My Kids Are Thai - But What About Chinese-thais - Are They More "thai" Than Thai-farang Or Thai-indian?

[TonyLeung]

I think too many people think there is a clear cut division between Chinese Thais and other Thais. I dont really see any 'model' Thais on T.V Just lots of standard Thai people that don't look too much like Lao or Khymer Thais.

Can you really be a model in Thailand if not thai-chinese or thai-farang?

You can be a model if the majority of the population finds you attractive. if they dont, then you cant. see if you connect the dots.

[thaigene2]

I think too many people think there is a clear cut division between Chinese Thais and other Thais. I dont really see any 'model' Thais on T.V Just lots of standard Thai people that don't look too much like Lao or Khymer Thais.

Can you really be a model in Thailand if not thai-chinese or thai-farang?

These were the points I was trying to raise. It would be easy to say that the "central plateau" area with a history (not recent but over many hundreds of years) of northern chinese migrants contribute to lighter skin, and geographically higher spending power (cause they're in BKK) so the advertising and media are aimed at them...

But my hypothesis is that it goes beyond that - perhaps all part of the Wizard of Oz media-braiwashing that goes on here. ..TonyLeung (or whatever his name was) seems to pave the way with what he sees as his humorous photos...(actually Tony the first woman looks Chinese to me, the second looks Thai-farang -- a bit like my wife, mate..he, he..)

[kat]

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

So incredibly informed, and on the mark as usual.

[kat]

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

If Saudia Arabia starts to accept the Yuan I would put it at 50/50 that every female leuk krueng in Thailand is rounded up and auctioned off to the highest bidder to work as a maid and sex slave. The male luek krueng will definitely be murdered. The president of the USA will have no choice but to kneel at the feet of the Czar of China kissing his feet and begging him to take 2,000,000 virgin American girls as his personal consorts inexchange for economy aide for the American public whose GPD has fallen below Ethiopia. In 5 years, The US government will then have to concede California to Mexico, now a world super power.

.... And very funny, but while history and culture has a way of evolving, core values that have been around for thousands of years don't change that much.

[thaigene2]

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

If Saudia Arabia starts to accept the Yuan I would put it at 50/50 that every female leuk krueng in Thailand is rounded up and auctioned off to the highest bidder to work as a maid and sex slave. The male luek krueng will definitely be murdered. The president of the USA will have no choice but to kneel at the feet of the Czar of China kissing his feet and begging him to take 2,000,000 virgin American girls as his personal consorts inexchange for economy aide for the American public whose GPD has fallen below Ethiopia. In 5 years, The US government will then have to concede California to Mexico, now a world super power.

.... And very funny, but while history and culture has a way of evolving, core values that have been around for thousands of years don't change that much.

Wanna bet? Though not American, and in no rush to save the American virgins from the Emperor, if the guy pissed me off enough I'd be the first to quietly scurry around in the bushes looking for the first opportunity to bullseye him. And you know what? There would be ten thousand guys just like me from individualist societies doing EXACTLY the same thing - we'd be tripping over each other.. So much for thousands of years of collectivist-traditions. Sorry to disagree, but there is no "Asian Mysticism" that guarantees 'forever'...but you're right evolution has indeed taught many of us in the West...We will no longer always fight as a group (but sometimes we will), more likely we'll fight for ourselves - smartly and quietly.

[sonnyJ]

I think too many people think there is a clear cut division between Chinese Thais and other Thais. I dont really see any 'model' Thais on T.V Just lots of standard Thai people that don't look too much like Lao or Khymer Thais.

Can you really be a model in Thailand if not thai-chinese or thai-farang?

You can be a model if the majority of the population finds you attractive. if they dont, then you cant. see if you connect the dots.

I don't get it.

[Heng]

[SomeBloke]

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

[asiaworld]

This is NOT a racial question - it's meant to provoke some soul searching about why it's OK to satarise thai-indian and thai-farang (not to mention Burmese, Khmer and others) but not thai-chin (or others?)..

You see you already answered your question yourself ! > it IS the qestion of race !>plain & simple, don't kid yourselves..

mongoloid race>thai,chinese,khmer etc. doesn't raises any eyebrows,darker/lighter skin only ..Now indians & other caucasian race, seems out of place in thai worldview>hence 'kaek' for indians, but ok indians have gained sort of acceptance over the years (win by numbers)... As for the whiteys.. racial predjudice, pure & simple..(some of them look more asian,so get better acceptance by society)>> take off your rosecolored glasses & smell the somtam guys

[Johpa]

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

[thaigene2]

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

Yes, that's a summary of the main point..thanks. And are the media complicit, I guess was the other part of my question..

Regarding the SomeBloke post, wasn't the early migration from 'northern' china?

[Heng]

Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

It takes two to tango. The locals were giving the entire country away faster than anyone could take it, certainly long before there was any kind of media to promote the idea that "it's okay to sell up and forget all about the long term... oh, and that brother Heng is your friend and role model."

Also, resistance is truly and quickly futile if you believe it to be true. The (indigenous ethnic) Thais apparently believed it.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Heng

[thaigene2]

Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

It takes two to tango. The locals were giving the entire country away faster than anyone could take it, certainly long before there was any kind of media to promote the idea that "it's okay to sell up and forget all about the long term... oh, and that brother Heng is your friend and role model."

Also, resistance is truly and quickly futile if you believe it to be true. The (indigenous ethnic) Thais apparently believed it.

Except the "locals" weren't the ones 'giving it away'..But you're right,as long as they keep eating the gruel they'll remain docile..Seems to be the master plan according to some.

[Heng]

Myself I'd call it a master program, rather than plan, as IMO the takeover wasn't a concerted effort, but merely the result of two fairly different ways of life colliding, overlapping, with one side collapsing as a simple matter of physics.

[kat]

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

If Saudia Arabia starts to accept the Yuan I would put it at 50/50 that every female leuk krueng in Thailand is rounded up and auctioned off to the highest bidder to work as a maid and sex slave. The male luek krueng will definitely be murdered. The president of the USA will have no choice but to kneel at the feet of the Czar of China kissing his feet and begging him to take 2,000,000 virgin American girls as his personal consorts inexchange for economy aide for the American public whose GPD has fallen below Ethiopia. In 5 years, The US government will then have to concede California to Mexico, now a world super power.

.... And very funny, but while history and culture has a way of evolving, core values that have been around for thousands of years don't change that much.

Wanna bet? Though not American, and in no rush to save the American virgins from the Emperor, if the guy pissed me off enough I'd be the first to quietly scurry around in the bushes looking for the first opportunity to bullseye him. And you know what? There would be ten thousand guys just like me from individualist societies doing EXACTLY the same thing - we'd be tripping over each other.. So much for thousands of years of collectivist-traditions. Sorry to disagree, but there is no "Asian Mysticism" that guarantees 'forever'...but you're right evolution has indeed taught many of us in the West...We will no longer always fight as a group (but sometimes we will), more likely we'll fight for ourselves - smartly and quietly.

I'm not talking about "Asian Mysticism" I'm talking about history and culture, and the varying degrees of influence that holds from one society to another. There is absolutely no mysticism whatsoever in the progression of Asian feudal rural societies to the current paternalism of patron/client power relationships, and the religious roots of obedience and fate.

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

Yes, that's a summary of the main point..thanks. And are the media complicit, I guess was the other part of my question..

Regarding the SomeBloke post, wasn't the early migration from 'northern' china?

There were different migration patterns, one from Northeastern China and one from the central area of China, along different routes for different groups in the South.

[SomeBloke]

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

Actually, I was just trying to state the reason why Chinese-Thai or part Chinese-Thai are more accepted as being Thai than Farang or Khaek mix. On the larger scale, China has a much deeper connection with Thailand than Europe or India etc.

As to Bangkok Chinese elite causing Thais to assimilate to their E. Asian norm, that would in turn be the same as Central Thais imposing their culture and power upon the other regions of Thailand and neighbouring countries.

But aren't Asian capital cities of any cardinal point just assimlating to the Westernised Globalisation model?

[SomeBloke]

But the bottom line is that economically and politically, Thailand is an ethnic Chinese colony. At some point in the future, Thailand will align itself more closely with China than with the United States and the west. This will probably happen when the Yuan is accepted as payment in exchange for oil in the Middle East. The question then become whether the Thai-Farang luuk khreung, like my own kids, will be allowed to stay. I am beginning to accept that I would be asked to leave at that distant point in the future.

That sounds rather dramatic, but China has had "luk krungs" for centuries without feeling the need to ask them to leave or anything like cleansing them out. No reason to believe it'll be any different here. Mostly because a generation and a half down the road, they pretty much look like everyone else, usually complete with a local last name and flawless accent as well.

Historically Luuk Kreung have not always fared well in Asia during times of animosity between east and west. Currently there is a fairly positive relationship between China and the US. But when times get tougher and the competition for natural resources gets stiffer then things have the potential to change dramatically for the worse and racism inevitably appears.

I think the doggy doo doo begins to hit the fan when the dollar is no longer the monopoly currency for oil. The first shoe will drop when the Saudis accept Euros and we have the petroeuro rivaling the petrodollar. The second and really big shoe drops when they begin to accept the Yuan.

If Saudia Arabia starts to accept the Yuan I would put it at 50/50 that every female leuk krueng in Thailand is rounded up and auctioned off to the highest bidder to work as a maid and sex slave. The male luek krueng will definitely be murdered. The president of the USA will have no choice but to kneel at the feet of the Czar of China kissing his feet and begging him to take 2,000,000 virgin American girls as his personal consorts inexchange for economy aide for the American public whose GPD has fallen below Ethiopia. In 5 years, The US government will then have to concede California to Mexico, now a world super power.

.... And very funny, but while history and culture has a way of evolving, core values that have been around for thousands of years don't change that much.

Wanna bet? Though not American, and in no rush to save the American virgins from the Emperor, if the guy pissed me off enough I'd be the first to quietly scurry around in the bushes looking for the first opportunity to bullseye him. And you know what? There would be ten thousand guys just like me from individualist societies doing EXACTLY the same thing - we'd be tripping over each other.. So much for thousands of years of collectivist-traditions. Sorry to disagree, but there is no "Asian Mysticism" that guarantees 'forever'...but you're right evolution has indeed taught many of us in the West...We will no longer always fight as a group (but sometimes we will), more likely we'll fight for ourselves - smartly and quietly.

I'm not talking about "Asian Mysticism" I'm talking about history and culture, and the varying degrees of influence that holds from one society to another. There is absolutely no mysticism whatsoever in the progression of Asian feudal rural societies to the current paternalism of patron/client power relationships, and the religious roots of obedience and fate.

Thailand is entwined with Chinese culture and history. Most 'Tai' came down from Southern China only 800 years ago and assimilated with the Mon, Khymer, Malayic etc. groups to form modern Thais.

For centuries there's been a constant stream of Han and other Chinese migrating down and assimilating too.

Even the King is part Chinese.

You are making the same argument as noted anthropologist William Skinner made over 50 years ago that the Chinese are assimilating towards a Thai identity. Some of us would argue the opposite, that the Bangkok Chinese elite caused the Thais to assimilate their Southeast Asian culture towards a more East Asian norm.

Yes, that's a summary of the main point..thanks. And are the media complicit, I guess was the other part of my question..

Regarding the SomeBloke post, wasn't the early migration from 'northern' china?

There were different migration patterns, one from Northeastern China and one from the central area of China, along different routes for different groups in the South.

Yeah, the migrational history is quite complicated and confusing, with nobody too sure as to what's true due to so much assimlation, but it's safe to say the first unified Tai 'state' was Nanchao in what is now southern China's Yunnan province. Around the 7th centuryAD.

[Johpa]

Myself I'd call it a master program, rather than plan, as IMO the takeover wasn't a concerted effort, but merely the result of two fairly different ways of life colliding, overlapping, with one side collapsing as a simple matter of physics.

Sure, just like Tibet. Master program, master race, same totalitarian mindset. I for one am not particularly happy to see Han power and influence increase.

[Heng]

Not quite like Tibet. Tibet is more of the traditional colonial model of the distant past. The overseas Chinese "takeover" model is more like the Jewish method for coming into controlling the media and finance of various countries; although the Chinese method is usually all aspects of the economy. It's not a true concerted effort... it's just a natural course of events that occurs because of the attributes of a particular group of people.

[Johpa]

Not quite like Tibet. Tibet is more of the traditional colonial model of the distant past. The overseas Chinese "takeover" model is more like the Jewish method for coming into controlling the media and finance of various countries; although the Chinese method is usually all aspects of the economy. It's not a true concerted effort... it's just a natural course of events that occurs because of the attributes of a particular group of people.

I rest my case. So how do you say Sieg Heil in Mandarin?

Does 1936=2008?

[Heng]

Let's see how fast can you make a hinge first.

[disgruntled]

Nepotisim and cronyism have always been here. The Chinese started entering the Thai government just as Thailand was taking off with development. There were lots more offices opening up around the country which needed staffing. Go out to the middle of Esarn and check out some of the government offices and you'll find that Chinese-Thais are probably running them. As for the modeling, fashion in Thailand, that's a laugh in my view. You can see that some of the models that walk the runways have nothing special too them. They probably are just connected to someone in the shows. They've watched fashion TV and they take what they've seen and their personal arrogance and strike a pose. In other places the models act arrogant but here the arrogant act like models.

Overall, the media does have an effect. Just as the media coming out of America has had a major impact on the world the pop culture being pushed through the media here has an impact. The young kids flock to the J-pop and K-pop. It all comes and goes in and out of style. It's funny that Chinese pop music doesn't seem to be as popular with young chinese thais as taht from other east asian countries.

As for the stats of 200,000 PRC people in country on visa now, well, that must have some influence on the country. It is easy for Asians to pay cash for residency/ citizenship here from what I have heard. Corruption is at home here. It's too bad the people with real power here don't stop the corruption.

[TonyLeung]

China is a giant country. Thailand is a small country. It is only natural/inevitable that the Chinese would control Thailand.

[TonyLeung]

do you have a link to the 200,000 PRC people in Thailand?

[KhaoNiaw]

Yeah, the migrational history is quite complicated and confusing, with nobody too sure as to what's true due to so much assimlation, but it's safe to say the first unified Tai 'state' was Nanchao in what is now southern China's Yunnan province. Around the 7th centuryAD.

That could be closest to the mark yet.

When we get all this talk of elites. Are we talking about the history of these elites or the ordinary people? Not necessarily the same thing at all.

[Johpa]

China is a giant country. Thailand is a small country. It is only natural/inevitable that the Chinese would control Thailand.

Inevitable as in the Chinese control of Vietnam?

Yet here is poster number two who makes my case. Is it any wonder that a variety of historical determinism found such a receptive ground amongst the Han? Manifest destiny may become the relatively benign precursor of something far worse in the 21st century.

[Heng]

do you have a link to the 200,000 PRC people in Thailand?

I'm not sure how well published it is, but it's fairly common knowledge here that one inroad of PRC folks (and they aren't even too concerned that they are more closely related to the Nationalists than the PRC Chinese; in the big picture there isn't really a difference): and more importantly their relatives worldwide of all Chinese hyphen ____ (Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Indonesian, etc.) origins into the LOS were given free passes -Thai ID's and citizenship- by the Thai government pretty much no questions asked other than: are you a member of the Kuomintang? Over the past 30+ years, that's likely led to the influx of hundreds of thousands, because if you give a pass to one Chinaman, it's like giving a free pass to 10 more to be added to the house registry (a pretty simple procedure with a "Thai" relative in place) of each in the years and decades since.

And that's just one way to get over here.

[TonyLeung]

China is a giant country. Thailand is a small country. It is only natural/inevitable that the Chinese would control Thailand.

Inevitable as in the Chinese control of Vietnam?

Yet here is poster number two who makes my case. Is it any wonder that a variety of historical determinism found such a receptive ground amongst the Han? Manifest destiny may become the relatively benign precursor of something far worse in the 21st century.

i would be very surprised if there weren't the same Chinese influences and power segments in Vietnam as Thailand. Is this not the case?

Edited November 24, 2007 by TonyLeung

[Johpa]

China is a giant country. Thailand is a small country. It is only natural/inevitable that the Chinese would control Thailand.

Inevitable as in the Chinese control of Vietnam?

Yet here is poster number two who makes my case. Is it any wonder that a variety of historical determinism found such a receptive ground amongst the Han? Manifest destiny may become the relatively benign precursor of something far worse in the 21st century.

i would be very surprised if there weren't the same Chinese influences and power segments in Vietnam as Thailand. Is this not the case?

Thailand is controlled lock, stock, and barrel by the Sino-Thai elite. The same is not true in Vietnam and has not been true since the Vietnamese expelled the Han invaders centuries ago, one of the few people to expel Han occupiers. That is not to say that ethnic Chinese did/do not have a major interest in the Vietnamese economy, but they do not run the country as they do in Thailand.

[TonyLeung]

China is a giant country. Thailand is a small country. It is only natural/inevitable that the Chinese would control Thailand.

Inevitable as in the Chinese control of Vietnam?

Yet here is poster number two who makes my case. Is it any wonder that a variety of historical determinism found such a receptive ground amongst the Han? Manifest destiny may become the relatively benign precursor of something far worse in the 21st century.

i would be very surprised if there weren't the same Chinese influences and power segments in Vietnam as Thailand. Is this not the case?

Thailand is controlled lock, stock, and barrel by the Sino-Thai elite. The same is not true in Vietnam and has not been true since the Vietnamese expelled the Han invaders centuries ago, one of the few people to expel Han occupiers. That is not to say that ethnic Chinese did/do not have a major interest in the Vietnamese economy, but they do not run the country yet as they do in Thailand.

Give it some time...