The Lakes - Whats A Good Price?

[chayatom]

I am looking at buying a unit in the The Lakes Condominium as from what i have seen it offers the best combination of location,layout,facilities,management,etc.

I have seen two 109m2 +/_ units and the asking price is c15m or roughly 135,000 m2 - they ae nice lake view apartments but the price seems over the top to me - i thought the going rate should be closer to 115k per m2.

Has anyone actually bought a unit here recently and if so would you mind telling how much you paid for it?

Thanks

[quiksilva]

FYI They launched at Baht 65,000 per square meter in 2002, by 2004 they were selling at Baht 85,000 - 90,000 per square meter.

Interesting to see that you are happy with a price of Baht 115 k psm, and here's everyone telling us that the condo market is crashing....

Edited November 12, 2007 by quiksilva

[chayatom]

FYI They launched at Baht 65,000 per square meter in 2002, by 2004 they were selling at Baht 85,000 - 90,000 per square meter.

Interesting to see that you are happy with a price of Baht 115 k psm, and here's everyone telling us that the condo market is crashing....

.....happier to pay 90k but nothing available at that price! As far as i can see there are only 3 units available in the entire building out of i think 160 units

i have looked at roughly 15 units in different buildings around the Asoke junction including Las Colinas, Asoke Towers,Concord ,Urbana,Wattana Siutes,The Peak - you can pay 60k -90k per m2 mostly for an old unit in a run down building with poor management and poor facilities and some pretty poor layouts. To me these seem poorer value for money than the lakes where everything is great apart from the price. I would be pretty confident of renting or reselling a unit in the Lakes but the other buildings i would not touch. Citismart on Soi 18 was the only other building i would consider.

[trajan]

I personally think B115K psm for a lake view in that building would be OK, but B135K psm is probably a bit aggressive (but in the end its a matter of supply and demand)...

[Irene]

To help you to read the condo situation comprehensively, just to let you know that I own two units at the Lake. One I bought originally at Baht 60,000/sqm and another one facing the lake bought second hand at Baht80,000 two years ago. Recently, I bought one unit at Siri condo near Emporium, second hand, at Baht 140,000 /sqm. Two persons made a handsome profit from me. I also own another one called Madison as an original purchaser committed two years ago and now due for transfer and occupation at a price of Baht 80,000 sqm. There were two estate agents offered to buy at Baht 100,000 per sqm. All the units I bought at the hefty prices are near to skytrain stations. As a person used to live in New York and London, I do know the value of being near to a train station very well, hence I have taken chances with my reading of the future.

Definitely, you can never find another one like the Lake, ideal in almost all respects except for the current price. I am not saying you should or should not buy. But I just like to share with you of my perception. I don't know whether we are in a bubble or not but I know that people are queuing up to rent the apartment near to Emporium giving me yearly return of 4%.

[chiang mai]

To help you to read the condo situation comprehensively, just to let you know that I own two units at the Lake. One I bought originally at Baht 60,000/sqm and another one facing the lake bought second hand at Baht80,000 two years ago. Recently, I bought one unit at Siri condo near Emporium, second hand, at Baht 140,000 /sqm. Two persons made a handsome profit from me. I also own another one called Madison as an original purchaser committed two years ago and now due for transfer and occupation at a price of Baht 80,000 sqm. There were two estate agents offered to buy at Baht 100,000 per sqm. All the units I bought at the hefty prices are near to skytrain stations. As a person used to live in New York and London, I do know the value of being near to a train station very well, hence I have taken chances with my reading of the future.

Definitely, you can never find another one like the Lake, ideal in almost all respects except for the current price. I am not saying you should or should not buy. But I just like to share with you of my perception. I don't know whether we are in a bubble or not but I know that people are queuing up to rent the apartment near to Emporium giving me yearly return of 4%.

I suppose that if you are happy with a 4% return (income) on your investment that's great but you can do much better.

[Khun Jean]

4%??

Please tell me that is a typo!

That actually means you loose money every year and are only able to make money from it when it can be sold in the future for a higher price.

Does not sound like a deal i would be interested in, no matter how 'nice' something looks.

8% should be the minimum for real estate.

[backflip]

"giving me yearly return of 4%."

Wow, how can I get on THAT gravy train?

[chayatom]

....its easy to look at the market as a whole and say there is over supply and don't put your money into a condo in Bangkok. The situation to me appears that the majority of buildings are poorly designed, poorly managed, over priced and will be very difficult to sell on. The flip side to this is that there are a small number of well located/designed/managed buildings where prices have risen substantially over the past 2 years and demand for these buildings remains strong. Even the prices seem high in comparison to the mainstream they are still easily affordable to the price insesnsitive buyers at the top end of the market where demand still outstrips supply.

If i had bought into the lakes 2 years ago i would be very happy today with my 4 % pa rental return and capital appreciation of 50% plus.

Can anyone tell me where the next Lakes is???

[Irene]

chayatom,

You are right on target. Another Lakes? Wait for another recession like in 1997, then you can look out for gems. The problem is when there is a gem, you just simply do not realise it or affected by all those talks of how dim you are to buy that sort of property at that high price. Up to today, I still regret for not acting bold enough to buy more than two units especially when all the ideals were there at the Lakes.

[Lazy Sod]

There's a unit at The Lakes for sale today in the Bangkok Post classifieds for only 70,900 Bt/m2 (advertised by M. Ocean Real Estate).

[Irene]

There's a unit at The Lakes for sale today in the Bangkok Post classifieds for only 70,900 Bt/m2 (advertised by M. Ocean Real Estate).

Lazy Sod,

Thank you. It was mighty kind of you to advise.

[chayatom]

I think this unit is on the 11/12th floor and has a restricted City view - i am going to see it today. Even so it sounds good value compared to the 130k psm for a lake view unit. It also compares well to the other buildings in this area where the price seems to be around 85k psm and they are definitely inferior quality to the Lakes.

How much of a premium is a lake view worth???....30/40% max maybe but not more????

[Lazy Sod]

Keep us posted. I'm particularly interested to know why it's relatively cheap, perhaps not available with foreign quota? Or perhaps the condo resale market is grinding to halt and the seller wants a quick sale.

[trajan]

wow, that sound like a deal...., but its a bit odd to live at "The Lakes" and not be able to see the lake...

[chayatom]

wow Irene you are quick off the blocks! I went to see the apartment yesterday but was told it had already been sold(by chance i aksed if the buyer was Irene and they said yes!)

The price was 11m not 10m(a mistake!) and it was a lower floor (12 i think)with a poor view over the adjoining office towers M&E. At 10m i think it is still a good buy for a rental investment but i would not have paid 11m. Still its pretty good value for a decent 2 bed apartment in the Lakes even if the view is not up to much.

[torrenova]

Remember the old adage, buy the best you can afford, even if the cheapest unit in a great building or development rather than the penthouse in a less desirable unit for the same money. people will rent the former far more thasn the latter and capital appreciation will follow more readily as well.

[trajan]

wow Irene you are quick off the blocks! I went to see the apartment yesterday but was told it had already been sold(by chance i aksed if the buyer was Irene and they said yes!)

The price was 11m not 10m(a mistake!) and it was a lower floor (12 i think)with a poor view over the adjoining office towers M&E. At 10m i think it is still a good buy for a rental investment but i would not have paid 11m. Still its pretty good value for a decent 2 bed apartment in the Lakes even if the view is not up to much.

oh dont worry, still units on the market....I saw an ad today in the Bangkok Post....35th flr, 246 sm....Baht 26.5 mil (about B107K psm)... if it has a great view, it may be worth it

[Irene]

The price was 10m and at a lower floor. The view is terrible, blocked by another residential condo. It is at the back, (so-called city view and not the lake view) but from this unit you don't even see the skytrain. Furthermore, the flooring needs to be completely redone. The previous owner was well to do and not desperate in selling. Then why bother to buy? The answers are plenty, near to five high-rise business buildings, opposite a large-sized park with comfortable bridge to cross, situated on the eight-lane major road, the building is next to Foodland (I saw one American lady having a Foodland trolley delivered by a foodland staff while she walked leisurely carrying her new born baby to the lifts), a comfortable walking distance to skytrain and underground station-Asoke, one does not even need to own a car in Bangkok just like those expats in Hong Kong, guards calling taxis for residents, managed by a reliable agency with happy staff, a large number of expat owners who are active and care very much of their investment value and efficient management. We don't know whether we will ever have these sorts of advantages again in another location. We believe in diversification and do not like to focus on one building but the advantages here were too tempting for us to ignore.

[Lazy Sod]

The price was 10m and at a lower floor. The view is terrible, blocked by another residential condo. It is at the back, (so-called city view and not the lake view) but from this unit you don't even see the skytrain. Furthermore, the flooring needs to be completely redone. The previous owner was well to do and not desperate in selling. Then why bother to buy? The answers are plenty, near to five high-rise business buildings, opposite a large-sized park with comfortable bridge to cross, situated on the eight-lane major road, the building is next to Foodland (I saw one American lady having a Foodland trolley delivered by a foodland staff while she walked leisurely carrying her new born baby to the lifts), a comfortable walking distance to skytrain and underground station-Asoke, one does not even need to own a car in Bangkok just like those expats in Hong Kong, guards calling taxis for residents, managed by a reliable agency with happy staff, a large number of expat owners who are active and care very much of their investment value and efficient management. We don't know whether we will ever have these sorts of advantages again in another location. We believe in diversification and do not like to focus on one building but the advantages here were too tempting for us to ignore.

Interesting. Wish I'd bought at launch when I had the chance. Best of luck with it Irene.

[zorro1]

FYI They launched at Baht 65,000 per square meter in 2002, by 2004 they were selling at Baht 85,000 - 90,000 per square meter.

Interesting to see that you are happy with a price of Baht 115 k psm, and here's everyone telling us that the condo market is crashing....

You summed it up beautifully, condo market is going bananas but no don't buy here.. by anywhere else Singapore , Africa, china anywhere but here lol

I love reading these threads as they are loaded with cynical low end wage earners who are renting 5k condo in Bkk and are apparently experts in the Asian property market

[Hampstead]

The Lakes

You mean the small man made water landmark nestled between a convention centre and a tobacco factory, umm great view!!!

and the singapore property market has doubled in prices over the last year, and not just in a few select projects as is the case here in bkk, but in most areas of singapore, even the second hand condo market

singapore is by far the most attractive investment for expats to invest in property if you compare bangkok to singapore, maybe the ones who choose to buy in bangkok are the poorer relations to those who buy in singapore

i will always choose singapore over bkk for property investments

The ONE aspect of the bkk property market which is attractive are the incredibly low rental prices of the units if compared to the actual value of the unit,

Typically i rent in the region of 40-80 k a month here in bkk, my current rent is 51k, which is around 3-4% of their values, compare this to other capital cities of asia and the ist world where you will be paying 10% of the units value for one year's rent

Edited December 2, 2007 by Hampstead

[trajan]

Congrats Irene, The Lakes seems like a very good project! I think it was originally it was meant to be an office building so the ceilings are higher than avg residentials right?

[pkrv]

The Lakes

You mean the small man made water landmark nestled between a convention centre and a tobacco factory, umm great view!!!

and the singapore property market has doubled in prices over the last year, and not just in a few select projects as is the case here in bkk, but in most areas of singapore, even the second hand condo market

singapore is by far the most attractive investment for expats to invest in property if you compare bangkok to singapore, maybe the ones who choose to buy in bangkok are the poorer relations to those who buy in singapore

i will always choose singapore over bkk for property investments

The ONE aspect of the bkk property market which is attractive are the incredibly low rental prices of the units if compared to the actual value of the unit,

Typically i rent in the region of 40-80 k a month here in bkk, my current rent is 51k, which is around 3-4% of their values, compare this to other capital cities of asia and the ist world where you will be paying 10% of the units value for one year's rent

IMO there is a big difference between buying as a home and as an investment. Clearly Irene is using these properties as an investment vehicle and is correctly matching capital and rental as part (and I emphasise a part) of the process. I too looked at the Lakes some 2 1/2 years ago. It was absolutely fine but in the end I chose off the plan at The Park (allowed time for finances to build, it is a second home, great views over permanent parks etc) even though it was a more expensive. Irene's long term objectives and mine are not the same but the conditions we are seeing (from our differing perspectives) are in harmony.

On Singapore - I am afraid I am uninterested in leasehold - 2 1/2 years ago could you have bought a 140 sqm freehold property in the heart of the most prestigious area of Singapore overlooking acres of parkland for 100k THB per sqm? BTW I am also seeing indications of 100%+ growth here in Bangkok but as yet no ceiling. Bangkok is just coming to the international community's attention. IMO not just the adventurous are playing now.

What facilities does Singapore have that Bangkok does not?

Edited December 3, 2007 by pkrv

[chayatom]

well done Irene at 10m its a good buy.

...now i am still waiting for somebody to answer my question as to where is the next Lakes?....with so much development underway in Bangkok there must be some good buys out there - anyone want to offer some suggestions ???

[chayatom]

The Lakes

You mean the small man made water landmark nestled between a convention centre and a tobacco factory, umm great view!!!

and the singapore property market has doubled in prices over the last year, and not just in a few select projects as is the case here in bkk, but in most areas of singapore, even the second hand condo market

singapore is by far the most attractive investment for expats to invest in property if you compare bangkok to singapore, maybe the ones who choose to buy in bangkok are the poorer relations to those who buy in singapore

i will always choose singapore over bkk for property investments

The ONE aspect of the bkk property market which is attractive are the incredibly low rental prices of the units if compared to the actual value of the unit,

Typically i rent in the region of 40-80 k a month here in bkk, my current rent is 51k, which is around 3-4% of their values, compare this to other capital cities of asia and the ist world where you will be paying 10% of the units value for one year's rent

.......i get a better rental return on the condominium i own in Bangkok than the two i have in London....interested to learn where you can get 10% rental return???

[pkrv]

well done Irene at 10m its a good buy.

...now i am still waiting for somebody to answer my question as to where is the next Lakes?....with so much development underway in Bangkok there must be some good buys out there - anyone want to offer some suggestions ???

OK I will bite - I will make a forward prediction - The next Lakes will be the abandoned construction just next door, providing of course the construction company (still probably in deep freeze) gets its act together. The structure is all there and the concrete reinforcing seems to have been added.

Same height, same size (ish) as The Lakes.

Edited December 6, 2007 by pkrv

[Hampstead]

The Lakes

You mean the small man made water landmark nestled between a convention centre and a tobacco factory, umm great view!!!

and the singapore property market has doubled in prices over the last year, and not just in a few select projects as is the case here in bkk, but in most areas of singapore, even the second hand condo market

singapore is by far the most attractive investment for expats to invest in property if you compare bangkok to singapore, maybe the ones who choose to buy in bangkok are the poorer relations to those who buy in singapore

i will always choose singapore over bkk for property investments

The ONE aspect of the bkk property market which is attractive are the incredibly low rental prices of the units if compared to the actual value of the unit,

Typically i rent in the region of 40-80 k a month here in bkk, my current rent is 51k, which is around 3-4% of their values, compare this to other capital cities of asia and the ist world where you will be paying 10% of the units value for one year's rent

.......i get a better rental return on the condominium i own in Bangkok than the two i have in London....interested to learn where you can get 10% rental return???

Very very few properties in bkk are receiving 10% returns a year on their actual sale value, its just pure hyperbole by a few real estate agents on this forum pushing the great positive news spin on all property in bkk, 3-4% is more on the mark

Those that are lucky enough to receive this magical figure of 10% are mostly doing it through their strong contacts at various agencies. Right now in bkk there is over supply in the rental market. Not only do you see individuals owners compteting with eachother for tennants, they also find themselves competing with serviced appartments and also thai owners of buildings who only rent units out. For the last 2 years I have seen prices from friends rental agreements ranging in prices from 40k to the most expensive of 220k in nichahda park frozen due to the competitive nature of the bkk property rental market

As for the lakes, well its days were 2004-5 where 65k became 90-100k a sqm, but from 2005 onwards it has slowed considerably its rise in prices

so has many projects built during 2003-2005

the optimum year in bkk property was 2005, where demand was so great for the supply, it pushed prices in the same buildings by sometimes 50% in one year.

Today price rises in the same building are slowing, and with the supply glut coming onto the market then the year 2005 will be very hard to beat

But i guess you were just a little too positive in your spin to really hide the industry you are in my friend, good luck

Edited December 6, 2007 by Hampstead

[Irene]

well done Irene at 10m its a good buy.

...now i am still waiting for somebody to answer my question as to where is the next Lakes?....with so much development underway in Bangkok there must be some good buys out there - anyone want to offer some suggestions ???

OK I will bite - I will make a forward prediction - The next Lakes will be the abandoned construction just next door, providing of course the construction company (still probably in deep freeze) gets its act together. The structure is all there and the concrete reinforcing seems to have been added.

Same height, same size (ish) as The Lakes.

"That abandoned construction just next door" to the Lakes is no longer abandoned. It has become an office building called "Column" and reasonably occupied by many companies led by MFC Assets Management Co. The top portion of the building with the entrance at the back is a serviced- apartment section (not yet opened). At the side of this building is an incomplete car-park building with Foodland on the ground floor. The car parks are well used by office workers.

[chayatom]

The Lakes

You mean the small man made water landmark nestled between a convention centre and a tobacco factory, umm great view!!!

and the singapore property market has doubled in prices over the last year, and not just in a few select projects as is the case here in bkk, but in most areas of singapore, even the second hand condo market

singapore is by far the most attractive investment for expats to invest in property if you compare bangkok to singapore, maybe the ones who choose to buy in bangkok are the poorer relations to those who buy in singapore

i will always choose singapore over bkk for property investments

The ONE aspect of the bkk property market which is attractive are the incredibly low rental prices of the units if compared to the actual value of the unit,

Typically i rent in the region of 40-80 k a month here in bkk, my current rent is 51k, which is around 3-4% of their values, compare this to other capital cities of asia and the ist world where you will be paying 10% of the units value for one year's rent

.......i get a better rental return on the condominium i own in Bangkok than the two i have in London....interested to learn where you can get 10% rental return???

Very very few properties in bkk are receiving 10% returns a year on their actual sale value, its just pure hyperbole by a few real estate agents on this forum pushing the great positive news spin on all property in bkk, 3-4% is more on the mark

Those that are lucky enough to receive this magical figure of 10% are mostly doing it through their strong contacts at various agencies. Right now in bkk there is over supply in the rental market. Not only do you see individuals owners compteting with eachother for tennants, they also find themselves competing with serviced appartments and also thai owners of buildings who only rent units out. For the last 2 years I have seen prices from friends rental agreements ranging in prices from 40k to the most expensive of 220k in nichahda park frozen due to the competitive nature of the bkk property rental market

As for the lakes, well its days were 2004-5 where 65k became 90-100k a sqm, but from 2005 onwards it has slowed considerably its rise in prices

so has many projects built during 2003-2005

the optimum year in bkk property was 2005, where demand was so great for the supply, it pushed prices in the same buildings by sometimes 50% in one year.

Today price rises in the same building are slowing, and with the supply glut coming onto the market then the year 2005 will be very hard to beat

But i guess you were just a little too positive in your spin to really hide the industry you are in my friend, good luck

....err exactly what spin are you talking about??? My original post was complaining i could not buy a unit in the Lakes for what i felt was a reasonable price and i still cannot - you can try yourself if you think you can do better, its not spin its a fact. Just for the record i do not work in the residential property market but yes in commercial property.

I think you misread my mail - i agree a 3-5% yield is typical for a reasonable building in Bangkok(i get about 6% on my property here which i bouight 4 years ago), and this is better than the return i get on my properties in London(3-4%) i was asking where you can get a 10% return - you seem to think you can in most Capital cities in Asia which i don't think is the case - happy to be proved wrong if you can suggest where?