it seems like the poor farmers with a small plots are having difficulty realizing their true value.

Keg

Keg,

Be careful with this. There have been some scams and cut only 25% of the trees after 14 years of age in a hodge-podge fashion, not by rows. The next cut would be 5 years or more waiting period. We've done this (I've lived here a while now...). I'm assuming these trees are golden teak not the "red" or "black" teak. You'll have to go through the Forestry Ministry at the province (Ba Mai) and get the proper paperwork signed (costs 100 - 200 baht, can't remember).

[Maizefarmer]

Like all things in Thailand - the description of the product can be misleading, and teak in Thailand is one of those products that you need to understand before committing your hard

earned money to.

You get teak and you get teak. Like a lot of other timbers the quality varies tremendously depending on age, growth, what part of the tree/trunk you are buying e.g. plank thicknesses, placement and number of knots, density of rings, what variety (black, red or golden) - and a whole bunch of other factors.

Most of the fresh/unused teak sold in Thailand is relatively young and from trees little more than 15 - 20 years old. The rings are widely spaced (and this teak is considered to be lower grade teak) indicating in many cases irrigation which speeds up growth considerably at the expense of timber density.

This teak is almost certainly from registered plantations, which the owner is keen to see a return on as soon as they can. few folk are inclined or have the patience to let the tree grow for any longer than they need to - they'll cut it down as soon as its big enough to be traded.

Top grade teak - meaning teak from mature trees - with high ring density (indicating dense heavy timber from old trees - anything over 40 years), will have few knots (indicating its a tree that has being tended while growing - side shoots are trimmed off as soon as they start to grow, restricting growth to the central trunk), and naturally cured (which can take a good 5 - 10years to accomplish) is not cheap stuff, and not easy to source in Thailand.

Most of top grade natural stuff is traded illegaly because it largely comes from wild trees in remote locations that have being left to grow naturaly for 60 - 100years, before being illegaly cut down. Traders pay top price for this timber because they know its worth on the Western markets. You seldom see any of this on the Thai market, and what there is of it is seldom advertised or sold openly.

When I built my place I went looking for old school buildings and other structures in rural areas that were due to be demolished and replaced. Many of these were 50 plus years old and constructed before steel was widely avalible - hence they had lovely timber trusses in the roof - my main roof truss structure is constructed with timber from an old health clinic in the middle of nowhere. The timber came from a wild tree that was a good 40-50years old (if not older) when it was chopped down, and served the clinic for about 50years before I got it.

100 year old timber - solid stuff, not a bug or beetle anywhere on/in it.

The teak timber I see nowadays on the market in Thailand is without exception comparativley soft and young - take a piece of 2" x 4" PAR building teak from any dealer that has come from a plantation, and leave it in your garage. Go back and look at it after a couple years: you will find it warped and twisted. Its very different stuff.

Your best bet, unless you understand teak properly, is to go looking for old buildings in rural areas that are about to be demolished to make way for newer larger buildings. Find out how long the building has being standing (the older the better).

Anything over 40/50 years old is going to have hardwood trusses in the roof and hardwood planks for the floor. Thats what you need to buy. Chances are it will be teak, but if not teak, it will still be one of the tropical hardwoods, and whatever type it is, if its 50 - 100 years plus old, it ain;t going to be moving when you start recutting for whatever dimensions you need to use it for. it'll be good quality solid, bug free stuff and will last the rest of your life.

This is the stuff you want, wheather its teak or something else - far better than the plantation teak you find openly for sale and which is harvetsed around 10 - 20 years.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[egg6447]

These are 14 (100cm) and 12 (85 cm) years old from a plantation. My use is for columns to support various roof structures. I'll use the narrower ends for smaller shade structures on farm land.

I've never heard of a 14 year old teak tree with 100cm diameter at breast height (DBH). Usually a 14 year old tree will be 30-40cm only, even with optimum growing conditions. Good forestry practices NEVER result in accelerating the growth of trees more than 100%. Usually 25-30% max, and sometimes it's not even that much but more a case of preventing substandard growth rates by good forest practices.

Sorry, but I very much doubt the figures you're quoting.

try doubting what your understanding. what your understanding isnt what your reading. go and stand in the corner.

[damole]

Hey guys

I am going to set up a small teak wook plantation South of Chiangmai. Looks like a lucrative business once the wood can be harvested. Nevertheless, it is a long way to go. So is anyone out there who could share some experience and gimme advice? I would appreciate it!

Lookin' forward to hearing from you!

Wooty

I sell T

[Maizefarmer]

Hey guys

I am going to set up a small teak wook plantation South of Chiangmai. Looks like a lucrative business once the wood can be harvested. Nevertheless, it is a long way to go. So is anyone out there who could share some experience and gimme advice? I would appreciate it!

Lookin' forward to hearing from you!

Wooty

I sell T

Sizes, Age of Timber, quantities, prices???

[scotbeve]

Like all things in Thailand - the description of the product can be misleading, and teak in Thailand is one of those products that you need to understand before committing your hard

earned money to.

You get teak and you get teak. Like a lot of other timbers the quality varies tremendously depending on age, growth, what part of the tree/trunk you are buying e.g. plank thicknesses, placement and number of knots, density of rings, what variety (black, red or golden) - and a whole bunch of other factors.

Most of the fresh/unused teak sold in Thailand is relatively young and from trees little more than 15 - 20 years old. The rings are widely spaced (and this teak is considered to be lower grade teak) indicating in many cases irrigation which speeds up growth considerably at the expense of timber density.

This teak is almost certainly from registered plantations, which the owner is keen to see a return on as soon as they can. few folk are inclined or have the patience to let the tree grow for any longer than they need to - they'll cut it down as soon as its big enough to be traded.

Top grade teak - meaning teak from mature trees - with high ring density (indicating dense heavy timber from old trees - anything over 40 years), will have few knots (indicating its a tree that has being tended while growing - side shoots are trimmed off as soon as they start to grow, restricting growth to the central trunk), and naturally cured (which can take a good 5 - 10years to accomplish) is not cheap stuff, and not easy to source in Thailand.

Most of top grade natural stuff is traded illegaly because it largely comes from wild trees in remote locations that have being left to grow naturaly for 60 - 100years, before being illegaly cut down. Traders pay top price for this timber because they know its worth on the Western markets. You seldom see any of this on the Thai market, and what there is of it is seldom advertised or sold openly.

When I built my place I went looking for old school buildings and other structures in rural areas that were due to be demolished and replaced. Many of these were 50 plus years old and constructed before steel was widely avalible - hence they had lovely timber trusses in the roof - my main roof truss structure is constructed with timber from an old health clinic in the middle of nowhere. The timber came from a wild tree that was a good 40-50years old (if not older) when it was chopped down, and served the clinic for about 50years before I got it.

100 year old timber - solid stuff, not a bug or beetle anywhere on/in it.

The teak timber I see nowadays on the market in Thailand is without exception comparativley soft and young - take a piece of 2" x 4" PAR building teak from any dealer that has come from a plantation, and leave it in your garage. Go back and look at it after a couple years: you will find it warped and twisted. Its very different stuff.

Your best bet, unless you understand teak properly, is to go looking for old buildings in rural areas that are about to be demolished to make way for newer larger buildings. Find out how long the building has being standing (the older the better).

Anything over 40/50 years old is going to have hardwood trusses in the roof and hardwood planks for the floor. Thats what you need to buy. Chances are it will be teak, but if not teak, it will still be one of the tropical hardwoods, and whatever type it is, if its 50 - 100 years plus old, it ain;t going to be moving when you start recutting for whatever dimensions you need to use it for. it'll be good quality solid, bug free stuff and will last the rest of your life.

This is the stuff you want, wheather its teak or something else - far better than the plantation teak you find openly for sale and which is harvetsed around 10 - 20 years.

Good post maizefarmer!

We've grown golden teak for 15, 14, & 13 years in their respective plots of land in northern Chiang Mai. When planting, we put a scoop of pre-soaked silica gel pellets in each hole. We've never watered the trees and put organic fertilizer twice only (when young). Had some of the village folks around the area and come in and plant rotation crops or cash crops rent-free for the first 4 years. They in turn, would take any "sucker" branches off the trees, carefully take the weeds away from the base of each sapling, and keep the place fairly neat and tidy. And we never let any animals graze in the plantations. With some of the young teak trees we cut, I soaked them in a salt-water vat for 1 month at a time per batch, de-barked and sundried. This process was repeated 4 times prior to slabbing and milling. So far, the results are okay eg: no warpping. But for a thorough test, I still need another year.

[Pierrot]

I'm surprised that nobody mentionned that there is a better alternative than selling the wood but maybe we're not talking about the same thing, I'm not a wood expert.

A cousin up north planted teak trees around 15 years ago. Two years ago, when the trees started to reach the required maturity, he sold his restaurant to start making furniture with his own trees, small operation, a big warehouse and a couple of employees. We bought an garden table and a couple of chairs from him, nothing outstanding, but honest quality and very fair price. He sell to small resorts and home owners and as I far as I know he's doing ok, much better than just selling the trees. Maybe an example to follow.

[scotbeve]

My friend is going up to see a teak plantation he has inherited. They told him he needs to go up and confirm that he wants them to thin out the growth which has never been done. the trees are plus 20 years. Does any one here know what the recommended distance there should be between mature trees?

We planted ours only 4 x 4 meters, but ideally when they come of age they should be spread 6 x 6m to 7x7m.